Where did we get The Bible? - A IN-DEPTH STUDY

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Grailhunter

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The term "Original Sin" can't be found in Scripture, however the same idea can is found in 1 Corinthians 15:22: "As in Adam all die."
I agree, to some degree we have the same tendencies as Adam.

But we are not born with sin on our souls and babies do not go to hell.
The Word of God is enough. We do not need clarification by men.

St. Augustine thought this up…he was mental and hated women and sex because he could never control himself. So he came up with a belief where sin is driven by sex as a contagion and transferred by reproduaction. And if the baby dies it goes to hell. Which is one of John Calvin’s fetishes. Somewhere between goofy, stupid, or insane. And if you are in with them, wear the hat with pride.


Look at this guy he is smiling with pride but he is out of his gourd!

18551326_web1_M-Pumpkin-WNT-190907.jpg
 
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Athanasius377

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  • The only writings that the early Christian believers had outside of the Tanahk were letters that were written by Jesus's apostles to specific Saints in specific churches that were in specific parts of Israel and Asia Minor.
  • There were no printing presses in that day so all manuscripts of either the gospels or the epistles had to be copied by hand if they were to be shared or passed along to other believers in other lands.
  • In addition to the truly inspired, apostolically, authorized writings, there were numerous of counterfeits among the believers in the first century.
  • Knowing which manuscripts were authentic and which were pseud-scripture took some time - a great deal of time.
  • Add in the fact that the distance between where the Gospels and the Epistles were originally written was enormous, that authentication of the writing was at times difficult, and that all copying was done by hand, the Bible, as we know it today was never available to believers for the first 250 years after Christ ascended to heaven.
  • Two hundred and fifty years is a long time - that's more than six biblical generations.
  • And then, even after the contents were somewhat agreed upon by the third Century scholars, the Bible was translated into a language few could read or write (Latin). This meant only the educated and (and due to the unavailability of manuscripts) only the established churches with resources (Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy) had direct open access to the collection of New Testament writings.
  • This would be the general situation for the next 1250 years!
This is a common. Roman polemic against scripture that has been used time and again even though it is factually false. First, there was not a large gap between the events of the NT and the writing of the contents there of. The first christians were Jews who used the Hebrew Old Testament as scripture. The first christians outside of Judea would have used the Greek translation of the OT called the Septuagint, or the LXX since this was the common language of the eastern Roman Empire. The LXX and the Apostle's preaching and teaching would have made up the Rule of Faith. This teaching was handed down (παράδοσις) to the various churches that the apostles founded. These teachings were later written down in the middle of the first century.
The first book of the New Testament was probably Galatians in the 40's AD. We know that Paul's letters were circulated among the various churches from Col 4. The synoptic Gospels were likely written in the 50's ad, with John being later in the early 60's AD. The last book to be written was probably Revelation prior to 70 AD. That means if Christ ascended into heaven in 33AD then the first writings may have been as little as 7 years later. If the findings in Qumran are valid, the fragments of Mark, Romans, 1 Timothy, 2 Peter and James were found as part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. These date between 50-80AD which is extremely early. That means that these documents were already circulating before the close of the first century and probably during the middle part too. Add to that the finding of early papyri such as p52 which dates from the early 2nd century. Oddly enough p52 is from a codex meaning someone bound this in book form with other writings (presumably other books of scripture).

Then you have citations of the NT from the early church fathers such as Clement of Rome in the late first century, Ignatius of Antioch in the early 2nd century. By the mid to late second century you have Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian and so forth.

So to the charge there was no bible as we know it until a much later date. Yes, but to say that is misleading. The fact is there were collections of NT scriptures in the possession of people very early on and they were treated as authoritative.

As to the contents of the New Testament there was a pretty clear consensus right away with the majority of 27 books we now recognize as canonical. The gnostic texts were never really considered as they were clearly a different character and frankly of a different religion. The disputes that regarding the canon were really around a few books, such as 2 and 3 John, 2 Peter, Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. Other texts that were considered by some as canonical were the Apocalypse of Peter, Shepard of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas and the Didache.

Eusebius, the ancient church historian observes regarding the rejected texts:


And further, the character of the style is at variance with apostolic usage, and both the thoughts and the purpose of the things that are related in them are so completely out of accord with true orthodoxy that they clearly show themselves to be the fictions of heretics. Wherefore they are not to be placed even among the rejected writings, but are all of them to be cast aside as absurd and impious.


Eusebius of Caesaria. (1890). The Church History of Eusebius. In P. Schaff & H. Wace (Eds.), & A. C. McGiffert (Trans.), Eusebius: Church History, Life of Constantine the Great, and Oration in Praise of Constantine (Vol. 1, p. 157). Christian Literature Company.

The reality was the NT canon was largely decided by the mid to late second century. Athanasius the Great gives us his list of the NT books we have today in 367 AD. How did he come up with this list? Thankfully for us he told us in the text of his letter:


In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the Evangelist, saying, Forasmuch as some have taken in hand,* to reduce into order for themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who from the beginning were eye-witnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to the fathers; it hath seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by the brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to bring before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as Divine; to the end that any one who has fallen into error may correct those who have led him astray; and that he who continues stedfast in purity, may again rejoice, having these things brought to his remembrance.


