When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

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David in NJ

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Exactly! This is what I have been hoping to hear you say. Having agreed the saints in heaven are living spiritual souls, can you elaborate on how they are spirits alive in heaven after they have physically died? Are you reluctant to say they are spirits alive in heaven after they have physically died because in life they were born again of the Spirit? IOW do you accept the first resurrection we must have part in to overcome the second death, thereby live forever is by grace through faith in Christ when we are born again of His Spirit?
God has not given to us to know how He made us nor how He is Eternal and how He made spiritual beings such as angels and our own spirits/souls.

Neither do i need to know these things to Believe on Him who Rose from the Dead and Lives Forevermore.

Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.
And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
 

rwb

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YES - These are ONLY Born-Again saints = John 1:9-13 , John 3:1-8 , 1 Peter chapter 1

YES - All who are part of the First Resurrection overcome the Second Death - Revelation 2:11 and 20:6

YES - By His Grace we receive His Mercy, Born-Again, Holy Spirit and Eternal Life = John 11:1-27 and John chapter 17

The doctrine you espouse here aligns with Amillennialism! Do you agree?
 

David in NJ

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The doctrine you espouse here aligns with Amillennialism! Do you agree?
i do not follow doctrines of men, especially 'isms'

Here is what we are commanded by our Heavenly FATHER:
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Here is what we are commanded by the LORD Jesus Christ:
But Jesus answered, “It is written:
‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’

Here is what we are commanded by the Holy Spirit:
But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
 
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Keraz

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Yes, these are the spirits and souls of the living Saints who had died and their physical/flesh body was buried/sleeps in the earth.

These are the Saints who Return with Christ for the Resurrection of their dead bodies that will be instantly be changed and transformed into His Glorious Likeness = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15 and 1 John 3:1-3
Confusion and error!
Only the souls of the martyrs are kept under the Altar in heaven. They are not living and it is merely a homily where it is said they call out to God for justice. They await the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium for their raising up into immortality.
Only those martyrs who will be killed during the 42 month period of world satanic control, will be raised - then: just back to mortal life.

People seem unable to comprehend that Paul's Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is NOT about the Return or the Millennium, but what will happen at the GWT Judgment, when the Book of Life is opened.
Thinking that immortality can come to anyone before then, is wrong and contradicts Revelation 21:4, where only in the New heaven and new Earth, is there death no more.
 

Truth7t7

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Not at all deceived.
Rapture APPLIES expressly TO:
* The Works of the Lord, Claiming His Church.
* The Church is expressly, THE CONVERTED “IN” Christ.
* The CONVERTED, are expressly, those Crucified with Jesus (Bodily dead)
Soul Saved
Spirit Quickened BEFORE the Tribulation Begins.
THEY ARE ALREADY, body, soul, spirit…
MADE WHOLE, and THUS EXCEPTED (Scripture calls it ESCAPED) FROM the Tribulations SENT down from Heaven.

The Tribulations sent down from Heaven ARE SENT DOWN “upon” the “unrighteous”.
The “unConverted” Righteous UPON the EARTH, must FIRST bodily DIE, THEN they become MADE WHOLE, (dead body, saved soul, quickened spirit).
Those ALREADY bodily DEAD, Crucified with Jesus, HAVE Already fulfilled Scripture to DIE ONCE.
The “unConverted” Non-Believing, NON-RIGHTEOUS…SUFFER through the whole of the Tribulations….and those Unrighteous which are NOT bodily killed from the Tribulations…. SHALL SUFFER the Effects of the LAST portion of the Tribulation……the pouring out of the VIALS, mixed with Gods Vengeance, “FOR” their part in “persecuting” BELIEVERS.

You mix together…
ALL people.
The Rapture of the Lord claiming His Church.
The Saving of souls during the Trib of Gods People Israel, their bodily death, and God Raising them up during the First Resurrection.

God SAVES whom He Wills, and WHEN and How He Wills.

The Lord SAVES whom He Wills, and WHEN and How He Wills.


Presently….the MAJORITY of People becoming crucified with Jesus, soul saved, spirit quickened………ARE GENTILES.
The MAJORITY of People that SHALL BE RAPTURED (Converted IN Christ)…ARE GENTILES….(and a minority of ISRAEL who Converted WHILE the Apostles were STILL ALIVE preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and they Accepting that Truth, and Became Converted. There is also a minority TODAY of Israel Converting IN Christ, who also will be RAPTURED….CLAIMED BY the Lord…Risen up to the CLOUDS above the FACE of the Earth, WHILE the Tribulations from Heaven come down to the Face of the Earth, upon ALL Unrighteousness.

