Tis an interpretation still. The NT was not written in English in case you didn't know Ducky.
Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?
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until a person is resurrected, they are dead though. So they are all unconscious until they are risen.
when Jesus told the man he would be with him in paradise, he could not have meant 'on that specific day' because Jesus was dead for 3 days.
the other problem is that the greek word for paradise means 'garden' ... so it is really speaking about an earthly place. And its not likely that the sinner would have be resurrected to heaven, because only those who have followed Jesus are said to go there
Revelation 14;1 "And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand
....who have been bought from the earth. 4 ...These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish
That man was a sinner who was not a follower of Jesus...
Not only that, but later it was said that no one had ascended to heaven...not even King David... so the idea that everyone goes to heaven as if it is the paradise is a false idea not based on scritpures:
Acts 2:29 “Men, brothers, it is allowable to speak with freeness of speech to YOU concerning the family head David, that he both deceased and was buried and his tomb is among us to this day. 30 Therefore, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath that he would seat one from the fruitage of his loins upon his throne, 31 he saw beforehand and spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in Ha′des nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear. 34 Actually David did not ascend to the heavens,
So the paradise is really a place on earth.... it is the earth. And Jesus was telling that man that he would be resurrected in the paradise at a future time when the resurrection from the dead takes place:
Acts 24:15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
Daniel 12:2 And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life
Both good and bad people will be resurrected... this is why hell and death will be no more... Because the resurrection from the dead will free everyone who has ever died. That is why some christians refuse to accept that hell is a place for fire and torment. It cant' be because it wont exist.
I have taken a hebrew course, but i am in no way proficient in speaking hebrew. I can however use a hebrew dictionary to find the translation of hebrew words into english and I can identify those words in the hebrew bible.
Sheol = grave of mankind. It is the hebrew word which is translated as hell in english. Im not interested in what the english meaning of the word is because we all know that words change meaning over time. So the only word we should be interested in is the one the hebrews used to describe their spiritual truths....the truths revealed by God.
If you want to know the truth, you have to know the hebrew words and what they mean. It doesnt take much to look up the original word in hebrew.
Sheol (
And Vetran, i should add that the 2nd death is for those who are resurrected, but remain disobedient to God during the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Anyone who, after being resurrected, remain disobedient to God, will be put back to sleep.
that is why the 2nd death takes place...and afterward, death and hell are said to then be thrown into the lake of fire and completely destroyed because then all who are remaining alive, will remain alive forever.
Pegg,
Some very sound exposition in your reply to Veteran and Ducky. Your understanding on the death state, second death and Hebrew words are correct as revealed through the Holy Scriptures. Your comment regarding the need to understand original Hebrew & Greek is essential for discovering Bible Truth.
Take care.
Insight
Some very sound exposition in your reply to Veteran and Ducky. Your understanding on the death state, second death and Hebrew words are correct as revealed through the Holy Scriptures. Your comment regarding the need to understand original Hebrew & Greek is essential for discovering Bible Truth.
Take care.
Insight
Ummmmmmm, yeah, Pegg, -- just keep following doctrines, and avoiding Scripture, as your Post #838 so conveniently left out the second portion of the Daniel 12:2 verse:
Daniel 12:2 And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life
Daniel 12:2 (in entirety)
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
But if you're content with false teaching from a church or here in this Forum,please be aware that it's YOUR OWN future which you risk:
1 Cor 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. [sup]27[/sup] If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. [sup]28[/sup] But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. [sup]29[/sup] Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
Please do not blindly follow doctrines, but judge ALL against Scripture.
BibleScribe
But not my 'interpretation' as you are implying. I don't know of any English Bible that doesn't agree that Hell is literal and eternal.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I haven't studied even one English Bible that agrees with you. Hell is real and eternal.I have taken a hebrew course, but i am in no way proficient in speaking hebrew. I can however use a hebrew dictionary to find the translation of hebrew words into english and I can identify those words in the hebrew bible.
Sheol = grave of mankind. It is the hebrew word which is translated as hell in english. Im not interested in what the english meaning of the word is because we all know that words change meaning over time. So the only word we should be interested in is the one the hebrews used to describe their spiritual truths....the truths revealed by God.
If you want to know the truth, you have to know the hebrew words and what they mean. It doesnt take much to look up the original word in hebrew.
Sheol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ shee-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ shee-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl) is the "grave", "pit", or "abyss" in Hebrew.[sup][1][/sup][sup][2][/sup] She'ol[sup][3][/sup] is the earliest conception of the afterlife in the Jewish scriptures. It is a place of darkness to which all dead go, regardless of the moral choices made in life, and where they are "removed from the light of God" (see the Book of Job). In the Tanakh sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous flesh, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job.
