When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

[Truth7t7]

Hi im just giving information to consider.

I believe the people who were seeking faith were saved from the great and dreadful day of the Lord when Jerusalem went up in flames. Literal flames of fire along with plagues that cmae upon them for having killed the son of God. Yes i believe they psychially seen Jesus come (the faithful only).

There are also secular writers who seen visions through the clouds but that is something ya gotta just go find out for yourslef such as history, early history at that.


Im really glad all of those things are over…

Once Again, you might believe what you write, but Jesus didn't return in 70AD as you claim

The second coming of Jesus in the clouds of heaven is a "Future" event unfulfilled

 

[MatthewG]

Okay @Truth7t7. Love to you.

Faith is a silly thing, sometimes but only thing that pleases God.

Take care.

 

[Truth7t7]

Youre right. Its by faith i believe those people were taken. And it does teach for their time they were gonna be raptured.

But i dont hate on those who differ with me.

Have a good day. Im okay by faith: so i dont worry about the return of the Lord anymore. I believe he came, and he lives with us now today. As we wait to leave this life and go on that way.

Nobody is hating you as you suggest, your claims that Jesus returned to Jerusalem in 70AD is false and found no place in scripture, Is telling the truth to you hate "No"

 

[MatthewG]

Nobody is hating you as you suggest, your claims that Jesus returned to Jerusalem in 70AD is false and found no place in scripture, Is telling the truth to you hate "No"

No sir.

Its not that i hate “no”, it is that i dont have to accept ones view. Its by faith, i believe he came as promised, so therefore you cant tell me i can not have faith in that.

You see? But listen man i dont wanna keep talking back and forth cause it gets annoying.

You can continue to believr Jesus will come and rescue you, by faith. I cant deny you that.

Everyone in death will see Jesus in my pervue everyone is going to meet him.
Take care dude.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Youre right. Its by faith i believe those people were taken. And it does teach for their time they were gonna be raptured.

But i dont hate on those who differ with me.

Have a good day. Im okay by faith: so i dont worry about the return of the Lord anymore. I believe he came, and he lives with us now today. As we wait to leave this life and go on that way.

It appears that you are a full preterist. That doctrine is not welcome here.

 

[MatthewG]

Okay my apologies posting on your thread then @Spiritual Israelite. Have a good day.
I dont know everything a full pretrist believes; i would consider myself a fulfilment view guy, which means everything was completed as promise. But today we live our lives for God and die and recievr rewards promised to be given for living a life for God.

Praise be to Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay @Truth7t7. Love to you.

Faith is a silly thing, sometimes but only thing that pleases God.

Take care.

He is not pleased with you not believing in the future visible, bodily return of His Son. I promise you that.

 

[MatthewG]

He is not pleased with you not believing in the future visible, bodily return of His Son. I promise you that.

I did not deny that. He did come and they did see him as promised.

… i swear people are just ignorant or just cant read…
And they wanna be a jerk to you when you dont believe like them.


Christians… do better.

 

[MatthewG]

Cannot do the banter.


Good luck to your endeavour and search.

Keep praying and helping others.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I did not deny that.

You are denying that He will come visibly and bodily in the future.

He did come and they did see him as promised.

That is a lie.

… i swear people are just ignorant or just cant read…

You are the ignorant one here. Pray for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

And they wanna be a jerk to you when you dont believe like them.

I'm not going to sugarcoat the truth. You are believing in heresy. He has not yet come. Scripture describes it as the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. To try and say that has already happened is complete nonsense.

Christians… do better.

Do better than to believe the lie that He came back already long ago.

 

[MatthewG]

Its all faith man.


A miracle we can even go to the Father in heaven isnt it?

Seeya bud.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are denying that He will come visibly and bodily in the future.

That is a lie.

You are the ignorant one here. Pray for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

I'm not going to sugarcoat the truth. You are believing in heresy. He has not yet come. Scripture describes it as the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. To try and say that has already happened is complete nonsense.

