When people fail

[Hashe]

A little while ago a friend of mine in ministry did something wrong – he sinned! The church he was working for asked him to step down from ministry and go find another job. I was sad for my friend that he had made a mistake, but more so for the church’s reaction. I wonder sometimes if people are too quick to come down ‘harsh on sin’.

Let’s consider Abraham. Twice (Gen 12:11-20, Gen 20) he lies about his wife Sarah. Twice Sarah is taken by a king. Twice Abraham is enriched by the king. Twice God intervenes to save the marriage. In these two stories, Abraham gets rich by lying about his wife. Was it a habitual sin?

I don’t think the lesson of the story is God wants us to lie to get rich! However, it does seem that God still shows his support and care for Abraham through bringing blessings out of his failures. It doesn’t seem like God is shaming Abraham. It doesn’t seem like God is undermining Abraham.

Now I know there are times where God is very strict with sin, in the Old and New Testaments. And sin is a serious problem. However it does make me wonder who much grace, care and support I give to people, whether in ministry or not, who struggle with a particular sin like Abraham did. Do I want to get rid of people who fall? Do I shame them? How does God want me to treat people who ‘fall’?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I think the first mistake we make is when we start thinking some people are in some kind of "ministry"

We are a bunch of Gentile sinners who need a bunch of forgiveness for a bunch of things we do wrong

No one is any more special than anyone else

We are on a level playing field and nobody should claim to have any "special anointing" or "ministry"

It amounts to the same thing as saying we need a Priest or a Bishop or a Cardinal or a Pope to access salvation

 

[Hashe]

I think the first mistake we make is when we start thinking some people are in some kind of "ministry"

We are a bunch of Gentile sinners who need a bunch of forgiveness for a bunch of things we do wrong

No one is any more special than anyone else

We are on a level playing field and nobody should claim to have any "special anointing" or "ministry"

It amounts to the same thing as saying we need a Priest or a Bishop or a Cardinal or a Pope to access salvation

I'm not sure that saying someone in ministry is the same as saying we need a priest. That is a big jump.
Saying someone is in ministry doesn't say they are 'special'. I think you are reading a lot into that.

 

[KingJ]

A little while ago a friend of mine in ministry did something wrong – he sinned! The church he was working for asked him to step down from ministry and go find another job. I was sad for my friend that he had made a mistake, but more so for the church’s reaction. I wonder sometimes if people are too quick to come down ‘harsh on sin’.

Let’s consider Abraham. Twice (Gen 12:11-20, Gen 20) he lies about his wife Sarah. Twice Sarah is taken by a king. Twice Abraham is enriched by the king. Twice God intervenes to save the marriage. In these two stories, Abraham gets rich by lying about his wife. Was it a habitual sin?

I don’t think the lesson of the story is God wants us to lie to get rich! However, it does seem that God still shows his support and care for Abraham through bringing blessings out of his failures. It doesn’t seem like God is shaming Abraham. It doesn’t seem like God is undermining Abraham.

Now I know there are times where God is very strict with sin, in the Old and New Testaments. And sin is a serious problem. However it does make me wonder who much grace, care and support I give to people, whether in ministry or not, who struggle with a particular sin like Abraham did. Do I want to get rid of people who fall? Do I shame them? How does God want me to treat people who ‘fall’?

My church puts them under a period of discipline. After, they are entitled to resume ministering. It comes with the position. They are never chased from the church though. In that respect I feel for your friend. Must be the type of church though. Perhaps there a minister is more a permanent / solo position?

 

[Hashe]

My church puts them under a period of discipline. After, they are entitled to resume ministering. It comes with the position. They are never chased from the church though. In that respect I feel for your friend. Must be the type of church though. Perhaps there a minister is more a permanent / solo position?

Even putting people in a period of discipline raises all sorts of issues. Is this putting them under shame?
The problem with this sort of way of dealing with issues is that it DOESN'T encourage others to come forward with issues. If they are struggling they have to way up the cost of coming forward. For some it suggests it is easier to struggle in silence then come forward and get things dealt with.

 

[KingJ]

Discipline is discipline, not shaming. Every Christian knows we battle the flesh. Every Christian knows the devil goes after leaders. Not dealing with the problem is to have a wolf leading the sheep. Not publicly declaring why the preacher is being placed under discipline is an injustice to the sheep he taught.

My church removes only if one is in a mortal sin.

 

[Secondhand Lion]

A little while ago a friend of mine in ministry did something wrong – he sinned! The church he was working for asked him to step down from ministry and go find another job. I was sad for my friend that he had made a mistake, but more so for the church’s reaction. I wonder sometimes if people are too quick to come down ‘harsh on sin’.

