Where Do People Go During God's Wrath?

[242006]

This has turned the topic way off course and I don't even see anything resembling what my original topic was seeking...

No it hasn't. To answer the topic question, one has to know the purpose of God's wrath. When one realizes that God's wrath is directed toward those that call themselves 'Christian', one knows that no one is going anywhere during God's wrath.

 

[Duckybill]

The moment a person dies they return to a spiritual body like they had before they were born, and the same type of body we will have when Christ return.

Huh?

 

[TexUs]

Wow Ducky, you had a good eye, I didn't even catch that...
I'm with you... "huh?"

No it hasn't. To answer the topic question, one has to know the purpose of God's wrath. When one realizes that God's wrath is directed toward those that call themselves 'Christian', one knows that no one is going anywhere during God's wrath.

Alright, well I won't finish discussing with you because of:

the same [false] claim that you have made here. Though you are free to label yourself in whatever manner you choose, the fact remains that you have this same base [false] belief.
-- there are many that prefer their foundational doctrines over the Word of God.

 

[tomwebster]

Huh?

The moment a person dies they return to a spiritual body like they had before they were born, and the same type of body we will have when Christ return.

So what is it about my statement that you don't understand? Where do you think we, as humans, come from? We come from God, all souls were created in the first earth age.

 

[Duckybill]

The moment a person dies they return to a spiritual body like they had before they were born, and the same type of body we will have when Christ return.

So what is it about my statement that you don't understand? Where do you think we, as humans, come from? We come from God, all souls were created in the first earth age.

Scripture please.

 

[TexUs]

The moment a person dies they return to a spiritual body like they had before they were born, and the same type of body we will have when Christ return.

So what is it about my statement that you don't understand? Where do you think we, as humans, come from? We come from God, all souls were created in the first earth age.

Psalm 139:13
For you created my inmost being;

you knit me together in my mother’s womb

 

[tomwebster]

Scripture please.

Duck,
There is a Scriptural answer for your question but I need to know where to start for you. Where do you think we, as humans, come from? Where was Christ before He was conceived? Were we created in the image of God? What does that mean to be “created in the image of God?”

Ecc 12:3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
Ecc 12:4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
Ecc 12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

“Silver cord be loosed” here is talking about our (man’s) death and it tells us that when we die our flesh body returns to dust and our spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Duckybill]

Duck,
There is a Scriptural answer for your question but I need to know where to start for you. Where do you think we, as humans, come from? Where was Christ before He was conceived? Were we created in the image of God? What does that mean to be “created in the image of God?”

Ecc 12:3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
Ecc 12:4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
Ecc 12:5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

“Silver cord be loosed” here is talking about our (man’s) death and it tells us that when we die our flesh body returns to dust and our spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I don't believe you're gonna find proof in the Bible.

 

[tomwebster]

I don't believe you're gonna find proof in the Bible.

I just gave it to you in Ecc 12, but apparently you do not understand it. God placed your soul into you on the day you were conceived. You would need to be able to read Scripture with understanding to see that though. There is a reason we are living in the flesh in this second heaven and earth age. Being "born again" means being "born from above." That is why Ecc 12:7 says, " ...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Duckybill]

I just gave it to you in Ecc 12, but apparently you do not understand it. God placed your soul into you on the day you were conceived. You would need to be able to read Scripture with understanding to see that though. There is a reason we are living in the flesh in this second heaven and earth age. Being "born again" means being "born from above." That is why Ecc 12:7 says, " ...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

That still does not mean that we existed before we were conceived in the womb. God's has ALWAYS known everything and everyone that would ever happen, but that's not what you are saying.

 

[tomwebster]

That still does not mean that we existed before we were conceived in the womb. God's has ALWAYS known everything and everyone that would ever happen, but that's not what you are saying.

You will need to just put it on the shelf for now, someday maybe you will understand, now is just not that time.

 

[Duckybill]

You will need to just put it on the shelf for now, someday maybe you will understand, now is just not that time.

I do understand.

Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV)
[sup]27 [/sup]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

 

[tomwebster]

I do understand.

Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV)
[sup]27 [/sup]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Correct, the flesh body dies one time only, and flesh returns to dust. The spirit and soul (the soul is the intellect of the spirit) return to God. Ecc 12:7 says, "...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." When you die you return to God. The word “return” implies that you have been there before. Before you became flesh you were with God. Need to read Ezekiel and Isaiah on the subject also. This is not Scripture 101, it is deeper than that.

 

[Duckybill]

Correct, the flesh body dies one time only, and flesh returns to dust. The spirit and soul (the soul is the intellect of the spirit) return to God. Ecc 12:7 says, "...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." When you die you return to God. The word “return” implies that you have been there before. Before you became flesh you were with God. Need to read Ezekiel and Isaiah on the subject also. This is not Scripture 101, it is deeper than that.

You still have no proof that we lived before conception in the womb. None.

 

[Duckybill]

Are you preaching re-incarnation?

 

[tomwebster]

Are you preaching re-incarnation?

Absolutely not, there is no reincarnation.

 

[veteran]

Per Apostles Paul and Peter, the day of The LORD is timed with the day of destruction of our enemies.

Isa 13:6-13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in His going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.
(KJV)

Mal 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(KJV)

God even said His enemies will be like ashes under our feet in the day that He does that. We would have to still be here on earth through that for the wicked being as ashes under our feet on that day.

Something many forget about is that our GOD is a consuming fire (Heb.12). His Fire is not exactly like our concept of fire on this earth, which it burns everything in its path.


