When the Bible says, "Dead", what does it mean?

[Davy]

I think that this death we are discussing is the separation of our new creation from the old man of flesh, and that while we still contend with the old man, yet we have the winning hand. Only we are not consistent in our trust in Jesus, and therefore are not consistent in our overcoming our flesh.

Much love!

Like I pointed, repentance to Christ for the believer is STILL NECESSARY while in this flesh. Today we have the PROMISE of being a 'new creature', it does not mean we have literally put on immortality yet though. That won't happen until Jesus returns in our near future.

Apostle Paul gave a definitive contrasting example in Galatians 5 when he said for us to 'walk by The Spirit' and we won't be doing anything that is against God's law. But if we walk by our flesh, then it means we put ourselves back under God's law, because Paul taught God's law is not made for the righteous, but for the sinner, and ungodly.

I know countless... Christian believers like myself that have done slip ups and sinned after they believed on Jesus and were baptized. I don't go around condemning them because I know I myself am under that falling short of the Glory of God. I'm not Christ, not my own Christ, and I know I never will be 'a Christ'. Yet that is the false idea some fakes in the pulpits are trying to push, the lie that we can become our own Christ without Jesus! Nope! ain't never gonna' happen. Only once released from this flesh to be with Jesus when He appears will in 'likeness' appearance be like Him. Yet we still... will never be Christ.

 

[marks]

But if we walk by our flesh, then it means we put ourselves back under God's law,

I don't think that is correct. Paul taught that we are dead to the Law. And that is why I point to that Paul also taught we've been separated - dead - from our sinful flesh, so we are no longer identified as the man born from Adam, the sinner, but now are the child of God, who is tasked with controlling our sinful flesh.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I think that this death we are discussing is the separation of our new creation from the old man of flesh, and that while we still contend with the old man, yet we have the winning hand. Only we are not consistent in our trust in Jesus, and therefore are not consistent in our overcoming our flesh.

Much love!

I don't 'spiritualize' God's Word. I only recognize when God Himself is giving us a parable, analogy, allegory, or idiom in order to more easily explain one of His Truths.

But that's what many do, spiritualize the idea of Apostle Paul's "new creature" and "old man" idea. Paul was simply using those ideas as analogies for something literal.

Lord Jesus in John 3 explained the idea of being "born again", which the meaning is actually 'born from above'. He was pointing to a literal... event, not a philosophical one.

To be born again is about our 'spirit' that dwells inside our flesh being made alive by The Spirit. All born in the flesh are assigned Adam's sin which is unto death of one's soul. Being 'born again' by Faith on Jesus Christ means The Spirit actually changing our 'liable to die' state of our soul with spirit that dwells inside... our flesh body. This is why Jesus told Nicodemus 'that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit.'

Thus it is our 'spirit' inside our flesh that is made a "new creature", NOT our flesh body, which is a body of sin.

 

[Davy]

Consider . . .

Romans 7:16-21 KJV
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

It is no more I, but sin that lives in me.

So then it used to be "I" that was the sinner, but now it is "no more I", but sin that lives in me, that is, in my flesh.

Much love!

Sorry, but Apostle Paul there is NOT teaching us to DISREGARD sin that our flesh body causes us. Instead, that is what the devil teaches, trying to get us to forget the need to inspect ourselves for sin in our walk with Jesus.

Paul is simply revealing that we will continue... to sin while in the flesh. He doesn't say just what to do about it there, but in other of his Epistles admonishes us to beware of sin and don't sin. Yet he still said this about the brethren before he left...

Acts 20:27-31
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
KJV


How could that above even be possible, IF... it's true that those in Christ cannot sin anymore? Of course there's those who love to just bury their head in sand, and disregard that, to their own destruction.

 

[marks]

I don't 'spiritualize' God's Word. I only recognize when God Himself is giving us a parable, analogy, allegory, or idiom in order to more easily explain one of His Truths.

But that's what many do, spiritualize the idea of Apostle Paul's "new creature" and "old man" idea. Paul was simply using those ideas as analogies for something literal.

Lord Jesus in John 3 explained the idea of being "born again", which the meaning is actually 'born from above'. He was pointing to a literal... event, not a philosophical one.

To be born again is about our 'spirit' that dwells inside our flesh being made alive by The Spirit. All born in the flesh are assigned Adam's sin which is unto death of one's soul. Being 'born again' by Faith on Jesus Christ means The Spirit actually changing our 'liable to die' state of our soul with spirit that dwells inside... our flesh body. This is why Jesus told Nicodemus 'that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit.'

Thus it is our 'spirit' inside our flesh that is made a "new creature", NOT our flesh body, which is a body of sin.

I agree with what you've said here completely. We really do live in a sinful flesh body, which will not be changed until our physical death/transformation. We really are a new creature, a spirit child of God, born from Him. That flesh body really does push us to sin, and the new spirit really does have power to not sin. And I think the most of us spend our lives working out how to get that freedom we know in our spirit to overwhelm the bad behavior that comes out of the flesh.