Let’s consider Abraham. Twice (Gen 12:11-20, Gen 20) he lies about his wife Sarah. Twice Sarah is taken by a king. Twice Abraham is enriched by the king. Twice God intervenes to save the marriage. In these two stories, Abraham gets rich by lying about his wife. Was it a habitual sin?

I don’t think the lesson of the story is God wants us to lie to get rich! However, it does seem that God still shows his support and care for Abraham through bringing blessings out of his failures. It doesn’t seem like God is shaming Abraham. It doesn’t seem like God is undermining Abraham.

Now I know there are times where God is very strict with sin, in the Old and New Testaments. And sin is a serious problem. However it does make me wonder who much grace, care and support I give to people, whether in ministry or not, who struggle with a particular sin like Abraham did. Do I want to get rid of people who fall? Do I shame them? How does God want me to treat people who ‘fall’?

Well, it depends what "ministry" he was in and what the sin was. God gives very specific instructions as to who can even participate in "ministry", depending what you are talking about.

Also, do not forget the guy in the First Apollos...no...First Paul church of Cointh. Paul gave very specific instructions to kick the man out (1 Corinthians 5), although they even got this wrong in the end also as the guy ended up repentant and needed forgiveness and allowed back in (2 Corinthians 2). As a side note...there is no indication that the man be given a "position of authority" though.

SL

 

[Hashe]

Discipline is discipline, not shaming. Every Christian knows we battle the flesh. Every Christian knows the devil goes after leaders. Not dealing with the problem is to have a wolf leading the sheep. Not publicly declaring why the preacher is being placed under discipline is an injustice to the sheep he taught.

My church removes only if one is in a mortal sin.

Nobody said anything about 'not dealing with the problem'. Of course you need to deal with the problem. The question is how? Do we do it in a way that encourages others to get their problems dealt with ? Or do we do it in a way that encourages people to keep their issues hidden?

Well, it depends what "ministry" he was in and what the sin was. God gives very specific instructions as to who can even participate in "ministry", depending what you are talking about.

Also, do not forget the guy in the First Apollos...no...First Paul church of Cointh. Paul gave very specific instructions to kick the man out (1 Corinthians 5), although they even got this wrong in the end also as the guy ended up repentant and needed forgiveness and allowed back in (2 Corinthians 2). As a side note...there is no indication that the man be given a "position of authority" though.

SL

This is the same Paul that had a huge fight with his senior pastor 'Barnabas' right?

 

[Secondhand Lion]

This is the same Paul that had a huge fight with his senior pastor 'Barnabas' right?

Huh? I assume you are talking about their disagreement about Mark? Even if you consider that a "huge fight", and even if you consider Barnabas his senior pastor, and even if you think that makes Paul wrong....what in the world would be the point? Are you suggesting Paul's teaching on who does and does not qualify for "ministry" was wrong? Or are you just suggesting that we can ignore his instruction about the man in fornication in 1 Corinthians?

What are you saying?

SL

 

[DPMartin]

A little while ago a friend of mine in ministry did something wrong – he sinned! The church he was working for asked him to step down from ministry and go find another job. I was sad for my friend that he had made a mistake, but more so for the church’s reaction. I wonder sometimes if people are too quick to come down ‘harsh on sin’.

Let’s consider Abraham. Twice (Gen 12:11-20, Gen 20) he lies about his wife Sarah. Twice Sarah is taken by a king. Twice Abraham is enriched by the king. Twice God intervenes to save the marriage. In these two stories, Abraham gets rich by lying about his wife. Was it a habitual sin?

I don’t think the lesson of the story is God wants us to lie to get rich! However, it does seem that God still shows his support and care for Abraham through bringing blessings out of his failures. It doesn’t seem like God is shaming Abraham. It doesn’t seem like God is undermining Abraham.

Now I know there are times where God is very strict with sin, in the Old and New Testaments. And sin is a serious problem. However it does make me wonder who much grace, care and support I give to people, whether in ministry or not, who struggle with a particular sin like Abraham did. Do I want to get rid of people who fall? Do I shame them? How does God want me to treat people who ‘fall’?

Just to be clear Abraham doesn’t lie to get rich, he claims that she is his sister because he perceives his life may be in danger if it is known they are husband and wife. You miss judge Abraham’s intention which was merely to be without threat of harm. Its not like the people he suspected didn’t turnout to have a serious interest in his wife, and they would have done to him what he feared, if the Lord God didn’t intervene. If you are traveling, are you stupid enough set yourself up as a easy mark when you might be carrying valuables? Besides, there are schools of thought that if one is a close enough relative, one was referred to as brother or sister and Sarai was Abram’s niece, which could have been said to be his sister.

