When was the Old Covenant done away with ???

[dan p]

Hi to all , and no matter what forum I am on , there are many believers that say the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant and what is also known as the Old Testament speak of the same thing .and is inforce today .

Hebrews 9:15 , says the the Cross of Christ PAID for all the Sins that were committed under the FIRST TESTAMENT .

Verse 15 , And for this cause HE is the MEDIATOR of the New Covenant , that by means of DEATH , for the REDEMPTION of the Transgressions or sins that were UNDER the First Covenant .

So , we see that the Cross of Jesus paid for the SINS committed under the First Covenant .

And we see a change from the OT to the N C , and this is why we are no longer under the Law as Galatians point out . , that we are NOT under the Law , but under Grace , Gal 5:18 and Gal 5:4 .

The Mosaic Covenant was a TEMPORARY COVENANT as Hebrews 8:7 -8 .

The only Covenant that have yet to be fulfill are the Davidic , Palestinian , New , and the Abrahamic Covenants that will be implemented during the Milleninial Kingdom .

dan p

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Heb.8
[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Who is the "them" spoken of?
What was the old agreement that was made?

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

What were the "laws" that was put into their minds and why does Paul us the plural form; "laws" if he always spoke of ALL of God's laws as one?


.

 

[veteran]

Dan p said:
Hi to all , and no matter what forum I am on , there are many believers that say the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant and what is also known as the Old Testament speak of the same thing .and is inforce today

That is a totally FALSE statement to begin with. I'm pretty sure dan p knows it too.

The "Old Covenant" is not what the KJV translators called the "Old Testament". There's a major difference.

The Old Testament includes the Books of the prophets, the Psalms, and other Books not of the law of Moses. The first FIVE BOOKS of The Old Testament make up the law, what's called the Pentatuch (penta means five).

Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles preached about the New Covenant from the Old Testament Books. In 2 Peter 3, Apostle Peter said to be mindful of what the OT prophets wrote, and that was after Christ had died on the cross to bring the New Covenant through His Blood.

There is prophecy in the Old Testament Books that cover all the way into God's future Eternity!

So don't let those like dan p fool you, for he's only trying to get you away from understanding those unfulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament Books.

 

[dan p]

That is a totally FALSE statement to begin with. I'm pretty sure dan p knows it too.

The "Old Covenant" is not what the KJV translators called the "Old Testament". There's a major difference.

The Old Testament includes the Books of the prophets, the Psalms, and other Books not of the law of Moses. The first FIVE BOOKS of The Old Testament make up the law, what's called the Pentatuch (penta means five).

Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles preached about the New Covenant from the Old Testament Books. In 2 Peter 3, Apostle Peter said to be mindful of what the OT prophets wrote, and that was after Christ had died on the cross to bring the New Covenant through His Blood.

There is prophecy in the Old Testament Books that cover all the way into God's future Eternity!

So don't let those like dan p fool you, for he's only trying to get you away from understanding those unfulfilled prophecies in the Old Testament Books.

Hi to all and the Greek word DIATHEKE is translated by the follwing English ;

#1 , Covenant
#2 , Agreement

#3 , Contract

#5 , Testament

And will you give a verse where they preached the New Covenant ???

 

[bud02]

Eccl you will never understand it until you make the distinction between the 10 commandments spoken and written by God and the Mosaic laws written by Moses to govern the people.

When God spoke the 10 they immediately became law that all creation was subject to. He spoke in the same manner when He spoke all creation into being.
When He spoke the 10 commandments it not only applied from that moment forward but also applied to everyone before they were spoken; from Adam to Moses. Now maybe you can understand what Paul wrote in Romans 5. That by one mans sin all were condemned to death. Now condemning everyone to death because of one mans sin is not a very fair proposition is it? and God completely understands that. As Paul also says in Romans 5 death rained from Adam to Moses. Those 10 laws that God had now spoke and written will be applied to all men from Adam to Moses and to the ends of the earth, when He spoke it became the law over all creation from beginning to end. They in effect have and will always be a part of Gods creation. In the same manner Jesus life on the cross did not simply apply from that moment forward but was also applied to all men from Adam, it to applied to all of creation from beginning to end. So that they also will be saved by grace and not of works. It applied both to those before the law came, and after. Can you now see why the law came? Without it all men were condemned to death by Adams single sin. With it all men become accountable to Gods spoken law, the 10 commandments. With Jesus we are forgiven our transgression of the law, with out Jesus we suffer the penalty of the law.

