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Featured When, where, or how was free will taken away?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by atpollard, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    I keep trying to answer, but you keep refusing to listen.

    From this point forward, I will focus on nothing but THIS conversation between us and will permit no bunny trails. You may disagree with my answer, but you WILL stop asking what it is because you will know.

    Q. When, where, or how was free will taken away?

    Free Will is about ABLE TO and WANT TO. Let me start by asking questions to set some groundwork for our discussion.

    1. Do YOU have the free will to immolate yourself (to pour gasoline all over your body and set yourself on fire)?

    2. Do YOU want to set yourself on fire?

    (Question 1 is about "Able to" and Question 2 is about "Want to".)
     
  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Free will was never taken away from mankind. That is a false teaching foisted on Christians. Even Augustine never taught that free will was absent after the Fall.

    "But since there are some persons who so defend God's grace as to deny man's free will, or who suppose that free will is denied when grace is defended, I have determined to write somewhat on this point...

    Now He [God] has revealed to us, through His Holy Scriptures, that there is in a man a free choice of will. But how He has revealed this I do not recount in human language, but in divine. There is, to begin with, the fact that God's precepts themselves would be of no use to a man unless he had free choice of will, so that by performing them he might obtain the promised rewards...

    What is the import of the fact that in so many passages God requires all His commandments to be kept and fulfilled? How does He make this requisition, if there is no free will? ...

    But even the ignorance, which is not theirs who refuse to know, but theirs who are, as it were, simply ignorant, does not so far excuse any one as to exempt him from the punishment of eternal fire, though his failure to believe has been the result of his not having at all heard what he should believe...

    It is, however, to be feared lest all these and similar testimonies of Holy Scripture (and undoubtedly there are a great many of them), in the maintenance of free will, be understood in such a way as to leave no room for God's assistance and grace in leading a godly life and a good conversation, to which the eternal reward is due..."


    CHURCH FATHERS: On Grace and Free Will (St. Augustine)
     
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  3. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Nothing personal, but I am just focusing on one conversation with GodsGrace here.
    So feel free to comment and chat with anyone else, but I will not be "defending a position agaist all challenges" on this topic.
     
  4. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8:20
    [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
     
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  5. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I DID answer you.
    You apparently do not like my answers.

    I said that some DO set themselves on fire because they WANT to.

    upload_2019-9-9_21-0-17.jpeg


    If you want me to answer personally:

    1. Yes, I'm free to immolate myself.

    2. No, I do not want to.


    I hope to find out what this means since MOST persons do not want to die burned....

    Your explanation will be interesting since calvinism teaches that God does all the deciding for us.

    According to calvinism, the man in the image above (a tibetan monk) set himself on fire because this is what God had determined for him.

    Compatibilist free will:

    Here is an incompatibilist argument that codifies the considerations set out above:



    Libertarian free will:

    1. Any agent, x, performs an act a of x's own free will iff x has control over a.
    2. x has control over a only if x has the ability to select among alternative courses of action to act a.
    3. If x has the ability to select among alternative courses of action to act a, then there are alternative courses of action to act a open to x (i.e., x could have done otherwise than a).


    Compatiblist Free Will:

    1. If determinism is true, then only one future is possible given the actual past, and holding fixed the laws of nature.
    2. If only one future is possible holding fixed the actual past and the laws of nature, then there are no alternative courses of action to any act open to any agent (i.e., no agent could have done otherwise than she actually does).
    3. Therefore, if determinism is true, it is not the case that any agent, x, performs any act, a, of her own free will.[10]
    source: Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

    vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
    Compatibilism does not maintain that humans are free. Compatabilism does not hold that humans have free will.

    Compatibilism holds that:

    1) the thesis of determinism is true, and that accordingly all human behavior, voluntary or involuntary, like the behavior of all other things, arises from antecedent conditions, given which no other behavior is possible: all human behavior is caused and determined

    2)voluntary behavior is nonetheless free to the extent that it is not externally constrained or impeded

    3) the causes of voluntary behavior are certain states, events, or conditions within the agent: acts of will or volitions, choices, decisions, desires etc...

    Compatibilism is NOT a position that combines the libertarian and determinist positions.

    Compatibilismis NOT a compromise of the two other positions.

    Compatibilism is NOT a position that holds that humans are "a little bit" free.

    Compatibilism is NOT a position that holds that humans have "limited free will".

    Compatibilism is NOT a position that holds that humans have some free will.