I Agree 100%, to teach Jesus has come already in 70AD is (Full Preterism) a heretical teaching and belief

 

[Taken]

Your claim is found no place in scripture

Jesus returns in the "Future" second coming at the (7th/Last Trump)

Okay.

in the (Catching Up/Rapture) of the Church,

Do you believe “the Church” are the Converted “IN” Christ?

Do you believe “Christ” is the Lord Jesus?

If so, 1 Thes 4: 16 - 17
~ teaches the Lord descends from Heaven TO the Clouds (not Earth);
~ A Trump is sounded (not the Last Trump);
~ those (bodily) dead IN Christ rise up to the Clouds.
~ those (bodily) alive IN Christ rise up to the Clouds.
~ those IN Christ (are Forever with the Lord).

Conclusion…
Those IN Christ the Lord Jesus (already MADE WHOLE) are caught UP to the Clouds, ARE WITH the Lord Jesus WHEN the LAST TRUMP sounds;
AND:
The are WITH the Lord When He descends FROM the CLOUDS TO the EARTH….to reign ON Earth….(with His saints and with Believing (not converted) mortals for 1,000 years…

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Those “IN” Christ, are “EXPRESSLY” those whose: body, soul, spirit…HAVE BEEN MADE “WHOLE”….
* body Dead, (For God) crucified WITH Jesus’ body.
* soul Saved, (By the Power of God).
* spirit Quickened, (By having received the SEED of God).

* There were Ancient men, who bodily died BELIEVING “IN” God.
* There were Historical men, who bodily died BELIEVING “IN” God and “IN” Jesus.
* There are Modern men, who bodily died BELIEVING “IN” God and “IN” Jesus.
DURING THE TRIBULATION and BEFORE THE ENDING of the TRIBULATION…
* There WILL BE men “DURING the Tribulation” who will DIE, believing “IN” God, “IN” Jesus, and Likely “IN” Jesus is the Christ….

***** ^^^^ ALL OF THOSE “BELIEVERS” “WERE NOT bodily CRUCIFIED WITH Christ Jesus BEFORE the Tribulation Began.

****** ^^^^ Their BODY’S were KILLED (for God) during the Tribulation.

****The SOUNDING of the LAST TRUMP
IS The Lord God “RAISING UP” ALL remaining BELIEVING (souls & spirits) OF men “IN” God, “IN” Jesus…whose BODY’S were KILLED FOR God, during the tribulation AND REMAIN DEAD BODY’S ON Earth.)

**** Their Saved souls and Quickened spirits ARE DEPARTED FROM their Dead BODIES and risen UP to Heaven “WITH God”…..BEFORE THE Wrath of God is poured out of the Bowls/Vials UPON REMAINING Alive WHO REJECTED BELIEVING, “IN” God, “IN” Jesus.

**** Those “saved souls, quickened spirits” risen up, SHALL be returned to their BODY’s….WHEN their Body’s are RISEN UP “from their graves “TO the face of a NEW EARTH” (not heaven).
Which IS the FIRST RESURRECTION…
(Body’s raised from their Earthen Grave TO the New Earth’s surface….
THEN are “THEY”…MADE WHOLE:
Body, soul, spirit.

And those who bodily die, during the VIALS being poured out….
They are raised up Bodily, (in Hell) where their Living soul is, and their living Unsaved souls return to their body.
They SEE the Judge. They Believe. They bow down and Worship the Lord, (fulfilling prophecy). The Books of Evidence are Opened. They will be found Having NOT BELIEVE, before their BODY DIED. The life in their soul (Gods Breath, shall return to God), and their lifeless (void of blood) body, and their lifeless (void of Gods Breath) soul, shall be Destroyed in the Lake of Fire, in Hell, and they remembered no more.
The Second and Last Resurrection.

You have confused “raising up” of saved souls with the resurrection of Body’s.

Gods WHOLE teaching of his KNOWLEDGE, is FOR men to Learn HOW TO BECOME “whole” (body, soul, spirit) in Gods Likeness… and permanently KEEP those MADE “WHOLE”….and permanently SEPARATE those “NOT” MADE “WHOLE”, by, through, of the Power of the God, who IS Christ.