Gods PEOPLE ARE ISRAEL.
Presently….the MAJORITY of ISRAEL, believe IN God, but REJECT Jesus is the Christ Messiah. They SUFFER the Wrath of the Lamb….(your know, the ONE they reject).
They first HEAR
* The the Preaching of the 144,000…their OWN PEOPLE “ISRAEL”….they begin Believing…are bodily killed…and SAVED.
* They Hear the Preaching of the Two Witnesses AND observe THEIR POWER given them….their OWN PEOPLE “ISRAEL”….they begin Believing….and the MAJORITY bodily killed….and SAVED, having BELIEVED “AND” REJECTED the mark of the Beast.
* ALL other People, still living ON Earth…
Hear A SINGLE HOLY ANGEL, preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ….THEN SHALL BE FULFILLED, the WHOLE WORLD WILL HEAR the Gospel of Jesus Christ….
* AND ??
* Some will remain mortally ALIVE, BELIEVING.
* ALL others who reject BELIEF, will be KILLED, By, Through, Of Gods Wrath, VIA the pouring out of the VIALS.

THEN SEPARATION OCCURS…
All Unbelievers, Bodily KILLED…souls sent to hell.
Satan and fallen angels sent to hell.

* THEN Does Jesus Return TO EARTH, WITH POWER (who IS Christ), WITH His Saints…
Holy Angels AND His Church…..and CLAIMS “His INHERITANCE”…His KINGDOM…(Abrahams’ Promised Land)
and His THRONE…
(King David’s everlasting Throne in Jerusalem).
* The Believing Surviving Mortals, begin establishing groups, clans, cities, nations, appointing kings to rule their nations.
* They live in harmony between their Nations.
* They have ZERO influence of Satan and fallen angels.
* They the MORTALS (particularly) the Kings (governing heads) and lord (high governing ranking officials)….ARE TAUGHT Christ the Lords WAY of Governing….and DO SO GOVERN their Nations … According to Christ Jesus , whose POSITION OF AUTHORITY IS: the KING of kings, and LORD of lords OVER every Nation on Earth.
* ALL Nations and Peoples work in Harmony……for 1,000 years….UNTIL…Satan is loosed and ALLOWED to once Again CORRUPT THE Nations, CORRUPT THE People, by, through, of his cunning mastery of trickery……..
* AND ?
After 1,000 years of Mortal men being TAUGHT Gods word and Gods way… IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME…the MORTAL men of the Nations World….are CONVINCED BY Satan, to COME AGAINST Christ’s Kingdom to Battle.
* AND?
OOPS, they are all killed.
* HOW?
The Power of that TWO EDGED SWORD…ie the WORD of God coming forth out of Christ Jesus Mouth…and Fire Gods Sends down from Heaven…AGAINST the remaining mortals that which betray the Lord…..and Angelic Holy Angels with the Power of God, DEFEAT the Falling Angels, who are thereafter SENT to the Lake of Fire in Hell forever.

WHAT does ANY of these NEGATIVE EVENTS and WRATH of the Lamb, of the Devil, of God upon the unrighteous and suffering during the Tribulation HAVE to do WITH A man (bodily crucified with Jesus, received his saved soul, received his quickened spirit,) and IS ABOVE the Face of the Earth, DURING the tribulations sent down from Heaven.

You have YET to reveal….
One Scripture of a man MADE “WHOLE”…(ie Converted IN Christ).
Being ON EARTH during the Tribulations sent down from Heaven.

You have YET to reveal….
One Scripture of a man MADE “WHOLE”…
(Ie. Converted IN Christ)
DOING ANYTHING On EARTH during the Tribulations sent down from Heaven.




You are CHANGING…. A TRUMP summoning UP those IN Christ….into the LAST TRUMP, when it is not the last trump.

Trumps have been sounded all throughout Scripture. They Are Warnings (as are SIGNS) of what was foretold shall SOON be manifested and come to pass.

During the tribulations sent down from Heaven….There are SEVEN specific TRUMPS sounded….
The Lord calling UP TO THE CLOUDS HIS CHURCH….is NOT ONE OF THOSE “specific SEVEN TRUMPS”.