Athanasius of Alexandria. (1854). The Festal Epistles of S. Athanasius (H. Burgess, Trans.; pp. 137–138). John Henry Parker; F. and J. Rivington.

Athanasius is pointing to the fact that the canon was already clearly delineated from false writings that is plain to him. Meaning he didn't make up the canonical list he is rather reproducing it.

So when did Rome officially declare what the canon was? April of 1546 at a session of the Council of Trent. I am not suggesting that Rome didn't know what the canon was until the sixteenth century but I am pointing it out to illustrate the absurdity of this "Table of Contents" argument.
 
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St. SteVen

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This is a common. Roman polemic against scripture that has been used time and again even though it is factually false. First, there was not a large gap between the events of the NT and the writing of the contents there of.
Large gap is a relative term.
We have the writing dates for the NT books. 48 to 95 AD
That's 15 to 62 years after 33 AD. Average of 40 years, (a biblical generation later)
Not a large gap between the events of the NT and the writing of the contents thereof? (you say)
 
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St. SteVen

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So when did Rome officially declare what the canon was? April of 1546 at a session of the Council of Trent. I am not suggesting that Rome didn't know what the canon was until the sixteenth century but I am pointing it out to illustrate the absurdity of this "Table of Contents" argument.
But what did this mean for the common person in that time frame?
No way to really judge whether something is biblical when you don't have a Bible, and couldn't read it anyway.

Begs the questions:
- Should we even have a Bible?
- How should it be used?

If salvation is in the Church (capital "C"), of what use is a Bible to the common person? (laity)
The Church decides what it means and what to do with it.

Most of those with Bibles to read today love them.
Some to the point of idolizing them.

Did Jesus say, My sheep read their Bibles and follow me? (nope)
Now we have to have classes on Hearing the Voice of God.
 
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Athanasius377

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Large gap is a relative term.
We have the writing dates for the NT books. 48 to 95 AD
That's 15 to 62 years after 33 AD. Average of 40 years, (a biblical generation later)
Not a large gap between the events of the NT and the writing of the contents thereof? (you say)
I reject the idea that any books of the New Testament was written after 70 AD. Given the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple you would expect some mention of this cataclysmic event. Yet not one mention of the destruction of the central locus of the worship of Israel and the fulfillment of Jesus's own prophecy.
 

Grailhunter

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I reject the idea that any books of the New Testament was written after 70 AD. Given the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple you would expect some mention of this cataclysmic event. Yet not one mention of the destruction of the central locus of the worship of Israel and the fulfillment of Jesus's own prophecy.

Sometime people get mixed up on time references and sequences.

The Gospels were about the ministry of Christ, but Christ might have foretold of the Roman siege of Jerusalem. So the Gospels are about a time period before the siege, but when was the story of the Gospels written down....that is a matter of debate. As far as we know Christ never told the Apostles to write anything down....and the Apostles did not write the Gospels right away, because they believed they were living in the last days and Christ would return soon. Some do not like the idea of Oral Traditions but that was the way back then. The Apostles were preaching the Gospels by word of mouth.

Then we can get into the expense and difficulty with copying things....and that can get a little involved.

The rest of the New Testament was definitely written before 70 AD because what we call scriptures were actually communications to congregations. The letters of Paul were happening real time.
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
Large gap is a relative term.
We have the writing dates for the NT books. 48 to 95 AD
That's 15 to 62 years after 33 AD. Average of 40 years, (a biblical generation later)
Not a large gap between the events of the NT and the writing of the contents thereof? (you say)
I reject the idea that any books of the New Testament was written after 70 AD. Given the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple you would expect some mention of this cataclysmic event. Yet not one mention of the destruction of the central locus of the worship of Israel and the fulfillment of Jesus's own prophecy.
Okay, that would be writing dates of 48 to "70" AD (per your imposed limit)
Still 15 to 37 years after 33 AD.

To put this in perspective...
Imagine the news about the 9/11 disaster coming out in 2016 to 2038. (another 5 years) - LOL
Would we call that a large gap?

The Gospels must not have really been important news?
 

Augustin56

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The word "Tradition" (capital T) in this sense meaning the western/Latin Church? (capital C)
Yes, I knew that. Thanks. (capital T) - LOL

I wonder why the translators goofed up? That "traditions" was supposed to read "teachings"? - Oops!

What happens if we replace 'traditions" (small t) with "teaching"?
... stand firm and hold fast to the teaching you were taught...
Seems as awkward as it is redundant.

Right. So what did you do? Published a book. Terrific.
Translations are not infallible, and most translations have errors, due to complexity of languages and how they are used in a particular culture at the time. Adding fuel to the fire, most people reading a translation have absolutely no training in culture or how language was used at the time it was written. Instead, they filter it through their 21st century viewpoint, opening them up for error.

