Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?
- Thread starter veteran
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
the hebrew scriptures are clear when it says that the soul is the body and therefore it is not immortal
when the body dies, so does all consciousness.
Eccl 9:5 .For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all
so how could anyone believe that when a person dies, they remain conscious in a tormenting burning fire??? God has told us what the punishment for disobedience is....it is death. The opposite of life. That is the punishment forever eternally.
when the body dies, so does all consciousness.
Eccl 9:5 .For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all
so how could anyone believe that when a person dies, they remain conscious in a tormenting burning fire??? God has told us what the punishment for disobedience is....it is death. The opposite of life. That is the punishment forever eternally.
LOL,
Just to examine the comment on this one verse, one should ask, -- why is the shame and contempt "everlasting", if it's only for the duration of judgment and condemnation? Is this like Judge Judy, who occasionally rambles -- like for ~eternity~? LOL
Or maybe because there is no "time" dimension in heaven, this brief process feels like ~eternity~ but it's really only a short time. -- Kinda like waiting for the wife to get ready for church. LOL
But I would argue that when people twist Scripture to achieve their personal doctrines, with wordy excuses why they're right, -- it's like eternity. ROFL
So maybe hell isn't eternal, -- it only feel like it because of lengthy arguments by doctrinally driven individuals. PMUOTF [pick me up off the floor]
BibleScribe
BibleScribe
I have read through your LOL's and found your response EOS (empty of substance).
Do you actually have an understanding on Dan 12? or just a meaningless critique? Maybe next time you can bring THS (The Holy Scriptures) in hand.
Lets seeshall we...
Wow. It's as though "Insight" lifted the weight of the world. What strength of argument, What skill of balance. What hypocrisy. LOL -- I address whether "eternal" pertains to the period of "judgment and condemnation",and "Insight" responds with a vacuum of substance.
The fact is, Scripture confirms itself in multiple instances regarding the eternal soul of man, -- whether in heaven or hell. But dishonest denominations would attempt to deceive us as though we should turn to them for guidance. And thus what satan offered in the Garden (a lie disguised as ~information~), so too that offer in this Forum.
Fortunately many of those who know the TRUTH refute the deceptions, so that the lessor informed may not fall prey. And of course, those who follow and attempt to perpetuate such lies are already self deceived, and have no need for the TRUTH. As such this is merely their attempt to snare any who might be unaware:
Psalm 91:3
Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence.
Psalm 119:110
The wicked have laid a snare for me,Yet I have not strayed from Your precepts.
Psalm 141:9
Keep me from the snares they have laid for me,And from the traps of the workers of iniquity.
Proverbs 22:5
Thorns and snares are in the way of the perverse; He who guards his soul will be far from them.
Jeremiah 5:26
‘ For among My people are found wicked men;They lie in wait as one who sets snares; They set a trap; They catch men.
I pray none should be caught unaware by such deceptions.
BibleScribe
... and if I might add a perspective for "Pegg". -- You might consider that "death" is not a cessation of existence, but simply separation. Thus when we die on earth, we are separated from this dimension to a new dimension. And in this new dimension, we continue to exist, -- exactly as Scripture provides.
Hope this helps,
BibleScribe
I dont have to be a hebrew expert to believe what the scriptures say.
The bible is the authority on these matters because the bible is from God. If you want to know what the authority of man says about such things, you are free to believe their explanation.... i'll just stick to what the bible says though.
Wow. It's as though "Insight" lifted the weight of the world. What strength of argument, What skill of balance. What hypocrisy. LOL -- I address whether "eternal" pertains to the period of "judgment and condemnation",and "Insight" responds with a vacuum of substance.
The fact is, Scripture confirms itself in multiple instances regarding the eternal soul of man, -- whether in heaven or hell. But dishonest denominations would attempt to deceive us as though we should turn to them for guidance. And thus what satan offered in the Garden (a lie disguised as ~information~), so too that offer in this Forum.