The law of Moses is a completely different law written by Moses under the inspiration of God to govern the people. Moses wrote that the Levis were to place this law next to the Tabernacle "the ark that contained the 10 commandments " as a witness against the Hebrews. They never kept those laws and just as Moses said it became a witness against them, they did not keep those governing laws as God instructed them threw Moses. As you can see the law of Moses and the Law that God spoke into being are two completely different things. The Law that is written on the hearts you quoted in Jeremiah are the 10 commandments not the law of Moses.

 

[Vengle53]

Hi to all , and no matter what forum I am on , there are many believers that say the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant and what is also known as the Old Testament speak of the same thing .and is inforce today .

Hebrews 9:15 , says the the Cross of Christ PAID for all the Sins that were committed under the FIRST TESTAMENT .

Verse 15 , And for this cause HE is the MEDIATOR of the New Covenant , that by means of DEATH , for the REDEMPTION of the Transgressions or sins that were UNDER the First Covenant .

So , we see that the Cross of Jesus paid for the SINS committed under the First Covenant .

And we see a change from the OT to the N C , and this is why we are no longer under the Law as Galatians point out . , that we are NOT under the Law , but under Grace , Gal 5:18 and Gal 5:4 .

The Mosaic Covenant was a TEMPORARY COVENANT as Hebrews 8:7 -8 .

The only Covenant that have yet to be fulfill are the Davidic , Palestinian , New , and the Abrahamic Covenants that will be implemented during the Milleninial Kingdom .

dan p

Some, not you, have driven themselves to the point of seeing spiders and creeping things in the shadows on the wall as they desperately cling to trying to see proof for what they prefer to believe. How sad.

The Old Law Covenant was not needed to expose intentional wickedness. There are many wicked things that we did not need to be told were wicked in order that we might know they are wicked. Being able to see this point is a study project by itself.

The Old Law was put in place to convict man of all ungodliness. So while it does indeed punish intentional wickedness it served the even more important purpose of exposing the presence and operation of sin in all men.

We see that there were deliberate willfully committed sins under the law for which no sacrifice was offered but the offenders own death.

Then there were sins for which sacrifice was to be offered.

We are fools to ignore this differentiation of sins under the Law. Paying attention to these things is how we are now to benefit from that Law having been. But we in our own wisdom have at times believed that as the ransom of Christ is for the sins of the whole world, every sin we commit prior to accepting God's grace is coverable. Such is man made doctrine.

Such man made doctrine causes many reasoning people in this world to turn away where they might otherwise have listened to the message of God's grace through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus. Even many who blindly accept that the ransom by Jesus covers all sins are yet silently troubled in the spirit knowing something does not quite seem right. It does not seem right that God would give grace for the purpose of harboring lovers of evil who take joy in feeding their lusts regardless of who they hurt.

It does not seem right because it is not right. And those that say Jesus ransom covers all sins of men are even without realizing it maligning God due to their having not paid attention to the lessons that Old Law taught us.

That Old Law has served its purpose. Any attempt to continue it is like saying we have not yet learned what it was put in place to teach us. It is like saying we yet need be under a schoolmaster to yet lead us to Christ.

 

[charlesj]

Hi to all , and no matter what forum I am on , there are many believers that say the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant and what is also known as the Old Testament speak of the same thing .and is inforce today .

Hebrews 9:15 , says the the Cross of Christ PAID for all the Sins that were committed under the FIRST TESTAMENT .

Verse 15 , And for this cause HE is the MEDIATOR of the New Covenant , that by means of DEATH , for the REDEMPTION of the Transgressions or sins that were UNDER the First Covenant .