I find 2 very key factors, one is to remember that nothing will take me away from God, since my reconciliation is based on Christ and not myself, which enables me to keep my heart open to God in trust, the other is to remember that any push to sin is not because I - the new person - am still defective, still under sin's power, but because that's what corrupt flesh does, it pushes us to sin, and I'm free to say no.

The proof our our ability to not sin is found in the next 5 minutes. Can you fill you mind with Christ, and focus on righteousness, for 5 minutes? I'm betting yes. And having done for 5 minutes, can we do 10?

I don't say it's impossible for us to stop sinning completely in this life, but I do find the Bible seems to portray that we might not. It seems to me to allow that we will continue to battle sin all our earthly lives.

I believe faith overcomes all.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Paul there is NOT teaching us to DISREGARD sin that

That's not what I'm saying either.

He doesn't say just what to do about it there, but in other of his Epistles admonishes us to beware of sin and don't sin.

Put off the old man, and put on the new. Put to death your members that are upon the earth. Things like that. Many things like that.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I don't think that is correct. Paul taught that we are dead to the Law. And that is why I point to that Paul also taught we've been separated - dead - from our sinful flesh, so we are no longer identified as the man born from Adam, the sinner, but now are the child of God, who is tasked with controlling our sinful flesh.

Much love!

I assure you, it most certainly is... correct. Many brethren in Christ still sin today! And some go to jail for it!

So how is it you don't seem to understand Paul when he explained what God's law is for? (see 1 Timothy 1).

Especially in the Christian nations, we are all... under that, God's laws against murder, rape, thefts, perjury, adultery, etc....

So are you telling me you don't know any believer in Christ that has fallen away to a sin written in God's laws? I won't believe you if you say yes to that, and continuing this conversation with you would just be a waste of my time, because you would be showing you're just playin' around here.

 

[marks]

I assure you, it most certainly is... correct. Many brethren in Christ still sin today! And some go to jail for it!

So how is it you don't seem to understand Paul when he explained what God's law is for? (see 1 Timothy 1).

Especially in the Christian nations, we are all... under that, God's laws against murder, rape, thefts, perjury, adultery, etc....

So are you telling me you don't know any believer in Christ that has fallen away to a sin written in God's laws? I won't believe you if you say yes to that, and continuing this conversation with you would just be a waste of my time, because you would be showing you're just playin' around here.

If you are under God's Law, then you are of necessity condemned by it, because that's what God's law does.

I'm not talking about human courts.

But if you are under God's law, you are condemned, because you are guilty. With all that means.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

That's not what I'm saying either.

Put off the old man, and put on the new. Put to death your members that are upon the earth. Things like that. Many things like that.

Much love!

You are trying to apply that in the philosophical sense only.

Paul's "old man" idea of Ephesians 4:22 and Colossians 3:9 is used in a different sense than in the Romans 6:6-7 Scripture.

In the Romans 6 example, as I showed, when Paul said those who are dead (literally flesh dead) have been freed from sin, that is meant literally, i.e., you aren't here on earth in a flesh body to sin anymore at that point.

But the "old man" idea in those other two Scriptures is about our controlling... our flesh wants and lusts WHILE STILL ALIVE in the flesh on this earth. And IF... we could be perfect in controlling those flesh wants and lusts, then we would not need Jesus Christ, so it's vanity to even think we can be perfect while in this flesh.

 

[marks]

You are trying to apply that in the philosophical sense only.

Not at all! In a very real sense.

Much love!

 

[marks]

In the Romans 6 example, as I showed, when Paul said those who are dead (literally flesh dead) have been freed from sin, that is meant literally, i.e., you aren't here on earth in a flesh body to sin anymore at that point.

While what I'm telling you is that we right now have the power over sin, only that we don't consistently walk in that power. It seems that you may be thinking that IF we sin now as Christians, it's because we must, we have to, no choice, unable to not. Is that what you think?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And IF... we could be perfect in controlling those flesh wants and lusts, then we would not need Jesus Christ, so it's vanity to even think we can be perfect while in this flesh.

It's only in Jesus Christ that we have power over sin, as our new live is because He lives in us. Walk worthy of the vocation to which you've been called. Can you? Can I?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I agree with what you've said here completely. We really do live in a sinful flesh body, which will not be changed until our physical death/transformation. We really are a new creature, a spirit child of God, born from Him. That flesh body really does push us to sin, and the new spirit really does have power to not sin. And I think the most of us spend our lives working out how to get that freedom we know in our spirit to overwhelm the bad behavior that comes out of the flesh.

Well, that "which will not be changed until our physical death/transformation" applied to the flesh shows you don't understand the 1 Corinthians 15 'change' as taught by Apostle Paul. And that kind of, is one of the roots of what I'm trying to reveal to you about Paul's teaching of the "old man", "new creature", and Christ's "born again", etc.