Fortunately many of those who know the TRUTH refute the deceptions, so that the lessor informed may not fall prey. And of course, those who follow and attempt to perpetuate such lies are already self deceived, and have no need for the TRUTH. As such this is merely their attempt to snare any who might be unaware:
Psalm 91:3
Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler And from the perilous pestilence.
Psalm 119:110
The wicked have laid a snare for me,Yet I have not strayed from Your precepts.
Psalm 141:9
Keep me from the snares they have laid for me,And from the traps of the workers of iniquity.
Proverbs 22:5
Thorns and snares are in the way of the perverse; He who guards his soul will be far from them.
Jeremiah 5:26
‘ For among My people are found wicked men;They lie in wait as one who sets snares; They set a trap; They catch men.
I pray none should be caught unaware by such deceptions.
BibleScribe
... and if I might add a perspective for "Pegg". -- You might consider that "death" is not a cessation of existence, but simply separation. Thus when we die on earth, we are separated from this dimension to a new dimension. And in this new dimension, we continue to exist, -- exactly as Scripture provides.
Hope this helps,
BibleScribe
Still nothing on Dan 12?
But plenty of garble....
We shall still see
LOL,
Just to examine the comment on this one verse, one should ask, -- why is the shame and contempt "everlasting", if it's only for the duration of judgment and condemnation? Is this like Judge Judy, who occasionally rambles -- like for ~eternity~? LOL
Or maybe because there is no "time" dimension in heaven, this brief process feels like ~eternity~ but it's really only a short time. -- Kinda like waiting for the wife to get ready for church. LOL
But I would argue that when people twist Scripture to achieve their personal doctrines, with wordy excuses why they're right, -- it's like eternity. ROFL
So maybe hell isn't eternal, -- it only feel like it because of lengthy arguments by doctrinally driven individuals. PMUOTF [pick me up off the floor]
BibleScribe
I reposted this so others may question see the value of your Dan 12 exposition? I am hoping you will return and provide something of meaning.
Insight
Moreover, if hell is the place of 'eternal torment' then how is it that it goes into the "lake of fire" to be destroyed along with death?
The Eccl.9 Scripture is speaking of the dead that do not rise when talking about those who know not anything in the grave. In some places in the KJV, the translators used the word 'dead' when the Hebrew is pointing to the dead that will never rise (resurrection), like in Isaiah 26:14 with "deceased", pointing to the Rephaim (giants). Christ showed in Luke 16 what happens after flesh death, that there is conscious awareness, also with the malefactor He said would be with Him in Paradise that day. This is why Apostle Paul and... our Lord Jesus, used the idea of sleep to point to the believer that dies in the flesh.
... and if I might add a perspective for "Pegg". -- You might consider that "death" is not a cessation of existence, but simply separation. Thus when we die on earth, we are separated from this dimension to a new dimension. And in this new dimension, we continue to exist, -- exactly as Scripture provides.
Hope this helps,
BibleScribe
Pegg,
I hope you will forgive my less than complete post. For where the first death is separation from our body, the second death is separation from GOD. But for those who accepted Salvation, there is no subsequent separation from GOD, and this is deemed "life". And so our future is as Scripture provides, with eternity for either choice.
BibleScribe
If you are not expert in Hebrew then how do you know?
Because the NT says so.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Pegg,
I hope you will forgive my less than complete post. For where the first death is separation from our body, the second death is separation from GOD. But for those who accepted Salvation, there is no subsequent separation from GOD, and this is deemed "life". And so our future is as Scripture provides, with eternity for either choice.
BibleScribe
Bible?
Hey your right Ducky, the new testament was most definitely not written originally in Hebrew no more than it was in English.
But it has been translated into Hebrew just as it has been translated into English.
I assume by your post that you do not believe that God is omnipresent.Pegg,
I hope you will forgive my less than complete post. For where the first death is separation from our body, the second death is separation from GOD. But for those who accepted Salvation, there is no subsequent separation from GOD, and this is deemed "life". And so our future is as Scripture provides, with eternity for either choice.