The Lord CLAIMS those body’s, souls, spirits, that BELONG TO CHRIST, by, through, of HIS POWER to Divide and Separate.

God CLAIMS those body’s, souls, spirit, that ARE His PEOPLE ISRAEL, by, through, of HIS POWER to Divide and Separate.

If you notice….the First People at large, were Gods People ISRAEL and the Last SHALL also be Gods People ISRAEL.

The last shall be first and the first shall be last.

It is DURING the Last days Tribulations, God is fulfilling His Promise to ISRAEL, His People.

The Last days IS NOT ABOUT Converted GENTILES, IS NOT ABOUT those IN Christ being appointed to WRATH and SUFFERING, (as it DOES APPLY to those WHO REJECTED God and REJECTED JESUS IS THE CHRIST.)
"Yes" The Church Will Be Present on Earth, There Won't Be A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Don't Be Deceived

"The Church" seen in Luke 21 below, those who are persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ, they will be eyewitnesses of the future great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens, your claim of a pre-tribulation rapture would be false

The Tribulation verses 25-26 below, the Second Coming verses 27-28 below

"Yes" The Church On Earth, Hated By The World For The Name Of Jesus (Verse 17)

Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

Truth7t7

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Zechariah chapter 14 is Truth.

Demanding that Zechariah ch14 conforms to your belief system is religious rebellion.

Conforming to Christ is when we prostrate ourselves and cast our crowns before Him = never imposing our view in His Presence/Word.

Zechariah 14 Is The Eternal Kingdom​


Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which
is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee
to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and
from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And
men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
 

rwb

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i do not follow doctrines of men, especially 'isms'

Here is what we are commanded by our Heavenly FATHER:
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Here is what we are commanded by the LORD Jesus Christ:
But Jesus answered, “It is written:
‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’

Here is what we are commanded by the Holy Spirit:
But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

I understand what you mean, I don't follow doctrines of men, especially 'isms' either. Funny thing is, I've discovered that when I began to share what I have learned through my study of Scripture of many years, others began to label me things like Calvinist, and Amillennialistic. The only reason I now know what both Calvinist and Amils believe is because I searched from those using these titles to learn what they believed. Low and behold I discovered that my study of the Scriptures proved to be more in agreement with these then with other doctrinal persuasions having a variety of manmade titles assigned to them. So, I've come to conclude that since both the teaching from Calvinism and Amillennialism have proven to be biblically sound, I don't have a problem wearing, especially the Amil title because then people aren't left to guess about my beliefs and discussions prove to be more productive.

In all truth it has taken some time for me to finally conclude that you basically hold to the same beliefs that I have come to believe are faithful to the Word of God. Since you prefer not to wear a title, and I really do understand that, but it leaves me wondering your views on other things like "a thousand years". But hey, that's fine, perhaps in another thread we can go through the same type of drawn out replies to discover your views on that. I am happy to end this discussion knowing that our biblical view comes from the same Word of God, and happily we are closer to achieving the goal of having doctrinal unity. Thank you for the discussion, though slow, fruitful.
 

David in NJ

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Zechariah 14 Is The Eternal Kingdom​


Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which
is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee
to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day,
that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass,
that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and
from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And
men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Nobody is disputing that the LORD is Coming with Fire = 2 Thessalonians
 

David in NJ

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I understand what you mean, I don't follow doctrines of men, especially 'isms' either. Funny thing is, I've discovered that when I began to share what I have learned through my study of Scripture of many years, others began to label me things like Calvinist, and Amillennialistic. The only reason I now know what both Calvinist and Amils believe is because I searched from those using these titles to learn what they believed. Low and behold I discovered that my study of the Scriptures proved to be more in agreement with these then with other doctrinal persuasions having a variety of manmade titles assigned to them. So, I've come to conclude that since both the teaching from Calvinism and Amillennialism have proven to be biblically sound, I don't have a problem wearing, especially the Amil title because then people aren't left to guess about my beliefs and discussions prove to be more productive.