    Compatibilism is determinism with a slight modification for the sake of appearances and for our language use. It is a position taken because of the perceived need to have some idea of accountability or responsibility for human behavior.

    source: Compatibilism


    vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

    If YOU have a different explanation for compatibilism, perhaps you can explain YOUR understanding of it.
     
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  6. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Gee. Thanks for the explanation of questions 1 and 2 in the parenthesis at the end.
    I NEVER would have known.

    Thank God Jesus taught us to be humble....
     
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  7. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying God has subjected the earth to the fall willingly?

    If so,
    Could you please exegete Romans 8:20?

    Thanks.
     
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Q. When, where, or how was free will taken away?

    3. Would it change your mind if I personally assured you that dying by fire would purify you and you would go to heaven?
    4. If I set up a booth at the Mall with a video of testimonials of people who claimed to have set themselves on fire and been reincarneted into a happy life, would that change your mind?
    5. Would a free book explaining the mystery and power of purification by fire change your mind?
    6. Why don't you want to die by fire? (this one is important)
     
  9. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Sorry A,
    I wouldn't be personally assured by YOU!

    This is becoming rather silly.
    Let's stick to scripture.

    I believe in God.
    I wouldn't listen to anyone in a booth in a mall.
    I don't believe in reincarnation.

    I don't like talking about hypotheticals...it's a waste of time.

    If you're trying to say I'm afraid of fire and hell,,,
    You're wrong.

    Let's get on with a real conversation please.

    Show me WHERE, WHEN OR HOW free will was removed from my attributes, that were given to me from God

    Since He made us in HIS IMAGE,
    and HE has free will.
     
  10. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Sorry, I can't.
    You are just waiting to for a chance to argue and have no patience to listen and communicate. You ask me "When, where, or how was free will taken away?" but you really don't want my answer, you want to tell me that my answer is wrong.

    The best that I can offer someone that doesn't want to talk is: "You are asking the wrong question."
    Good luck finding your answers.

    Bye.
     
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  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    This verse has been taken out of context. It has nothing to do with man's free will but with the curse which came upon creation ("the creature") after Adam sinned.

    ROMANS 8
    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature [THE CREATION] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    20 For the creature [THE CREATION] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creature [THE CREATION] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22 For we know that the whole creation [THE CREATION] groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption,to wit, the redemption of our body.

    1. Verse 22 makes it perfectly clear that Paul has been speaking all along about God's creation. And God's creation has been personified in this passage, with creation "groaning" and "travailing" like a human being. "Not willingly" simply means that had God's creation had a choice, it would not have desired to be corrupted.

    2. "Subject to vanity" means "the bondage of corruption". And exactly what does that mean? Originally God's creation was not subject to disease, death, decay, corruption, infestation with parasites, thorns, thistles, dangerous creatures, predators, etc. because ALL CREATURES WERE CREATED AS HERBIVORES and meant to live in harmony with each other, and free from any nasty thing. Neither were natural disasters a part of this creation. But when God cursed Adam, He also put a curse on creation. Earthquakes, tsunamis, tropical storms, hurricanes, cyclones, etc. are all a result of the curse on creation.

    3. This curse will be removed at "the redemption of the body", meaning the Resurrection/Rapture. But it will not be immediate, but only after the New Heavens and the New Earth are established. Since the New Earth will be established in righteousness and peace, the lion and the lamb will live together in perfect harmony.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  12. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you are asking: “For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope” ...having His reason for doing so, God subjected the creation to vanity but also subjected the same in Hope. It says the creation was unwillingly subjected...and that God has His reason. Not that someone made God do it...it says He who subjected it to vanity is the same who subjected it to Hope.
     
  13. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Agree vanity means bondage of corruption. death. Not willingly the creation was made subject to vanity and the bondage of death...man is God’s creation and unless I’m mistaken ...all of creation was cursed and in the bondage of death because of sin. That verse (imo) shows when “free will” was lost. In “unwillingly” ...it all went into the bondage of death and stand there. We love to speak of free will but there is no free will under the umbrella of death. Move here, or move there, do this or that, choose this or that...every outcome is still Death. There is a whole book devoted to the bondage of vanity. Evidence is seen all around you. There is no free will but only slavery to corruption and death and sin. From when the creation was subjected to vanity and the bondage of corruption and death ...There was no freedom. So I don’t know what you are talking about. The word speaks of vanity and emptiness and the slavery to the bondage...but the creation was also subjected to hope.