BibleScribe
You missed the point Jiggy. She was professing to know Hebrew. She disagrees with our English Bibles. Please elaborate Pegg. Are you saying that you know Hebrew better than the writers of our English Bibles? How about Greek? The JW's wrote their own English Bible, in case you didn't know Jiggy. And it disagrees with every English Bible I have studied.
Luke 16 was a parable... you can't take that literally. Jesus was speaking about
the Jews who were going to reject him. The rich man was the Jews who had all
the promises from the Old Covenant, they were clothed in purple and fine linen,
and fared sumptuously every day... so the rich man is identified as the rulers of
the Judean nation. Another identifying mark for the rich man was that he had five
brothers (Luke 16:28). The patriarch Judah had five brothers born in Gen. 29 and
30. They are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulon.
The rich man feasted every day (on the Word).
Lazarus, on the other hand, first represents the lost house of Israel, which, at that
time, was “laid [ballo, to cast down] at his gate.” The Greek word, ballo, is usually
translated “cast” in the New Testament.
Lazarus represents the house of Israel that had been cast down and cast out of
the land from 745-721 B.C. We read of this in 2 Kings 17:20,
20 And the Lord rejected all the descendants of Israel and afflicted
them and gave them into the hand of plunderers, until He had cast
them out of His sight.
Thus, Lazarus represents the house of Israel that had been cast out many
centuries before the time of Christ. He was the beggar at the gate, who
could only receive a few crumbs from the rich man's table, for they were
largely cut off from the Word of God at that time.
The parable portrays both Lazarus and the rich man dying. Since these men
represent Israel and Judah, the parable shows the ultimate fate of each nation
after these nations were destroyed. The house of Israel, like Lazarus, would be
restored to Abraham's bosom (the promise of God, the New Covenant). The
majority portion of the house of Judah, which rejected Jesus, would go into a time
of “torment,” which they themselves affirm continuously.
The rich man wanted someone to go to his living brethren and warn them. However,
we read in Luke 16:31,
31 But he said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.
Elsewhere, in John 5:46, 47, Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews who opposed Him,
46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me.
47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?
And this came to pass. When Jesus rose from the dead, the temple priests knew the
truth but still did not believe. In fact, they are responsible for blinding the eyes of the
rest of the Judeans, most of whom would have believed in Christ if their leaders had
not deceived them. Matt. 28:11-15 says,
11 Now while they were on their way, behold, some of the guard came
into the city and reported to the chief priests all that had happened.
12 And when they had assembled with the elders and counseled
together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers,
13 and said, You are to say, His disciples came by night and stole Him
away while we were asleep.
14 And if this should come to the governor's ears, we will win him over
and keep you out of trouble.
15 And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and
this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day.
The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is just one of many parables of the kingdom
that tell essentially the same story but in different ways.
So, let's try to understand the proper meaning of the scriptures when spoken as a
parable. If we allow our imagination to run wild in our soulish realm, we will never
understand the parables of Jesus Christ.
Logabe
The parables don't teach God's Truths? Why would God make up such a HORRIBLE story? The rich man begged for mercy. He didn't receive mercy. It was too late for him.
Luke 16:22-28 (NKJV)
22 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
It's quite consistent with the NT.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Luke 16:22-28 (NKJV)
22 The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
It's quite consistent with the NT.
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
On Rev. 20:10 My bible says "where the beast and the false prophet were". The New Oxford Annotated Bible
No actually I didn't miss the point, but was commenting on the conflict of your rebuttal, your point IMO is mute. Just because something is written in a language that you can read does not make it accurate. The Hebrew translations of the new testament are no less accurate than many of the English translations.The English translations are errant as well.
While I am not a JW or an advocate of their bible it seems we have something in common, I disagree with some your interpretations as well, especially concerning unending torment.
As you say, that's your opinion.
What 'interpretations'?
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
No 'interpretation' needed. It's perfectly clear, as is Luke 16.
Similar threads