In all truth it has taken some time for me to finally conclude that you basically hold to the same beliefs that I have come to believe are faithful to the Word of God. Since you prefer not to wear a title, and I really do understand that, but it leaves me wondering your views on other things like "a thousand years". But hey, that's fine, perhaps in another thread we can go through the same type of drawn out replies to discover your views on that. I am happy to end this discussion knowing that our biblical view comes from the same Word of God, and happily we are closer to achieving the goal of having doctrinal unity. Thank you for the discussion, though slow, fruitful.
Amen
 
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Truth7t7

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Nobody is disputing that the LORD is Coming with Fire = 2 Thessalonians
Yes the very same fire is seen in Zechariah 14:12 below (The Day Of The Lord)

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Luke 17:29-30KJV29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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i do not follow doctrines of men, especially 'isms'
I understand the reluctance to be labeled. I'm not a huge fan of labels. However, they do help identify what people believe without us having to explain what we believe every time we tell someone what we believe. Know what I mean? So, I have no problem in saying that I'm an Amillennialist. It doesn't mean I have decided to join a cult or something just because I have that label. It just makes it way easier to tell someone what I believe regarding eschatology than having to spell it all out every time. I know rwb already pretty much covered this in a similar way, but I just wanted to add my two cents.

You probably have no problem being called a Christian, right? That's another label. Labels can be restrictive sometimes and misleading at times, but sometimes they are helpful to give people at least a general idea of what you believe.
 
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Truth7t7

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I understand the reluctance to be labeled. I'm not a huge fan of labels. However, they do help identify what people believe without us having to explain what we believe every time we tell someone what we believe. Know what I mean? So, I have no problem in saying that I'm an Amillennialist. It doesn't mean I have decided to join a cult or something just because I have that label. It just makes it way easier to tell someone what I believe regarding eschatology than having to spell it all out every time. I know rwb already pretty much covered this in a similar way, but I just wanted to add my two cents.

You probably have no problem being called a Christian, right? That's another label. Labels can be restrictive sometimes and misleading at times, but sometimes they are helpful to give people at least a general idea of what you believe.
Well said I agree

Amill = No Millennium

I don't believe in a future millennium on this earth, as you, rwb, covenantee, WPM, also believe

Yes we all have differences in surrounding points in eschatology, but we all deny a literal Millennium on this earth (Amill)
 

Taken

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"Yes" The Church Will Be Present on Earth, There Won't Be A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Don't Be Deceived
The Church “IS” people “MADE WHOLE”(body, soul, spirit) called Converted “IN” Christ.

Jesus’ MADE an OFFERING 2,000+ years ago, of a specific ORDER and WAY, For any Free willing man to ACCEPT His Offering to become “MADE Converted”, BEFORE a mans bodily PHYSICAL death.

Gods ORDER and WAY, is specific (the terms if you will), accompanied with gifts, blessings, (positive consequences), and with corrections, punishments, (negative consequences) AND an expiration date (if you will).

Consider the TWO RACES…
ISRAEL (called Hebrews, 12 Tribes, Jews)
GENTILES (all who are not ISRAEL)

ISRAEL was FIRST to receive the OFFERING.
GENTILES were LAST to receive the OFFERING.

ISRAEL began accepting the OFFERING…
THEN Majority wise…STOPPED.
“SOME” GENTILES began accepting the OFFERING…
To this day 2,000+ years later, the Division continues….FEW of ISRAEL accept the Offering, (called Messianic Jews). FEW of GENTILES accept the Offering, (broadly called Christians, specifically called CONVERTED IN Christ or BORN AGAIN Christian).
^ That is called a DIVISION between ISRAEL and ISRAEL … AND a DIVISION between GENTILES and GENTILES.
(Which BTW the Division between ISRAEL and GENTILES was Gods Express INTENT.
Which BTW the Division between ISRAEL and ISRAEL … AND GENTILE and GENTILES was Expressly ONE specific reason Jesus was SENT to Earth to Accomplish, and Did so Accomplish.)


THOSE FEW, WHO, expressly, give their ONE precious thing that is THEIRS to give, and do so give it unto the Lord God….THEY become, BY, THROUGH, OF….the POWER of God (who IS Christ)….”MADE WHOLE”…(body, soul, spirit).

THAT ONE THING that IS a mans, that a man CAN GIVE unto the Lord God?
His BODILY LIFE.
(That is expressly called A LIVING SACRIFICE)
It is accomplished by a man, WHEN a man Agrees to BE Bodily Crucified WITH Jesus.
* Thereafter, The POWER of God, Forgives that man for having NOT believed, Sanctifies (sets him aside WITH the Lord God), Covers that mans sin IN his body (with Gods INDWELLING light), Justifies that man TO ESCAPE THE END of Days (as we know them), that shall be sent down from Heaven upon the whole of the earth and it’s inhabitants.
HOW such a man SHALL ESCAPE the end of days TRIBULATIONS sent down from Heaven?
Scripture notifies us. Nothing new under the sun. In the SAME similitude THAT GOD SAVED NOAH FROM the FIRST great Tribulations sent down from Heaven, SO ALSO, shall the CONVERTED “IN” Christ be SAVED FROM the LAST great Tribulations sent down from Heaven.