So , we see that the Cross of Jesus paid for the SINS committed under the First Covenant .

And we see a change from the OT to the N C , and this is why we are no longer under the Law as Galatians point out . , that we are NOT under the Law , but under Grace , Gal 5:18 and Gal 5:4 .

The Mosaic Covenant was a TEMPORARY COVENANT as Hebrews 8:7 -8 .

The only Covenant that have yet to be fulfill are the Davidic , Palestinian , New , and the Abrahamic Covenants that will be implemented during the Milleninial Kingdom .

dan p

Since you quoted Gal 5 twice, I would like to quote Gal 5 (the whole) from the Complete Jewish Bible.





5

　[sup]1　[/sup]What the Messiah has freed us for is freedom! Therefore, stand firm, and don’t let yourselves be tied up again to a yoke of slavery. [sup]2　[/sup]Mark my words—I, Sha’ul, tell you that if you undergo b’rit-milah the Messiah will be of no advantage to you at all! [sup]3　[/sup]Again, I warn you: any man who undergoes b’rit-milah is obligated to observe the entire Torah! [sup]4　[/sup]You who are trying to be declared righteous by God through legalism have severed yourselves from the Messiah! You have fallen away from God’s grace! [sup]5　[/sup]For it is by the power of the Spirit, who works in us because we trust and are faithful, that we confidently expect our hope of attaining righteousness to be fulfilled. [sup]6　[/sup]When we are united with the Messiah Yeshua, neither being circumcised nor being uncircumcised matters; what matters is trusting faithfulness expressing itself through love. 7. you were running the race well; who has stopped you from following the truth? [sup]8　[/sup]Whatever means of persuasion he used was not from the One who calls you. [sup]9　[/sup]"It takes only a little hametz to leaven the whole batch of dough." [sup]10　[/sup]I am confident that since you are united with the Lord, you will take no other view; and I am confident that the one who has been disturbing you, whoever he may be, will have to bear his punishment. 11. And as for me, brothers, if I am still preaching that circumcision is necessary, why am I still being persecuted? If that were the case, my preaching about the execution-stake would cause no offense whatever. [sup]12　[/sup]I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves! 13. for, brothers, you were called to be free. Only do not let that freedom become an excuse for allowing your old nature to have its way. Instead, serve one another in love. [sup]14　[/sup]For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: "Love your neighbor as yourself"; [sup]15　[/sup]but if you go on snapping at each other and tearing each other to pieces, watch out, or you will be destroyed by each other! 16. What I am saying is this: run your lives by the Spirit. Then you will not do what your old nature wants. [sup]17　[/sup]For the old nature wants what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit wants what is contrary to the old nature. These oppose each other, so that you find yourselves unable to carry out your good intentions. [sup]18　[/sup]But if you are led by the Spirit, then you are not in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism. 19 . And it is perfectly evident what the old nature does. It expresses itself in sexual immorality, impurity and indecency; [sup]20　[/sup]involvement with the occult and with drugs; in feuding, fighting, becoming jealous and getting angry; in selfish ambition, factionalism, intrigue [sup]21　[/sup]and envy; in drunkenness, orgies and things like these. I warn you now as I have warned you before: those who do such things will have no share in the Kingdom of God! 22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [sup]23　[/sup]humility, self control. Nothing in the Torah stands against such things. 24. Moreover, those who belong to the Messiah Yeshua have put their old nature to death on the stake, along with its passions and desires. [sup]25　[/sup]Since it is through the Spirit that we have Life, let it also be through the Spirit that we order our lives day by day. 26. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.