That being said, this one is not that hard to understand. Take a look at 2 Thes 2:15 for a minute, especially the bold printed part below.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

What is taught by any teacher? Teachings. Beliefs. Doctrine.

And in 2 Thes 2:15, how were these traditions (teachings) taught? Both orally and in writing. Both are of equal authority.

And the book was never, ever meant to be a stand-alone, do-it-yourself instrument to spread the faith. It must always be read and understood within the light of Holy Tradition (Oral tradition that St. Paul referred to in 2 Thes. 2:15) and the living Magisterium of the Church. Christ established a Church to spread His message and it is this Church that compiled the Bible as a tool of the Church. The results of allowing every man, woman, and child to pervert the Scriptures according to their own whims has been a disaster with tens of thousands of man-made, doctrinally disagreeing denominations (and counting). That was never the Lord's desire!
 
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GRACE ambassador

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And in 2 Thes 2:15, how were these traditions (teachings) taught? Both orally and in writing. Both are of equal authority.
Respectfully Disagree, Because God's Preserved Word Is Very Clear:

1)

Psa 138:2 “I will worship toward Thy holy temple, and praise Thy Name for​
Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: for Thou Hast MAGNIFIED Thy
Word Above All THY NAME.”

2)
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to​
myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us​
not to think above That Which Is Written,​
that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."​
(1 Corinthians 4:6 KJV)​
Thus, 'oral tradition' is disobedience to this Plain Statement, and, FurtherMoreOver, how
can it ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ be equal to, and Be "Higher Than All Of God's Holy Name"?

Did not Satan declare that very thing orally (Isaiah 14:14), and then what happened to him?

Hadn't we better "take heed" according to this example, From God's Preserved Word?:

1Co_10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."​
(cp Pro_11:2, 13:10)​

Amen.
 

St. SteVen

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Translations are not infallible, and most translations have errors, due to complexity of languages and how they are used in a particular culture at the time. Adding fuel to the fire, most people reading a translation have absolutely no training in culture or how language was used at the time it was written. Instead, they filter it through their 21st century viewpoint, opening them up for error.

That being said, this one is not that hard to understand. Take a look at 2 Thes 2:15 for a minute, especially the bold printed part below.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

What is taught by any teacher? Teachings. Beliefs. Doctrine.

And in 2 Thes 2:15, how were these traditions (teachings) taught? Both orally and in writing. Both are of equal authority.
Thanks for staying with the discussion.
Thought I might have discouraged you away with some of my replies. (sorry)
But you stayed with it. Thanks. (shows some character) Kudos.

Yes, I agree with an oral tradition.
In fact, I think that MUST be the source for the NT writings.
Nearly 40 years until they were written down.
Obviously the oral tradition had a BIG influence on the text.
 

St. SteVen

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Thus, 'oral tradition' is disobedience to this Plain Statement, and, FurtherMoreOver, how
can it ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ be equal to, and Be "Higher Than All Of God's Holy Name"?

Did not Satan declare that very thing orally (Isaiah 14:14), and then what happened to him?

Hadn't we better "take heed" according to this example, From God's Preserved Word?:
Well...
Let's discuss. Thanks.

Not until the fourth century before the Bible arrived.
And most were still illiterate. So...

How did the word of the Lord go out to the people. Orally.
 
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St. SteVen

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Thanks for staying with the discussion.
Thought I might have discouraged you away with some of my replies. (sorry)
But you stayed with it. Thanks. (shows some character) Kudos.

Yes, I agree with an oral tradition.
In fact, I think that MUST be the source for the NT writings.
Nearly 40 years until they were written down.
Obviously the oral tradition had a BIG influence on the text.
This begs a question...
Translations are not infallible, and most translations have errors, due to complexity of languages and how they are used in a particular culture at the time.
Right.
Here's the question:
If the Gospels were oral traditions (teachings) what effect did this have on what was written down later.
Writing dates were between 48 and 95 AD (or 70 AD, as some have suggested)

Imagine writing about an event 40 years later. Especially after 40 years of oral presentations.
How would this effect the content? There were many direct quotes.
 

Nancy

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Well...
Let's discuss. Thanks.

Not until the fourth century before the Bible arrived.
And most were still illiterate. So...

How did the word of the Lord go out to the people. Orally.
"How did the word of the Lord go out to the people. Orally."

I agree here brother. Just a peek at the below verse say's (no pun...) :D they were listening to the "sent out ones" who were 'Preaching the gospel."

"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
Romans 10:17
 
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Keturah

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Well...
Let's discuss. Thanks.

Not until the fourth century before the Bible arrived.
And most were still illiterate. So...

How did the word of the Lord go out to the people. Orally.
Many, many times this is the  only route by which folks hear the word of God ; oration!
 

Keturah

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I love the KJV, it is my only choice bc of the very language some call archaic...( Yes, I read Shakespeare too).

All in All regardless the version, the word must remain true to the Spirit of God, and WE MUST BE UNDER HIS GUIDANCE THROUGH PRAYER & YIELDING TO him when we study & read.
 
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