SO HOW WAS NOAH SAVED?
His WHOLE FAITHFUL, body, soul, spirit, was RAISED UP ABOVE the FACE OF THE EARTH to the CLOUDS.


The DIFFERENCE and SIMILITUDE… IS ALSO:
None outside of Noah’s ARK, (upon the face of the earth survived.)

DIFFERENCE and WHY.
* The Waters rising, gave men on Earth a small opportunity to go to higher ground. They had a short window of opportunity TO Confess Belief and BECOME SAVED AFTER their BODILY DEATH.
* During the Last Tribulations PORTIONS of the EARTH will experience Massive Earthquakes and Massive Fires, leaving MANY Bodily DEAD, (in Disbelief and NOT SAVED)…and leaving MANY “NON-Converted BELIEVERS” to willingly to give their bodily LIFE unto the Lord God.
MANY “NON-BELIEVERS” will have opportunity TO BELIEVE, TO Know their bodily death is eminent AND GIVE their bodily LIFE unto the Lord God…..and thus BECOME SAVED “after” their BODY Physically DIES.
WHY?
For God to FULFILL His Covenant Promise TO SAVE all of His PEOPLE; Faithful ISRAEL.

WHY?
IS the CHURCH Risen UP ABOVE the Face of the EARTH….BEFORE the last days tribulations Sent down from Heaven?
ONE REASON…
The Lord God IS PLEASED with THEM.


The Lord God IS NOT Angry, Disappointed, Need to Correct, Need to Punish, Need to wield His wrath upon Them.

IF you ARE NOT ISRAEL, or a GENTILE having REJECTED Christ Jesus’ OFFERING to BE MADE WHOLE, (body, soul, spirit)….
WHAT EXACTLY do you believe IS YOUR PURPOSE to BE ON the FACE of THE EARTH
DURING the Days GOD sends down Tribulations UPON the face of the Earth and It’s inhabitants?

AND What SCRIPTURES TEACH you, THE PURPOSE and WHAT a CONVERTED man shall be DOING upon the FACE of the EARTH….DURING the Last Days Tribulations Sent down From Heaven?


Surely IF you ARE CONVERTED, and you believe you shall BE ON the face of the Earth During the Tribulation days… YOU know your purpose…? What is it according to Scripture?
 

Truth7t7

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The Church “IS” people “MADE WHOLE”(body, soul, spirit) called Converted “IN” Christ.

Jesus’ MADE an OFFERING 2,000+ years ago, of a specific ORDER and WAY, For any Free willing man to ACCEPT His Offering to become “MADE Converted”, BEFORE a mans bodily PHYSICAL death.

Gods ORDER and WAY, is specific (the terms if you will), accompanied with gifts, blessings, (positive consequences), and with corrections, punishments, (negative consequences) AND an expiration date (if you will).

Consider the TWO RACES…
ISRAEL (called Hebrews, 12 Tribes, Jews)
GENTILES (all who are not ISRAEL)

ISRAEL was FIRST to receive the OFFERING.
GENTILES were LAST to receive the OFFERING.

ISRAEL began accepting the OFFERING…
THEN Majority wise…STOPPED.
“SOME” GENTILES began accepting the OFFERING…
To this day 2,000+ years later, the Division continues….FEW of ISRAEL accept the Offering, (called Messianic Jews). FEW of GENTILES accept the Offering, (broadly called Christians, specifically called CONVERTED IN Christ or BORN AGAIN Christian).
^ That is called a DIVISION between ISRAEL and ISRAEL … AND a DIVISION between GENTILES and GENTILES.
(Which BTW the Division between ISRAEL and GENTILES was Gods Express INTENT.
Which BTW the Division between ISRAEL and ISRAEL … AND GENTILE and GENTILES was Expressly ONE specific reason Jesus was SENT to Earth to Accomplish, and Did so Accomplish.)