I really don't like the way most English Bibles uses the word "law" and "the law." The Torah means "instructions, or teachings" and not "the law." I know that originally the first five books of Moses was called "Torah". Years later, after the Prophets (Nevi'im) and Writings (K'tuvim) were added the Jews took the first letters of Torah, Nevi'im & K'tuvim, added vowels, and came up with Tanakh. The Jews call what we call the "Old Testament" the Tanakh. Later, as time went on, they started to call the Tanakh "the law." I am guessing the translators of our English Bible chose to use "law or the law" instead of Torah.
The name Tanakh is about as misleading as Old Testament. The apostles and Jesus called Genesis through Malachi "Scriptures." We know Genesis though Malachi is NOT the Old Testament, but that is what we call it.

This is about the same with "ten commandments." When God gave the Ten, He referred to it as "The Ten Words." (In the Greek, it is "decalogue." Deca means ten and logue means words, that is "decalogos.")

Dan, I know I'm not "proving" anything regarding your subject, but it fits in with the subject.

 

[dan p]

Since you quoted Gal 5 twice, I would like to quote Gal 5 (the whole) from the Complete Jewish Bible.





5

　[sup]1　[/sup]What the Messiah has freed us for is freedom! Therefore, stand firm, and don’t let yourselves be tied up again to a yoke of slavery. [sup]2　[/sup]Mark my words—I, Sha’ul, tell you that if you undergo b’rit-milah the Messiah will be of no advantage to you at all! [sup]3　[/sup]Again, I warn you: any man who undergoes b’rit-milah is obligated to observe the entire Torah! [sup]4　[/sup]You who are trying to be declared righteous by God through legalism have severed yourselves from the Messiah! You have fallen away from God’s grace! [sup]5　[/sup]For it is by the power of the Spirit, who works in us because we trust and are faithful, that we confidently expect our hope of attaining righteousness to be fulfilled. [sup]6　[/sup]When we are united with the Messiah Yeshua, neither being circumcised nor being uncircumcised matters; what matters is trusting faithfulness expressing itself through love. 7. you were running the race well; who has stopped you from following the truth? [sup]8　[/sup]Whatever means of persuasion he used was not from the One who calls you. [sup]9　[/sup]"It takes only a little hametz to leaven the whole batch of dough." [sup]10　[/sup]I am confident that since you are united with the Lord, you will take no other view; and I am confident that the one who has been disturbing you, whoever he may be, will have to bear his punishment. 11. And as for me, brothers, if I am still preaching that circumcision is necessary, why am I still being persecuted? If that were the case, my preaching about the execution-stake would cause no offense whatever. [sup]12　[/sup]I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves! 13. for, brothers, you were called to be free. Only do not let that freedom become an excuse for allowing your old nature to have its way. Instead, serve one another in love. [sup]14　[/sup]For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: "Love your neighbor as yourself"; [sup]15　[/sup]but if you go on snapping at each other and tearing each other to pieces, watch out, or you will be destroyed by each other! 16. What I am saying is this: run your lives by the Spirit. Then you will not do what your old nature wants. [sup]17　[/sup]For the old nature wants what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit wants what is contrary to the old nature. These oppose each other, so that you find yourselves unable to carry out your good intentions. [sup]18　[/sup]But if you are led by the Spirit, then you are not in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism. 19 . And it is perfectly evident what the old nature does. It expresses itself in sexual immorality, impurity and indecency; [sup]20　[/sup]involvement with the occult and with drugs; in feuding, fighting, becoming jealous and getting angry; in selfish ambition, factionalism, intrigue [sup]21　[/sup]and envy; in drunkenness, orgies and things like these. I warn you now as I have warned you before: those who do such things will have no share in the Kingdom of God! 22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [sup]23　[/sup]humility, self control. Nothing in the Torah stands against such things. 24. Moreover, those who belong to the Messiah Yeshua have put their old nature to death on the stake, along with its passions and desires. [sup]25　[/sup]Since it is through the Spirit that we have Life, let it also be through the Spirit that we order our lives day by day. 26. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.



