When were the seals opened?

[David H.]

Sorry David, but the seals have not been opened yet. The rider on the white horse is the antichrist going out conquering and to conquer.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

We have not had a war that has taken the whole earth

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Not even WW 2 was fought on all continents. the 2 Americas and Antarctica did not have war on them.

We have not had global famine or global hyper inflation yet:

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Nor have we seen war and encompassing famine kill 1/4th of the population:

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Also since Pentecost, whenever a believer is martyred, they go straight o heaven and are like those who die fo natural causes. These are post rapture saints.

Sorry, but though we have seen all these phenomena happen on the earth in smaller measures, the seals are still future.

Lookup the black plague, and the great famine of 1315....

 

[CharismaticLady]

I See the rider on the white horse as Nicolaitanism which began in the apostolic church with those who claimed to be apostles but were not. This has continued and gotten worse through the ages. It is directly related to the Mystery of iniquity which was already at work in Paul's time but was restrained. I Have a post here on Nicolaitanism if you have not read it yet, do so.

What forum is your post on Nicolaitanism in so I can find it. I know about it as one of the Gnostic sub-categories.

Matthew 24 shows the seals in order. This is the first seal as also described in Revelation 5. And 2 Thessalonians 2.

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

It is the Antichrist, and the unveiling of him starts the Great Tribulation.

 

[Enoch111]

So,we have been under Gods wrath for that long? Just asking

As I already pointed out God's wrath begins under the 6th and 7th seals. But the Olivet Discourse confirms that the events of the first five seals would continue from the 1st century. You can check that out for yourself and match it up with world history and Church history.

 

[CharismaticLady]

As I already pointed out God's wrath begins under the 6th and 7th seals. But the Olivet Discourse confirms that the events of the first five seals would continue from the 1st century. You can check that out for yourself and match it up with world history and Church history.

Unless you are a preterist I can't see the first seal having been opened yet - but soon. It is the revealing of the Antichrist and the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

 

[David H.]

It is the Antichrist, and the unveiling of him starts the Great Tribulation.

That is how I see it and how Jesus clearly said the end would begin Matthew 24:15

Unless you are a preterist I can't see the first seal having been opened yet - but soon. It is the revealing of the Antichrist and the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

This is what the preterist sees rightly. I am a premillennialist and a futurist, but think that our brethren in the preterist camp have part of this right, and are worth listening to for this.

As I already pointed out God's wrath begins under the 6th and 7th seals. But the Olivet Discourse confirms that the events of the first five seals would continue from the 1st century. You can check that out for yourself and match it up with world history and Church history.

Out of curiousity, do you see a difference between the wrath of the lamb and the wrath of God? (Revelation 6:16, vs Revelation 11:18)

 

[David H.]

No matter who we think they are, we know this

1. they were redeemed by Christ
2. They were sitting in heaven, meaning they had been resurrected.

thus your theory falls, because there has been no resurrection yet, Paul proved this in Thessalonians,

who were the ones resurrected in Jerusalem at the time of Christ's death in Matthew 27:52-53?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

As I already pointed out God's wrath begins under the 6th and 7th seals. But the Olivet Discourse confirms that the events of the first five seals would continue from the 1st century. You can check that out for yourself and match it up with world history and Church history.

This makes no sense. Plus like I showed above. A resurrection had already taken place before the first seal was opened.

Alot of people think Gods full wrath is only the last two. I disagree with this. All the seals are Gods judgment on earth. If we look at the OT. We see God used man to judge Israel (assyria, Babylon, Media-persia etc etc) And that is what he is doing with the seals. He is starting unrest on earth. Taking peace from earth etc etc..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

who were the ones resurrected in Jerusalem at the time of Christ's death in Matthew 27:52-53?

It says their physical bodies were resurrected and they walked around. It does not say they were caught up to be with the Lord. and were given their resurrected bodies.

Most likely these people, like Lazarus, Died again.

 

[CharismaticLady]

who were the ones resurrected in Jerusalem at the time of Christ's death in Matthew 27:52-53?

They had to be from Abraham's Bosom, all the Old Testament saints. I believe they went to heaven with Jesus when He ascended.

 

[Enoch111]

Out of curiousity, do you see a difference between the wrath of the lamb and the wrath of God? (Revelation 6:16, vs Revelation 11:18)

They are identical.

 

[Enoch111]

Unless you are a preterist I can't see the first seal having been opened yet - but soon. It is the revealing of the Antichrist and the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

The first seal corresponds to false Christs, who began to appear very shortly after. Simeon bar Kochba appeared as a Messiah in the 2nd century. Many believe it applies to the Antichrist, but he is in the future.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The first seal corresponds to false Christs, who began to appear very shortly after. Simeon bar Kochba appeared as a Messiah in the 2nd century. Many believe it applies to the Antichrist, but he is in the future.

I believe Jesus was answering about the end of the age, and the Antichrist. John also talks of many antichrist, but also one specific.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Personally I think the coming of Christ happened when he was resurrected and appeared to everyone back in the day.

Probably not, based on this....

our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ Philippians 3:20

 

[dev553344]

Probably not, based on this....

our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ Philippians 3:20

I take that to mean the second coming of Christ which I do believe will happen soon enough in this world.

 

[David H.]

It says their physical bodies were resurrected and they walked around. It does not say they were caught up to be with the Lord. and were given their resurrected bodies.

Most likely these people, like Lazarus, Died again.

I Say these include the 24 elders, the heavenly Sanhedrin court. They likely ascended to heaven with Christ.

Scripture does not say what you said of them, that they died again, so you cannot prove this either. You are incapable of admitting you do not know.

 

[David H.]

They are identical.

I see the wrath of the lamb as being the judgment of the house of God (1 Peter 4:17) And the wrath of God as the judgment of the world.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I Say these include the 24 elders, the heavenly Sanhedrin court. They likely ascended to heaven with Christ.

Scripture does not say what you said of them, that they died again, so you cannot prove this either. You are incapable of admitting you do not know.

Scripture does not say what you claim either. Nor does it say they ascended to heaven with Christ.

Most people believe the 24 elders refer to the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles (Israel and the church)

But even this can not be proven.

We will now when we get to heaven though..

 

[CharismaticLady]

I Say these include the 24 elders, the heavenly Sanhedrin court. They likely ascended to heaven with Christ.

Scripture does not say what you said of them, that they died again, so you cannot prove this either. You are incapable of admitting you do not know.

Anybody know who the 24 elders might be, and if there are any other references scripturally?

 

[David H.]

Scripture does not say what you claim either. Nor does it say they ascended to heaven with Christ.

Most people believe the 24 elders refer to the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles (Israel and the church)

But even this can not be proven.

We will now when we get to heaven though.

I Agree with this, I do not know who the 24 elders are and scripture does not give these details. What it does say is that some were resurrected at the crucifixion and ascended to heaven when Christ did "presumably". All we know is they were saints. They were redeemed by the blood and are part of the firstfruits of the resurrection with Christ Jesus. I Suspect they make up the "Elders" of Revelation.

 

[David H.]

Anybody know who the 24 elders might be, and if there are any other references scripturally?

The 24 Elders: Who They Are How They Got To Heaven – Escape All These Things (Luke 21:36)