 

[Truth7t7]

Do you believe “the Church” are the Converted “IN” Christ?

Do you believe “Christ” is the Lord Jesus?

If so,

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Dont Be Deceived​

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Taken]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Dont Be Deceived​

Not at all deceived.
Rapture APPLIES expressly TO:
* The Works of the Lord, Claiming His Church.
* The Church is expressly, THE CONVERTED “IN” Christ.
* The CONVERTED, are expressly, those Crucified with Jesus (Bodily dead)
Soul Saved
Spirit Quickened BEFORE the Tribulation Begins.
THEY ARE ALREADY, body, soul, spirit…
MADE WHOLE, and THUS EXCEPTED (Scripture calls it ESCAPED) FROM the Tribulations SENT down from Heaven.

The Tribulations sent down from Heaven ARE SENT DOWN “upon” the “unrighteous”.
The “unConverted” Righteous UPON the EARTH, must FIRST bodily DIE, THEN they become MADE WHOLE, (dead body, saved soul, quickened spirit).
Those ALREADY bodily DEAD, Crucified with Jesus, HAVE Already fulfilled Scripture to DIE ONCE.
The “unConverted” Non-Believing, NON-RIGHTEOUS…SUFFER through the whole of the Tribulations….and those Unrighteous which are NOT bodily killed from the Tribulations…. SHALL SUFFER the Effects of the LAST portion of the Tribulation……the pouring out of the VIALS, mixed with Gods Vengeance, “FOR” their part in “persecuting” BELIEVERS.

You mix together…
ALL people.
The Rapture of the Lord claiming His Church.
The Saving of souls during the Trib of Gods People Israel, their bodily death, and God Raising them up during the First Resurrection.

God SAVES whom He Wills, and WHEN and How He Wills.

The Lord SAVES whom He Wills, and WHEN and How He Wills.

Presently….the MAJORITY of People becoming crucified with Jesus, soul saved, spirit quickened………ARE GENTILES.
The MAJORITY of People that SHALL BE RAPTURED (Converted IN Christ)…ARE GENTILES….(and a minority of ISRAEL who Converted WHILE the Apostles were STILL ALIVE preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and they Accepting that Truth, and Became Converted. There is also a minority TODAY of Israel Converting IN Christ, who also will be RAPTURED….CLAIMED BY the Lord…Risen up to the CLOUDS above the FACE of the Earth, WHILE the Tribulations from Heaven come down to the Face of the Earth, upon ALL Unrighteousness.

Gods PEOPLE ARE ISRAEL.
Presently….the MAJORITY of ISRAEL, believe IN God, but REJECT Jesus is the Christ Messiah. They SUFFER the Wrath of the Lamb….(your know, the ONE they reject).
They first HEAR
* The the Preaching of the 144,000…their OWN PEOPLE “ISRAEL”….they begin Believing…are bodily killed…and SAVED.
* They Hear the Preaching of the Two Witnesses AND observe THEIR POWER given them….their OWN PEOPLE “ISRAEL”….they begin Believing….and the MAJORITY bodily killed….and SAVED, having BELIEVED “AND” REJECTED the mark of the Beast.
* ALL other People, still living ON Earth…
Hear A SINGLE HOLY ANGEL, preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ….THEN SHALL BE FULFILLED, the WHOLE WORLD WILL HEAR the Gospel of Jesus Christ….
* AND ??
* Some will remain mortally ALIVE, BELIEVING.
* ALL others who reject BELIEF, will be KILLED, By, Through, Of Gods Wrath, VIA the pouring out of the VIALS.

THEN SEPARATION OCCURS…
All Unbelievers, Bodily KILLED…souls sent to hell.
Satan and fallen angels sent to hell.