I really don't like the way most English Bibles uses the word "law" and "the law." The Torah means "instructions, or teachings" and not "the law." I know that originally the first five books of Moses was called "Torah". Years later, after the Prophets (Nevi'im) and Writings (K'tuvim) were added the Jews took the first letters of Torah, Nevi'im & K'tuvim, added vowels, and came up with Tanakh. The Jews call what we call the "Old Testament" the Tanakh. Later, as time went on, they started to call the Tanakh "the law." I am guessing the translators of our English Bible chose to use "law or the law" instead of Torah.
The name Tanakh is about as misleading as Old Testament. The apostles and Jesus called Genesis through Malachi "Scriptures." We know Genesis though Malachi is NOT the Old Testament, but that is what we call it.

This is about the same with "ten commandments." When God gave the Ten, He referred to it as "The Ten Words." (In the Greek, it is "decalogue." Deca means ten and logue means words, that is "decalogos.")

Dan, I know I'm not "proving" anything regarding your subject, but it fits in with the subject.

Hi charles , it was interesting , dan p

 

[Vengle53]

Since you quoted Gal 5 twice, I would like to quote Gal 5 (the whole) from the Complete Jewish Bible.





5

　[sup]1　[/sup]What the Messiah has freed us for is freedom! Therefore, stand firm, and don’t let yourselves be tied up again to a yoke of slavery. [sup]2　[/sup]Mark my words—I, Sha’ul, tell you that if you undergo b’rit-milah the Messiah will be of no advantage to you at all! [sup]3　[/sup]Again, I warn you: any man who undergoes b’rit-milah is obligated to observe the entire Torah! [sup]4　[/sup]You who are trying to be declared righteous by God through legalism have severed yourselves from the Messiah! You have fallen away from God’s grace! [sup]5　[/sup]For it is by the power of the Spirit, who works in us because we trust and are faithful, that we confidently expect our hope of attaining righteousness to be fulfilled. [sup]6　[/sup]When we are united with the Messiah Yeshua, neither being circumcised nor being uncircumcised matters; what matters is trusting faithfulness expressing itself through love. 7. you were running the race well; who has stopped you from following the truth? [sup]8　[/sup]Whatever means of persuasion he used was not from the One who calls you. [sup]9　[/sup]"It takes only a little hametz to leaven the whole batch of dough." [sup]10　[/sup]I am confident that since you are united with the Lord, you will take no other view; and I am confident that the one who has been disturbing you, whoever he may be, will have to bear his punishment. 11. And as for me, brothers, if I am still preaching that circumcision is necessary, why am I still being persecuted? If that were the case, my preaching about the execution-stake would cause no offense whatever. [sup]12　[/sup]I wish the people who are bothering you would go the whole way and castrate themselves! 13. for, brothers, you were called to be free. Only do not let that freedom become an excuse for allowing your old nature to have its way. Instead, serve one another in love. [sup]14　[/sup]For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: "Love your neighbor as yourself"; [sup]15　[/sup]but if you go on snapping at each other and tearing each other to pieces, watch out, or you will be destroyed by each other! 16. What I am saying is this: run your lives by the Spirit. Then you will not do what your old nature wants. [sup]17　[/sup]For the old nature wants what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit wants what is contrary to the old nature. These oppose each other, so that you find yourselves unable to carry out your good intentions. [sup]18　[/sup]But if you are led by the Spirit, then you are not in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism. 19 . And it is perfectly evident what the old nature does. It expresses itself in sexual immorality, impurity and indecency; [sup]20　[/sup]involvement with the occult and with drugs; in feuding, fighting, becoming jealous and getting angry; in selfish ambition, factionalism, intrigue [sup]21　[/sup]and envy; in drunkenness, orgies and things like these. I warn you now as I have warned you before: those who do such things will have no share in the Kingdom of God! 22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [sup]23　[/sup]humility, self control. Nothing in the Torah stands against such things. 24. Moreover, those who belong to the Messiah Yeshua have put their old nature to death on the stake, along with its passions and desires. [sup]25　[/sup]Since it is through the Spirit that we have Life, let it also be through the Spirit that we order our lives day by day. 26. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.