THOSE FEW, WHO, expressly, give their ONE precious thing that is THEIRS to give, and do so give it unto the Lord God….THEY become, BY, THROUGH, OF….the POWER of God (who IS Christ)….”MADE WHOLE”…(body, soul, spirit).

THAT ONE THING that IS a mans, that a man CAN GIVE unto the Lord God?
His BODILY LIFE.
(That is expressly called A LIVING SACRIFICE)
It is accomplished by a man, WHEN a man Agrees to BE Bodily Crucified WITH Jesus.
* Thereafter, The POWER of God, Forgives that man for having NOT believed, Sanctifies (sets him aside WITH the Lord God), Covers that mans sin IN his body (with Gods INDWELLING light), Justifies that man TO ESCAPE THE END of Days (as we know them), that shall be sent down from Heaven upon the whole of the earth and it’s inhabitants.
HOW such a man SHALL ESCAPE the end of days TRIBULATIONS sent down from Heaven?
Scripture notifies us. Nothing new under the sun. In the SAME similitude THAT GOD SAVED NOAH FROM the FIRST great Tribulations sent down from Heaven, SO ALSO, shall the CONVERTED “IN” Christ be SAVED FROM the LAST great Tribulations sent down from Heaven.

SO HOW WAS NOAH SAVED?
His WHOLE FAITHFUL, body, soul, spirit, was RAISED UP ABOVE the FACE OF THE EARTH to the CLOUDS.


The DIFFERENCE and SIMILITUDE… IS ALSO:
None outside of Noah’s ARK, (upon the face of the earth survived.)

DIFFERENCE and WHY.
* The Waters rising, gave men on Earth a small opportunity to go to higher ground. They had a short window of opportunity TO Confess Belief and BECOME SAVED AFTER their BODILY DEATH.
* During the Last Tribulations PORTIONS of the EARTH will experience Massive Earthquakes and Massive Fires, leaving MANY Bodily DEAD, (in Disbelief and NOT SAVED)…and leaving MANY “NON-Converted BELIEVERS” to willingly to give their bodily LIFE unto the Lord God.
MANY “NON-BELIEVERS” will have opportunity TO BELIEVE, TO Know their bodily death is eminent AND GIVE their bodily LIFE unto the Lord God…..and thus BECOME SAVED “after” their BODY Physically DIES.
WHY?
For God to FULFILL His Covenant Promise TO SAVE all of His PEOPLE; Faithful ISRAEL.

WHY?
IS the CHURCH Risen UP ABOVE the Face of the EARTH….BEFORE the last days tribulations Sent down from Heaven?
ONE REASON…
The Lord God IS PLEASED with THEM.


The Lord God IS NOT Angry, Disappointed, Need to Correct, Need to Punish, Need to wield His wrath upon Them.

IF you ARE NOT ISRAEL, or a GENTILE having REJECTED Christ Jesus’ OFFERING to BE MADE WHOLE, (body, soul, spirit)….
WHAT EXACTLY do you believe IS YOUR PURPOSE to BE ON the FACE of THE EARTH
DURING the Days GOD sends down Tribulations UPON the face of the Earth and It’s inhabitants?

AND What SCRIPTURES TEACH you, THE PURPOSE and WHAT a CONVERTED man shall be DOING upon the FACE of the EARTH….DURING the Last Days Tribulations Sent down From Heaven?


Surely IF you ARE CONVERTED, and you believe you shall BE ON the face of the Earth During the Tribulation days… YOU know your purpose…? What is it according to Scripture?
Chaotic confusion
 

Taken

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Chaotic confusion
I do not find chaos or confusion in Gods Order, Way, Offerings and a Person being Pleasing to God.

Where are the Scriptures that reveal the purpose of Christs Church being ON Earth DURING the Tribulations sent down from heaven?
 

Timtofly

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They aren't asking who shall be able to survive the wrath of God coming against the whole earth to destroy them all (unbelievers). They are asking who shall be able to stand after His wrath is poured upon the whole earth, and they are called before Him that sitteth on the throne, who shall THEN stand on THAT DAY?
They are hiding during the destruction of earth when everything is burned up per 2 Peter 3.

The tribulation of the Trumpets and Thunders is not even started yet.

They are asking who can stand throughout it all.

You have them dead before they can even ask the question.
 

rwb

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They are hiding during the destruction of earth when everything is burned up per 2 Peter 3.

The tribulation of the Trumpets and Thunders is not even started yet.