* THEN Does Jesus Return TO EARTH, WITH POWER (who IS Christ), WITH His Saints…
Holy Angels AND His Church…..and CLAIMS “His INHERITANCE”…His KINGDOM…(Abrahams’ Promised Land)
and His THRONE…
(King David’s everlasting Throne in Jerusalem).
* The Believing Surviving Mortals, begin establishing groups, clans, cities, nations, appointing kings to rule their nations.
* They live in harmony between their Nations.
* They have ZERO influence of Satan and fallen angels.
* They the MORTALS (particularly) the Kings (governing heads) and lord (high governing ranking officials)….ARE TAUGHT Christ the Lords WAY of Governing….and DO SO GOVERN their Nations … According to Christ Jesus , whose POSITION OF AUTHORITY IS: the KING of kings, and LORD of lords OVER every Nation on Earth.
* ALL Nations and Peoples work in Harmony……for 1,000 years….UNTIL…Satan is loosed and ALLOWED to once Again CORRUPT THE Nations, CORRUPT THE People, by, through, of his cunning mastery of trickery……..
* AND ?
After 1,000 years of Mortal men being TAUGHT Gods word and Gods way… IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME…the MORTAL men of the Nations World….are CONVINCED BY Satan, to COME AGAINST Christ’s Kingdom to Battle.
* AND?
OOPS, they are all killed.
* HOW?
The Power of that TWO EDGED SWORD…ie the WORD of God coming forth out of Christ Jesus Mouth…and Fire Gods Sends down from Heaven…AGAINST the remaining mortals that which betray the Lord…..and Angelic Holy Angels with the Power of God, DEFEAT the Falling Angels, who are thereafter SENT to the Lake of Fire in Hell forever.

WHAT does ANY of these NEGATIVE EVENTS and WRATH of the Lamb, of the Devil, of God upon the unrighteous and suffering during the Tribulation HAVE to do WITH A man (bodily crucified with Jesus, received his saved soul, received his quickened spirit,) and IS ABOVE the Face of the Earth, DURING the tribulations sent down from Heaven.

You have YET to reveal….
One Scripture of a man MADE “WHOLE”…(ie Converted IN Christ).
Being ON EARTH during the Tribulations sent down from Heaven.

You have YET to reveal….
One Scripture of a man MADE “WHOLE”…
(Ie. Converted IN Christ)
DOING ANYTHING On EARTH during the Tribulations sent down from Heaven.

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You are CHANGING…. A TRUMP summoning UP those IN Christ….into the LAST TRUMP, when it is not the last trump.

Trumps have been sounded all throughout Scripture. They Are Warnings (as are SIGNS) of what was foretold shall SOON be manifested and come to pass.

During the tribulations sent down from Heaven….There are SEVEN specific TRUMPS sounded….
The Lord calling UP TO THE CLOUDS HIS CHURCH….is NOT ONE OF THOSE “specific SEVEN TRUMPS”.

The Lord CLAIMS those body’s, souls, spirits, that BELONG TO CHRIST, by, through, of HIS POWER to Divide and Separate.

God CLAIMS those body’s, souls, spirit, that ARE His PEOPLE ISRAEL, by, through, of HIS POWER to Divide and Separate.

If you notice….the First People at large, were Gods People ISRAEL and the Last SHALL also be Gods People ISRAEL.

The last shall be first and the first shall be last.

It is DURING the Last days Tribulations, God is fulfilling His Promise to ISRAEL, His People.

The Last days IS NOT ABOUT Converted GENTILES, IS NOT ABOUT those IN Christ being appointed to WRATH and SUFFERING, (as it DOES APPLY to those WHO REJECTED God and REJECTED JESUS IS THE CHRIST.)

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think 1 Thes 5.2-3 and "sudden destruction" refers to Jesus' Coming to bring an enormous judgment upon the earth. I wouldn't say that it will completely annihilate the earth, but it will be so comprehensive that one could say it "engulfs the whole earth."

And that's because Antichrist's coalition will be a superpower, impacting and influencing the whole earth. It will bring many nations under judgment.