And Vetran, i should add that the 2nd death is for those who are resurrected, but remain disobedient to God during the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Anyone who, after being resurrected, remain disobedient to God, will be put back to sleep.
that is why the 2nd death takes place...and afterward, death and hell are said to then be thrown into the lake of fire and completely destroyed because then all who are remaining alive, will remain alive forever.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
On what????? If there's no eternal Hell then we are free to do whatever.... But there is an eternal Hell whose fire is not quenched. Never.
Make up your mind Insight. Is there an eternal Hell or not?
Just because you "don't know" about them doesn't mean they don't exist. Have you looked at Young's literal, The Concordant literal, or Rotherham's emphasized? These are all English translations and do not support your paradigm concerning unending torment.
Your desire to make the cessation of life a flippant thing is not a Scriptural example.
There are only two ways presented Ducky:
That of death and that of life:-
Life via the Spirit of God, or death in the flesh; you will be a sheep or a goat; a good fish or a bad fish; your life Ducky will be revealed at the judgment to be a vessel to honor or a vessel to dishonor.
Two characters are presented to you, should you put away the error and seek truth; they are the character of God or the character of man (animal) See Isa 55:8,9 & Eph 2:3
Should you hold onto all the filthy doctrines of men then you will fear in those last moments of your life, as it comes up into your mind that "no one will remember you when you are dead and you will not be able to praise any god from the grave Psa 6:5
So your comment about not worrying?
Depends!
It depends on whether you desire to lie silent in the grave for eternity (Psa 115:17) or whether you desire to take part in an everlasting Kingdom, one that is indescribable and incomprehensible in its purity and magnitude.
Maybe you need images of eternal torture to be your motivation for loving God and His Son? The reality Ducky is God sets before you life and death Jer 21:8, not life and eternal punishment.
You may read the Scriptures and in them have life John 5:39 but you may find otherwise - The man with the 1 Talent thought Jesus was a hard man harsh and unjust in his requirements of his servants - I see this a great deal in you Ducky - one who holds a belief in a God who is allowing of eternal torture and punishment cannot be a God of Grace and Mercy but a hard unforgiving God who has lost control of His Heavenly Realm due to Sin and cannot bring peace, even to the wicked!
That’s right Ducky...a God who cannot bring peace to the wicked is not the God I worship and Love and if you read the Bible and weigh His Character even in your balances - He is not the god you worship either.
I will leave you with Psalm 1 to mediate upon
The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment or sinners in the congregation of the righteous; for the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.
Even in the death of the wicked, God is merciful and gracious abounding in love; He allows them to perish that the remembrance of them is forgotten.
That is sufficient Ducky
God bless
Insight
There's no mistaking what "paradise" our Lord Jesus was speaking of. In the Greek Septuagint OT, the word for Eden is paradise. Also, there's no evidence that our Lord's Spirit stayed with His dead flesh body in the tomb. Instead, there's evidence in The New Testament that His Spirit went to preach to the "spirits in prison".
The Rev.14 Scripture about those upon Mount Zion with our Lord Jesus is still... future tense. It hasn't happened yet today. Heaven is simply about the heavenly dimension. Satan and his angels and the pit are in that heavenly dimension, not our earthy dimension. There's two sides in Heaven, even as Rev.12:7-9 reveals when Satan's future war with Michael in Heaven reveals. That follows the pattern our Lord Jesus gave in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man. The book of Enoch (Ethiopic) follows that same pattern too. Likewise with Matt.10:28 where Jesus said don't fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul.
The Acts 2 Scripture from David's prophecy is often mistaught. How is it you haven't understood that David was not speaking of himself, but about Christ's Resurrection?
Acts 2:31-32
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
(KJV)
Per Apostle Peter, Christ preached to the "spirits in prison".
God's Garden is definitely not on this earth in our material dimension. That we can be very certain of.
Jesus told the malefactor crucified with Him that he'd be with Him in Paradise, that day. I know those on the 'dead in the ground' theory try to make that say something else, but it's really too simply written to be able to mess with. That God's Paradise is not of our earthly dimension is also testified of by Apostle Paul in 2 Cor.12 about the one who was caught up to Paradise to the third heaven. No one except Christ Jesus has been caught up to God's Throne in Heaven. But into the heavenly dimension itself to a place called Paradise, that's another story.
The resurrection of 1 Cor.15 on the "last trump" has not happened yet. But there have... already been some raised from the dead after Christ's Resurrection, specifically those when He died on the cross. Per Rev.20:14-15, the abode of the wicked called 'hell' is not destroyed until the "lake of fire" event at the end of Christ's thousand years reign. And maybe you still haven't noticed that the abode of hell goes into... the "lake of fire" and is destroyed. That's means hell and the lake of fire are two separate things per God's Word.
I've studied the Hebrew and Greek some myself, and I refer to Lexicons when I do Bible study. But that still doesn't gurantee one learned in Hebrew and Greek is going to understand this matter fully, for even Nicodemus couldn't understand it when our Lord Jesus tried to explain to him that one must be born again of water and The Spirit in order to have everlasting life (John 3). The language barrier exists even for Bible scholars on this, otherwise they wouldn't be so divided on this matter also. It's because whether going into the Hebrew, or the Greek about it, God's Word is using metaphorical speech to define something that languages are limited in scope to define.