I really don't like the way most English Bibles uses the word "law" and "the law." The Torah means "instructions, or teachings" and not "the law." I know that originally the first five books of Moses was called "Torah". Years later, after the Prophets (Nevi'im) and Writings (K'tuvim) were added the Jews took the first letters of Torah, Nevi'im & K'tuvim, added vowels, and came up with Tanakh. The Jews call what we call the "Old Testament" the Tanakh. Later, as time went on, they started to call the Tanakh "the law." I am guessing the translators of our English Bible chose to use "law or the law" instead of Torah.
The name Tanakh is about as misleading as Old Testament. The apostles and Jesus called Genesis through Malachi "Scriptures." We know Genesis though Malachi is NOT the Old Testament, but that is what we call it.

This is about the same with "ten commandments." When God gave the Ten, He referred to it as "The Ten Words." (In the Greek, it is "decalogue." Deca means ten and logue means words, that is "decalogos.")

Dan, I know I'm not "proving" anything regarding your subject, but it fits in with the subject.

This was superimposing the lines over the top of one another and I could not read it. So I edited it.

I agree that the word "instruction" is fitting, for yet today its lessons remain in tact.

But there is also a correlation to God's having given them a perfect Law by which to govern themselves and man's numerous experiments with using similar external written Law to govern themselves as they seek to resolve their societies troubles and create peace and security themselves. God's demonstration on Israel has proven it cannot be done in that way.

Though Yah has allowed man to experiment with external written Law in many ways according to man's own wisdom, they have yet to have had any more success than did Israel.

It is a subtle inference of this whole demonstration that putting our strength and our hopes into any nations externally written codes is the same as building again that bondage. We are designed to live by the love of God regulating in our hearts and anything else is a temporary tool, a false hope.

 

[Duckybill]

Heb.8
[8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Also this, NOT ACCORDING TO THE LAW of Moses.

Jeremiah 31:32 (NKJV)
[sup]32 [/sup]NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

What were the "laws" that was put into their minds and why does Paul us the plural form; "laws" if he always spoke of ALL of God's laws as one?

That would be the moral commands of THE LAW, I.E. lying, stealing, committing adultery, honoring parents, coveting, murder, etc. Not THE WORKS of THE LAW.

Galatians 3:10 (NKJV)
[sup]10 [/sup]For as many as are of THE WORKS OF THE LAW are under the curse;

 

[veteran]

Most Gentile Christians don't have the Hebrew Bible version. Jews are going to realize the Old Covenant does not mean all the Books from Genesis through Malachi, what Gentiles call "The Old Testament."

The position dan p is coming from (which I recognize from his posting on other Forums), is that the only part of The Bible that applies to Gentile believers is Apostle Paul's writings.

In other words, scrap any and all writings in God's Word addressed to Israel, or anyone other than Gentiles who Paul spoke to. Sadly, they have that view also with the Four Gospel Books!

With what dan p is saying is that the Old Covenant means ALL the Books from Genesis through Malachi. He is teaching that ALL those Books are dead history with no more application among Christ's Church.

 

[dan p]

Most Gentile Christians don't have the Hebrew Bible version. Jews are going to realize the Old Covenant does not mean all the Books from Genesis through Malachi, what Gentiles call "The Old Testament."

The position dan p is coming from (which I recognize from his posting on other Forums), is that the only part of The Bible that applies to Gentile believers is Apostle Paul's writings.

In other words, scrap any and all writings in God's Word addressed to Israel, or anyone other than Gentiles who Paul spoke to. Sadly, they have that view also with the Four Gospel Books!

With what dan p is saying is that the Old Covenant means ALL the Books from Genesis through Malachi. He is teaching that ALL those Books are dead history with no more application among Christ's Church.

Hi to all and here is one that THINKS that he knows what I believe and welcome a questions on what I believe and what Pauline Dispensationalism REALLY is .

The Greek word OIKONMIA , Dispensation found in Eph 3:1 - 9 ,


OIKOS means House and NOMOS means Law , and OIKONOMIA means House Rules . Thanks Veteran , for bring it up so all will hear from me .and soon I will be posting what the House rules are the Paul espoused . dan p