The church may not have the right to judge your friend, but they being his employer have the right to fire an employee should that employee brake an agreement or expected trust. He must have broken the trust or agreement knowingly so he should expect the reward he got. If there was agreed bonuses for doing something out standing or meeting some goal he certainly would of expected to receive the reward for that, wouldn’t he?

 

[RANDOR]

Just over the mountain from us in a very large city, same thing happened...........but a tad bit different. TRUE STORY

He was a baptist preacher. One night after service he went home and went to his bedroom and fell on his knees.
He said Lord, please, please let me know if I'm teaching my flock right.
After 5 hrs on his knees........yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Jesus showed up and hugged him and loved on him for awhile.

Next Sunday he couldn't wait for services to start, he couldn't hold it any longer. He had to share what happened to him.

So excited, He shared everything. Later that evening he got a call from the elders.....yep, you guessed it....they got rid of him.

You can sit in church all your life and never come to know Christ. Just know of Him.

I've told many pastors......get with it..tell the people what they need to hear...not want they want to hear.

Tick Tock...Tick Tock................time is a wastin.

 

[Risen Angel]

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" ( Romans 3:23)

Why do Christians so often think that they are suddenly better than the rest of the human race? I saw a sign posted outside a local church recently that read, 'Jesus is the one who knows all your flaw and loves you anyway,' And, it is the truth. God knows all of me; there is nothing hidden from his sight: no thought, word, or deed.

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:28)

Even the thought in my mind has already enacted the sin. No man is pure except the one who gave his life for all of us. There seems to be this new reasoning in church circles that if a person attends church regularly or holds a leadership position, that Christ's words are no longer valid. The church begins to judge based on human standards. Let me let you in on a what God was trying to get across.

We are all in the same boat - ALL OF US.

There is no sudden time where we become 'sin-free.' That is why Christ offered his life upon the cross. Contrary to popular main-stream Christianity... the more sin we have, the greater the darkness he rescues us from - the more appreciation we have for God's grace. Without sin what relevance is Christ? We all sin. God said it, I believe it, and Christ died for it. Why do people insist on cheapening his sacrfice by claiming we no longer need it?

I will always need it; and, it draws me closer to him.

There seems to be a hierarchy developing in churches these days, reverting back to an old system of thought; and, discounting all that has been learned. Paul said it quite eloquently: "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Timothy 1:15) These words come from a man who established the church as we know it. He gave his life to establish it... why? Because Christ called him.

Yet, examine his attitude: and compare it to modern day, so called church leaders. These days many leaders try to be perfect, appear perfect, or are perfect. The founder of the church consider himself a complete screw up in need of God - DESPERATELY. It is the desperation of sin that brings us to the Lord, not perfection or comfort. If Christ came into the world to save sinners then I damn well want to be one!

Please don't take these words and twist them.

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (1 Corinthians 12:9)

Take a minute and just reflect on what message God is bringing us. When I think I am beyond sin, I abandon God. In spite of the knowledge that all have sinned; and, that all certainly includes me. When I come to understand that I sin, I turn to God. Anyone who tells you that they are without sin is a liar; so, why should we expect it of any member of the church?

The time for games is over, my friends.

 

[FHII]

I like what Risen Angel had to say... I'd just like to put it in my own words and maybe add a thought or two to it to give it a witness.

Most people don't respect the preacher in the ministry. I say it that way because a ministry as defined by the Bible is a leader and the congregation. But the preacher himself is a human and thus a sinner who is going to sin. People love the story of Jesus, the harlot, and the line "whoever is without sin cast the first stone!". Well, they don't really.... But they love the line "Go, and sin no more!" Here's the problem, even after you come to Christ and are saved by grace through faith, that's impossible!

Like Risen Angel pointed out, Paul claimed to be the chief sinner. Not "was" the chief sinner (killer of Christians and all), but present tense "chief sinner". This is what people don't understand when they put a Pastor out because "he sinned". Now, back in NT days, there wasn't any of that. Paul WAS the ministry. Peter WAS the ministry. You either followed them or you weren't in the fold. If you didn't want to forgive Paul or Peter or any of the annointed, YOU were the one out of luck, not them.

I read Arnie's message which is the 2nd post, and I think I understand what he's getting at, but I do disagree. There are preachers and pastors who ARE specially annointed, but the are still fully human and fully sinners. If they manage their job well, they should be forgiven.

In the OP Hashe mentions Abraham and his "sin". Trust me, there are a lot of heroes of the Bible who could not be members of many churches (emphasis on the little "c") today, much less Pastor them.

As for me.... I am more interested in whether a preacher is preaching the Truth than what he does in his flesh.