Not only that, but there's many English speaking people that don't have a good grasp of English grammar even, so all the new Bible translations aren't going to help them, but only confuse them all the more on matters such as this.
So give us some quotes. If forever doesn't mean forever then tell us what it means.
Revelation 20:10 (ESV)
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (ASV)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NIV)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (YLT)
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.
Revelation 20:10 (WesleyNT)
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where both the wild beast and the false prophet are: and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (BBE)
10 And the Evil One who put them in error was sent down into the sea of ever-burning fire, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their punishment will go on day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (MontgomeryNT)
10 and the devil who had been deceiving them was hurled into the lake of fire and brimstone, where lie also the beast and the false prophet. And they will be tortured day and night, forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (Darby)
10 And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages.
Revelation 20:10 (MaceNT)
10 the devil that seduced them, shall be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NLT)
10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NRSV)
10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (TLB)
10 Then the devil who had betrayed them will again be thrown into the Lake of Fire burning with sulphur where the Creature and False Prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (WEY)
10 and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.
If you're right I have nothing to worry about. If people spend eternity in Hell based on what you tell them you will be held accountable.
For ever does mean for ever but aion doesn't, which is in the ancient Greek text.
Revelation 20:10
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. YLT
10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. TCT
Rotherham's states that they shall be tormented day and night, until the ages of the ages.
Revelation 20:10
and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. YLT
10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. TCT
Rotherham's states that they shall be tormented day and night, until the ages of the ages.
Your trademark Veteran - - wild sweeping assumptions with no Bible support.
Jesus was entirely held by the grave (Hell) for three days until his Father released him from its chains.
The agony Jesus experienced going into the grave enabled Christ to be "born" of the Holy Spirit from the tomb. See Col 1:18 & Rev 1:5. His death was total cessation of life and breath in the grave where he experienced no existence, at all, three days. Psa 116:3; 118:27.
Therefore if God raised Jesus "to life" and you state that life was already in existence then your concept of “life” and mine are at odds. Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. And if the body is as you say it is, why does 1Pe 1:21 tell us plainly that his raising him from the dead resulted in his “glorification” in God?
If in fact he was always with the Father?
The truth:
The Spirit of God was in the mind of Jesus and when that mind ceased to function, so did the Spirit in him. However, when God raised His son and immortalised the Spirit Mind within His body he was raised immortal and glorified. Of course God seated his Son at his right hand a position not previously held. Eph 1:20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms.
You have many issues to overcome Veteran.
1[sup]st[/sup] If Jesus already held this glorified position then his raising to life carries no importance at all!
2[sup]nd[/sup] If Jesus possessed an immortal essence within him and that essence returned to the Father we must ask in what way did Jesus die? And how did he fulfil the animal sacrifices under the law?
3[sup]rd [/sup] If Jesus rose to a “new life” but you say he already possessed that life – what makes it new? Rom 6:4
4[sup]th[/sup] If Jesus pre-existed because he possessed an immortal spirit; do you also believe that all people pre existed?
5[sup]th[/sup] If Jesus is our brother in a way which God (Yahweh is not) and Jesus was the firstfruits of the resurrection 1Co 15:20 and if all people experience the same sleep as he himself underwent what is the nature of that sleep given that David, Abraham, Isaac & Jacob are in the ground to this day having not received their reward? Heb 11
[sup]Heb 11:39[/sup] These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, [sup]40[/sup] since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
- So the promise of eternal life is not theirs..yet
- They sleep in the ground awaiting their reward
- None of them are made perfect – to mean that nothing about them is immortal
- God has left them in the earth because He is calling a people for His name so that both the Jew and Gentile can be made perfect together.
And in what way is he like his brothers who now sleep in him awaiting the resurrection?
Insight
How can the "spirit" go back to God who gave it, (Eccl 12:7) and yet be imprisoned in hades?
Does He allow a part of Himself to be tortured forever?
"Spirits in Prison" 1 Peter 3:19
We know that angels are called "spirits" Hebrews 1:7 and they are seen in bodily form. Lot called them "men" in Gen 19:1,8 and Jacob wrestled with one of them in Gen 32:24. Similarly, the Apostle John teaches believers to "try the spirits" in 1 John 4:1 but the same verse identifies the spirits with false prophets.
I wonder if Veteran has thought this through?
Insight
We know that angels are called "spirits" Hebrews 1:7 and they are seen in bodily form. Lot called them "men" in Gen 19:1,8 and Jacob wrestled with one of them in Gen 32:24. Similarly, the Apostle John teaches believers to "try the spirits" in 1 John 4:1 but the same verse identifies the spirits with false prophets.
I wonder if Veteran has thought this through?
Insight
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