And the judgment will be so impactful that it will be like the end of an old order and the beginning of a new order. Certainly I don't believe everybody will die in this war. But it will be inescapable by the hostile parties--having started a war with Christianity they will not be able to escape the consequences that God will visit back upon them. It will be devastating conflict.

Some wish to believe this will be the end of the earth as a globe. I happen to believe that the earth is here forever, even as we read in Scriptures. It will be made new in the sense that a new administration from heaven will assume complete control over it, no longer allowing evil administrators to have their full way.

God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning, and He finished His work. He will not start over from the beginning, creating a whole new universe and a whole new earth, in my opinion. Could He do so? Of course! Will He do so? I find insufficient evidence for that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think 1 Thes 5.2-3 and "sudden destruction" refers to Jesus' Coming to bring an enormous judgment upon the earth. I wouldn't say that it will completely annihilate the earth, but it will be so comprehensive that one could say it "engulfs the whole earth."

I don't believe it will annihilate the earth, either, but when you read 2 Peter 3:10-12, which is about the same event as 1 Thess 5:2-3, it's quite clear that fire will come down upon the entire earth. But, in my view, it will come down on the entire earth surface and won't just completely annihilate the entire earth (including the core). Regardless, it's clear to me that no mortals can survive what is described, which is why Paul said in 1 Thess 5:3 "they will not escape". How can anyone escape fire coming down on the entire death? They can't, obviously. The only way to escape that is to be among those whose bodies are change to be immortal and are caught up to meet the Lord in the air when He returns.

And that's because Antichrist's coalition will be a superpower, impacting and influencing the whole earth. It will bring many nations under judgment.

And the judgment will be so impactful that it will be like the end of an old order and the beginning of a new order. Certainly I don't believe everybody will die in this war. But it will be inescapable by the hostile parties--having started a war with Christianity they will not be able to escape the consequences that God will visit back upon them. It will be devastating conflict.

Some wish to believe this will be the end of the earth as a globe. I happen to believe that the earth is here forever, even as we read in Scriptures. It will be made new in the sense that a new administration from heaven will assume complete control over it, no longer allowing evil administrators to have their full way.

God created the heavens and the earth in the beginning, and He finished His work. He will not start over from the beginning, creating a whole new universe and a whole new earth, in my opinion. Could He do so? Of course! Will He do so? I find insufficient evidence for that.

You already know I disagree with all that Antichrist and Antichrist coalition stuff, so I won't comment specifically on that. But, I do agree that it's not talking about the complete annihilation of the heavens and the earth. I see it as Him regenerating the heavens and the earth resulting in the new heavens and new earth that Peter said we are looking forward to in accordance with the promise of His second coming (2 Peter 3:13).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are CHANGING…. A TRUMP summoning UP those IN Christ….into the LAST TRUMP, when it is not the last trump.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

In this passage Paul refers to all who belong to Christ being resurrected "when he comes".

And then a bit later in the same chapter Paul wrote this:

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

So, Paul taught that at the sounding of the last trumpet, "the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed". Do you agree that the dead he is talking about here are the same dead he referenced earlier in 1 Cor 15:22-23?

And, of course, Paul wrote this as well:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 talks about the dead in Christ being raised at the last trumpet and, if you understand the dead in that passage as being the same dead he referenced earlier in verses 22-23, then you can see he was indicating that the last trumpet would sound at His second coming. Which then brings us to 1 Thess 4:14-17 which also talks about the dead in Christ being raised at His second coming. So, what basis is there for thinking that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is a different event than 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 51-52?

 

[Taken]

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

I have said the same;
* All must die.
* All in Christ shall be made alive.
* According to Gods order and way.
* WHEN he comes…
From Where TO Where?

A Trump sounds…1 Thes 4:16
He comes FROM Heaven TO the Clouds.
He call UP to Him TO the Clouds THOSE (Bodily Dead and Bodily Alive) IN Christ.
He meets THOSE IN Christ IN the Air.
Those IN Christ and THEY are Forever WITH Him.
^ Raptured and Changed.