Per 1 Corinthians 15, and 2 Corinthians 5, and Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, and Matthew 10:28, our flesh is NOT what is changed. Our 'spirit' that lives inside our flesh body is NOT made of flesh. It is not material matter of this earthly dimension world. It is made up of Spirit from that other dimension, the Heavenly. Flesh and blood cannot go there, like Paul showed in 1 Corinthians 15:49-50.

Understanding that then, brings what Paul and Lord Jesus taught about those things more down to the science level, and not the philosophy level. We each have a spirit, soul, and flesh body, and our spirit with soul are always together, but our spirit-soul can... be separated from our flesh body. The 'change' on the "last trump" is about our flesh body being cast off, we won't need it anymore.

 

[Davy]

It's only in Jesus Christ that we have power over sin, as our new live is because He lives in us. Walk worthy of the vocation to which you've been called. Can you? Can I?

Much love!

Can you be perfect in that walk? Can I? Nope. And I have no problem admitting that I can never be perfect in this flesh like Lord Jesus was. That is why I defer to His saving Grace to save me from this miserable state of this body of corruption! I KNOW it is not a body for His future Kingdom.

 

[Davy]

While what I'm telling you is that we right now have the power over sin, only that we don't consistently walk in that power. It seems that you may be thinking that IF we sin now as Christians, it's because we must, we have to, no choice, unable to not. Is that what you think?

Much love!

I never... inferred such an idea as you say, as if I'm saying or thinking we "must, we have to, no choice" but to sin. That's silly, and you're letting the devil talk with that idea.

I'm telling you what God's Word teaches, and it's not what you are teaching, but you aren't meaning just that we have power over sin, that's not what all you are including in your theory from men. You are trying to say those in Christ CAN be PERFECT LIKE JESUS CHRIST. And to that, I say those who think that are DELUSIONAL. Let me tell you why...

Christ's faithful can ONLY be 'counted'... as 'perfect'. And that is the condition when we maintain our 'walk' with Jesus, listening to and following The Holy Spirit, our Guide. The reason why we can ONLY be 'counted' perfect, is because of Galatians 3:22. Any idea that goes against that Galatians 3:22 Truth is a lie from the devil. How?

Maybe you're not aware of this, but some of the occult secret societies actually teach their members that Jesus Christ was one of them, and that they... themselves... have the POWER to become their OWN Christ!

Did you grasp that? Become your OWN Christ? Yeah! And they mean it this way. They falsely teach that Jesus was one of their initiates, which of course would mean Jesus ain't God, but just a human man, which of course is false. But they also falsely teach that 'The Christ' is a separate idea from the man Jesus, like a Force anyone can connect to through mysticism! Thus they falsely teach that Buddha was a Christ, Mohamed was a Christ, Zoroaster was a Christ, etc. They even call that Christ force by the title "Christ Consciousness", or "Cosmic Consciousness".

 

[marks]

Well, that "which will not be changed until our physical death/transformation" applied to the flesh shows you don't understand the 1 Corinthians 15 'change' as taught by Apostle Paul. And that kind of, is one of the roots of what I'm trying to reveal to you about Paul's teaching of the "old man", "new creature", and Christ's "born again", etc.

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Romans 7:24 KJV
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 8:23 KJV
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I never... inferred such an idea as you say, as if I'm saying or thinking we "must, we have to, no choice" but to sin. That's silly, and you're letting the devil talk with that idea.

What I'm doing is asking you for clarification.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Can you be perfect in that walk? Can I? Nope.

Can I be perfectly sinless? If I say no, does that let me off the hook from God's call to be holy as He is holy? Is He giving us an impossible command? Impossible without Christ, that's for certain! In Christ, well, I think the answer is, Be it to you according to your faith.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That is why I defer to His saving Grace to save me from this miserable state of this body of corruption! I KNOW it is not a body for His future Kingdom.

Yes, absolutely!

Much love!

 

[Davy]

I really feel sorry for those on man's false 'once saved, always saved' (OSAS) doctrines from the devil. Many of those are not being taught to inspect themsevles for sin, because they don't believe they can... sin anymore, thinking there is a POWER over them that makes it impossible of their ever having sin anymore!

That kind of thinking is why there is SO MUCH SIN in those beth-aven congregations today! (beth-aven is Hebrew for 'house of vanity'). Because of those devils teaching those brethren such falseness that they no longer have need to repent to Jesus of anything, because they can't do anything wrong ever again, there is going to be a many closed door upon those when Lord Jesus does... return.

 

[marks]

Our 'spirit' that lives inside our flesh body is NOT made of flesh. It is not material matter of this earthly dimension world. It is made up of Spirit from that other dimension, the Heavenly.

Somehow, we're speaking past each other, or something! We are not communicating very well I'm afraid.

As you said, of course, what is born of flesh is flesh, and what is born of spirit is spirit. We are spirit children of God alive in flesh bodies that are children of Adam.

Much love!