They are asking who can stand throughout it all.

You have them dead before they can even ask the question.

You're missing a key word in the verse which says "hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:" They KNOW and with GREAT FEAR that they shall be called to stand before God's face! That's why they long to hide, as if they could, because when they stand before Him at the GWTJ they will not receive God's mercy, but judgment in the lake of fire, that is the second death!
 

Timtofly

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Yes Tim, they shall all be destroyed! That is exactly why they wonder who shall be able to stand on the Day of Him who sits on the throne, because only those who are found in the book of life shall NOT be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death. ALL of the DEAD shall be called to give account before God according to what is found written in the books, and the book of life. NONE of the DEAD shall be able to stand? Meaning whose lives shall be spared at the judgment throne of God, on that DAY none of the dead shall. The question is not asked so they might know, it is being asked because they DO KNOW what their fate shall be

Revelation 6:16 (KJV) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 6:17 (KJV)
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Yes, eventually all on earth will die, but not at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal. Jesus still chooses the 144k. Jesus chooses the sheep, and Jesus Himself is sowing the seed called the wheat, so humans are still alive to be directly judged and redeemed or cast alive into the LOF.

This is not the judgment of the dead in sheol. Certainly they are not asking who will be able to stand, as they already lived, and physically died.

They are not asking about being judged at the GWT event mentioned much later in the book, as that is a thousand years later after they are already dead. They are asking who is going to survive the tribulation. Many here think they get to endure the whole tribulation. That is the same question, no? Who is going to make it all the way to the end and are still enduring Adam's dead corruptible flesh?
 

rwb

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Well said I agree

Amill = No Millennium

I don't believe in a future millennium on this earth, as you, rwb, covenantee, WPM, also believe

Yes we all have differences in surrounding points in eschatology, but we all deny a literal Millennium on this earth (Amill)

I'm beginning to wonder if you really understand the meaning of Amillennialism??? Amils, such as myself, covenantee, WPM do NOT believe there will be a future millennium on this earth. Amillennial = no ONE thousand years on this earth or the one to come. Amil defines a thousand years of Rev as a long period of time that began with the first advent of Christ, I believe shall end in the days when the seventh trumpet shall begin to sound. Though there is a difference of opinion between myself and other Amils regarding the last day, all Amils agree a thousand years is symbolic of time that is of unknown length.

Though you call yourself Amil, and you do not believe a thousand years is ONE thousand literal years, beyond that it is hard to define your eschatological point of view. That is why I believe Amils are generally in disagreement with some of the doctrine you espouse, and still find agreement with much.
 

Timtofly

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How are the saints in heaven after their body has died and returns to dust? Do you deny heaven is NOT a physical place, but is a spiritual place, the habitation of God, Who is Spirit and the heavenly angels who are also spirit beings and not physical beings in heaven?
You do realize that the word for spirit is air? Is air physical or spiritual? That is the point you are asking. You are literally asking the difference between solid and gas.

You have to view Scripture in context. The firmament means fixed, not moving, the very definition of firm. The firmament is physical and the physical makeup is solid because it is firm. The stars are the fiery gas/air pneuma/spirit physical angels/messengers. They are physically air as bright lights in the firmament. They appear in human form when coming to earth with a message.

God is Spirit does not necessarily mean God is air. God is also light. Theology has designated this divide between air and the physical as a separation of just the term spirit into spiritual and physical dealing with earth. The firmament would be solid air like the earth is solid dust. Thus because humans are dust, they are physical. Those in the firmament are air, and called spiritual. But all of creation is still physical with air even underground. Creation is equally both physical and spiritual.

Paul said there was a third part to heaven called Paradise. That indicates the Paradise that Adam was placed in was moved to the firmament at some point. The Tree of life is still in Paradise.

The stars have been called angels throughout Scripture. Why would God put both stars and benign physical objects in the firmament? The stars are the only beings and "objects" in the firmament. They are called fiery air beings. You just see them as fiery spirit beings. The word spirit is air: pneuma.


It would be pointless to even describe the physical makeup of the one sitting on the GWT. Some call God, Father. Which pictures the ultimate Father (a human form) sitting on the throne. God is light and air, a star sitting on a throne with a face, still human form. Yet neither description is what we do think, as we see God as a Spirit totally foreign to the actual makeup of creation. That is how we totally seperate Spirit from the physical form "just air".