The Last Trump sounds…
He comes FROM the Clouds TO the Earth.
He Raises UP THOSE (Bodily Dead) IN Christ TO the Face of the Earth and THEY are Forever WITH Him.
^ Resurrected and Changed.

KEY…Facts are not the SAME;

Which Trump? A Trump … The Last Trump

Risen to Where? Clouds … Face of the Earth.

Who Risen? IN Christ, Bodily Dead AND Bodily Alive, TO the Clouds….A Trump.
( WITH Christ, WHEN He Returns TO Earth.)

Who Risen? IN Christ, Only Bodily Dead, From Grave TO face of the Earth….The Last Trump.
( WITH Christ, AFTER He Returns to Earth. )

In this passage Paul refers to all who belong to Christ being resurrected "when he comes".

Again…WHEN He comes…FROM WHERE TO WHERE?
From Heaven TO the Clouds?
From the Clouds TO the Earth?

Remember….Witnesses SAW Jesus ascend FROM Earth…TO the Clouds. The Witnesses DID NOT SEE Jesus Enter INTO the high Heaven. Acts 1: 9,10, 11

Remember…An Angel told the Witnesses HE would RETURN from Heaven IN the Same manner. Acts 1: 9,10,11
(Men ON Earth, Would SEE Him Coming “WITH” Clouds.)
The Clouds He comes “WITH”, are THOSE, (dead and alive) CHANGED and Called UP TO the Clouds BY the Signal of A TRUMP, (Which THAT TRUMP Signal IS: the sound of His VOICE.

Remember….Those IN Christ, can HEAR His VOICE? John 10:27

Remember….Those IN Christ, ARE Risen UP TO Him, IN the Clouds. THEY RETURN to Earth WITH Him.

Remember….Those ON Earth, (during the Tribulation ) WHO BECOME IN CHRIST…. ALL BODILY DIE, and are Bodily Risen and Changed, and BECOME “THEN” WITH Him Forever, AFTER He has Returned TO EARTH.
(These are called OF another FOLD.
These are ON Earth during the Tribulations.
These HEAR the gospel of Jesus Christ during the Tribulations.
These during the Tribulations BELIEVE and are Bodily Killed FOR their BELIEF.
These ARE the FOLD of the TRIBES of ISRAEL.

John 10:
[16] And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And then a bit later in the same chapter Paul wrote this:

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

So, Paul taught that at the sounding of the last trumpet, "the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed". Do you agree that the dead he is talking about here are the same dead he referenced earlier in 1 Cor 15:22-23?

And, of course, Paul wrote this as well:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

So, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 talks about the dead in Christ being raised at the last trumpet and, if you understand the dead in that passage as being the same dead he referenced earlier in verses 22-23, then you can see he was indicating that the last trumpet would sound at His second coming. Which then brings us to 1 Thess 4:14-17 which also talks about the dead in Christ being raised at His second coming. So, what basis is there for thinking that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is a different event than 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 51-52?

I have said many times…bit by bit, little by little, According to Gods Order and Way.

Some ARE Christ Jesus’ SHEEP, IN Christ, bodily dead and bodily alive and CAN Hear His Voice, and BE called UP to the Clouds, BEFORE the Tribulations.

Some ARE “NOT” Christ Jesus’ SHEEP, BUT SHALL BECOME IN Christ, during the Tribulations, Bodily Killed, and WHEN He Returns TO EARTH, He shall Bodily Raise THEM UP.

You are mixing two similar EVENTS, that apply to TO DIFFERENT FOLDS….and their TWO DIFFERENT TRUMPS (Calling UP and Raising UP) TO TWO DIFFERENT PLACES at TWO DIFFERENT TIMES.

 

[rwb]

hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

They aren't asking who shall be able to survive the wrath of God coming against the whole earth to destroy them all (unbelievers). They are asking who shall be able to stand after His wrath is poured upon the whole earth, and they are called before Him that sitteth on the throne, who shall THEN stand on THAT DAY?