    NOT WILLINGLY: Ecclesiastes 3:10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

    Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


    WILLINGLY: John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. [18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    by God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh...unlike when the creation was, not of its own will, subjected to vanity and the bondage of corruption...man can by the power given of God, willingly, turn from vanity and the bondage of corruption and lay down his life, and serve The living God. If any could or would do it of his own will before Christ...then why did He(God)need to lower himself ...to do what only He could do?
     
  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Sure there is. That is why the Gospel must be preached to every creature. Why do you think Christ died and rose again?
     
  15. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    o_O...I meant from the time the creation was subjected to vanity and the bondage of corruption and death ...UNTIL subjected to Hope in Son of God, Jesus Christ. Hope of Life. There was no freedom from death until the resurrection Life of the Son. How is free will or what purpose does it serve when all of creation, not of its own will, became a servant of death? Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    “The glorious liberty of the children of God” ...the word calls that Liberty “glorious”.

    Liberty: “The opposite of servitude or bondage, hence, applicable to captives or slaves set free from oppression. liberty consists, not simply in external freedom, or in possession of the formal power of choice, but in deliverance from the darkening of the mind, the tyranny of sinful lusts and the enthrallment of the will, induced by a morally corrupt state.”

    John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. [18] No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. < “pick up your cross and follow Me.”

    Power of choice. “Liberty”. Power given of God to become the Sons of God.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  16. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    You can't.
    Of course.
    Not easy to debate with the truth, is it?

    Interesting that YOU started this thread,
    and YOU have no answer for it.

    Normal, as with all calvinists.
    This is because your theology MAKES NO SENSE.
     
  17. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    You quoted Romans 8:20 with no explanation.
    Some persons do this...I guess some here could read minds, but I cannot.

    I wanted to know if you were saying that GOD SUBJECTED NATURE to the sin nature.

    So I guess I have to assume that this is what you're saying..
    IF IT IS...
    then you have misunderstood this verse.

    The fall of Adam subjected the following to the EFFECTS of the fall:

    Man's relationship with God
    Man's relationship with other men
    Man's relationship with himself
    Man's relationship with nature

    Nature also suffers from the EFFECTS of the fall.
    THIS IS NOT WHAT GOD WANTED....but what came about because Adam had FREE WILL, just as we still have free will today since it was not taken away from our attributes.

    See Genesis 3:17

    The ground has been cursed BECAUSE OF YOU...because of Adam...
    thorns and thistles it will grow.

    Just as in any covenant, there were curses and blessings depending on HOW man obeyed the covenant....Here we see the curses being declared by God.

    So nature did not WANT to be cursed,,,but alas, due to Adam's sin it did become cursed...as were A and E, and their relationship with each other, and their relationship with God.
     
  18. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Very good. You're sane.

    I think God wishes for us to choose correctly so we can live. The instinct for survival may be a good thing.

    Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    To say we have no real choice is to make a mockery of that passage and others. We will be held accountable for our decisions. To say otherwise is to blame God for our mistakes.
     
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  19. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    This has NOTHING to do with Calvinism. The explanation works with Wesleyean Arminianism as well.
    The issue is that I cannot explain to somene that refuses to have a conversation.

    You want a one sentence answer, then claim you do not understand the one sentence answer.
    So I give an in depth exegetical answer that you ignore and simply repeat the question.

    Then I attempt to guide you step by step to the answer, but you just want to argue about Calvinism (which has nothing to do with the question or answer) and refuse to continue even as far as step 2 (Why people do not want to die).

    Do not lay this failure at my feet. I only came back to this site because you asked where I was and wanted to talk. I have tried to talk, but you are the one that has no real interest in listening to anything. When I ask you a question, I listen for your answer and build on it. I have not told you "THIS is what you believe and your belief is wrong."

    You need to get over your irrational hatred of Calvinism. Everything is not about Calvinism. Calvinism just means "God chooses people BEFORE people accept God" and Arminianism just means "people choose God BEFORE God accepts people". Everything is not about that distinction.
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Thank you, somebody got the point of those first two questions ... "People want to LIVE and do not want to DIE."

    Every "sane" person would agree.

    I have no intention of blaming God for any mistakes.
    However, do you mind if I ask YOU the second part of the discission that "GodsGrace" had no patience for:

    Why do you want to live and not die?
    (Is there any way that someone could convince you to die?)
     
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