II Ki 1:8-12
8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.
9 Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, "Thou man of God, the king hath said, 'Come down.' "
10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, "If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty." And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
11 Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, "O man of God, thus hath the king said, 'Come down quickly.' "
12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, "If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty." And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
(KJV)

How is it that Elijah could be standing right in front of those fifty, two times even, with God bringing fire down from Heaven to burn them up, and it not touching Elijah one bit?

Even in 1 Kings 18 when Elijah called upon God to burn the sacrifice up, only the sacrifice, the wood, the stones, and the water Elijah poured around it in a trench were affected.

Our Heavenly Father can aim His wrath upon the wicked without touching His servants. His Fire is different from man's concept and understanding of fire.

That's why the false prophets love to taunt God's people who have not understood this from His Word about the day of His wrath. They've been busy trying to instill fear into the hearts of God's people in Christ Jesus, trying to make us believe that day is going to be all out nuclear holocaust and fire that man creates from it. Those are doctrines from Christ's enemies who try to scare us into wanting to flee off this earth on that day.


Our Lord showed specifically in Zech.14 about the plague of fire on that day and who it will be upon...

Zech 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
(KJV)

Zech 14:15-17
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
(KJV)


Christ's saints still on earth that day will be changed (1 Cor.15), but His enemies only will experience that plague of His wrath. And He points that plague being specifically upon a PORTION of the nations that come upon Jerusalem on that last day, for even some of those nations will be spared as shown above. We are not going anywhere until that's over, because in Zech.14:1-8 our LORD shows that great destruction in the area near Jerusalem happens first, then a great valley is formed by Christ's feet touching down there, and then we flee there to be with Christ, in that order. This is why our Lord Jesus said in Luke 21:20-21 for His servants in Judea at that time to flee to the mountains, and for those in the countries to not enter therein. It's the day of His vengeance upon His enemies, not His servants who wait on His coming.

But the wicked hosts, they indeed have something to fear today with that coming wrath.

 

[TexUs]

" ...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You are hungup on the physical, in my opinion.
If I give you joy by a kind word... Is that a physical movement of joy from one place or the other, or would we just be expressing who gave you joy? The joy was created INSIDE OF YOU- but we express this as me being the cause of that joy.

I think that's a semi-decent analogy to what's going on here.

God gave us our souls, just like I can give someone joy. This is not a physical transfer, here... The souls were created inside of us by God. Thus, he GAVE us our soul without physically transporting it from one place to the other.

And then some day they will RETURN to the Creator.

Again, I don't see the hangup here. It's really not a difficult verse, and it's definitely a very poor argument when that's all you are basing your argument off of, in light of other texts:


Psalm 139:13
[font="Arial][size="4"]For you created my inmost being; [/size][/font][font="Arial][size="4"]you knit me together in my mother’s womb[/size][/font]

Our Heavenly Father can aim His wrath upon the wicked without touching His servants. His Fire is different from man's concept and understanding of fire.

I personally feel, if there are saints on earth during God's wrath (debatable)... This must be the case.
However, like I said, with all waters turning to blood, etc... Christians can't avoid it if it's a truly GLOBAL scale, and I think this is once more, shown the folly of taking prophecy so literal.
Without water, nothing grows nor lives. This would affect the saints as well. (Unless you believe the blood turns into water when they drink it or something- a far stretch from what the Bible speaks of though). So literalist interpretation, as usual, is in trouble on things like this. And this assumes the saints are here through all the wrath.
Unless you can assume that the bowls happen rapidly- and the Christians can survive. (Which would fly in the face of the literalist's 7 year tribulation period).


Now... If the saints are absent during the wrath- it won't affect them. However the problem with my position is, to be honest, my original question of where the saints go and how they're taken care of. This might be something we chalk up to "I don't know". Because I don't think a "rapture" to heaven and back down to earth is Biblical. So my hands are in conflict with one another a bit.


Both sides: I see problems with.

 

[tomwebster]

You are hungup on the physical, in my opinion.

Is the spirit physical??????????

If I give you joy by a kind word... Is that a physical movement of joy from one place or the other, or would we just be expressing who gave you joy? The joy was created INSIDE OF YOU- but we express this as me being the cause of that joy.

I think that's a semi-decent analogy to what's going on here.

:blink: :blink: :blink:

God gave us our souls, just like I can give someone joy. This is not a physical transfer, here... The souls were created inside of us by God. Thus, he GAVE us our soul without physically transporting it from one place to the other.
And then some day they will RETURN to the Creator.

Again, I don't see the hangup here. It's really not a difficult verse, and it's definitely a very poor argument when that's all you are basing your argument off of, in light of other texts:

Psalm 139:13
For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb

We obviously have a totally different view of Scripture and our three part being. Our “soul” some little ‘feeling’ like ‘joy,’ the soul is the intellect of the spirit.

I personally feel, if there are saints on earth during God's wrath (debatable)... This must be the case.
However, like I said, with all waters turning to blood, etc...
Now... If the saints are absent during the wrath- it won't affect them. However the problem with my position is, to be honest, my original question of where the saints go and how they're taken care of. This might be something we chalk up to "I don't know". Because I don't think a "rapture" to heaven and back down to earth is Biblical. So my hands are in conflict with one another a bit.


Both sides: I see problems with.

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Where did God “take” Daniel when he was in the lion’s den, or where did God take the three Hebrew boys, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego when they were in the fire? Did God fly them somewhere? NO! He was there in the fire WITH them.

 

[TexUs]

When/if you're able to address posted Scripture you might get another reply from me.