Again, look how I used it. Not as an historical source. I used it as a quick reference. An historical source, is going to an actual historical document and citing it, such as citing Josephus in a quotation, as an historical source. So, no, why do you misrepresent me, and attempt to turn the subject away from the real questions that have been posed to you.
Where does the Bible say...
- Thread starter theefaith
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Again, I wasn't using it as an historical source. I used it as quick reference. Citing an historical source is going to an original document, like Pliny and citing that as an historical source. For instance when I cited Pliny here - King James Bible Forums | KJV Only Forums | KJV Baptist Forum | Independent Fundamental Baptist Forum | 1611 KJV Forum • View topic - Anyone invested the time to review Josephus or Tacitus?
I never claimed that when I refer to wikipedia, that they are "historical sources". Wikipedia is never an historical source. They are mere quick references and I use both when trying to get a point across, but never do I refer to wikipedia as an historical source. But I already know what you will say anyway.
This is one of the reasons I left Catholicism. It is unwilling to admit it's own error. It claims infallibility. You cite a blogsite which includes wikipedia sourced material, and without noting that and pass it off as an "historical sources"?
Last edited:
Debunk what? That protestants differed with one another, as the ECF and catholics and 'orthodoxy' and what not do among themselves?
I stated that earlier, in case you did not read what I wrote (which seems to be the case here, as elsewhere). I also made note that though wikipedia cites historical sources, wikipedia itself is not an historical source, which you were caught using, and passing it off as an "historical source", simply because you grabbed anything you could find from the first blogsite you read without checking where it came from and didn't realize. Did you care about the truth, or did you just want information to use?
For instance, when you quoted this (above), passing it off as an historical source, though it is obviously not cited from an historical source, but is parsing historical materials, and placing its own agenda into it. You even highlighted the very word "betrayed". What historical source is given for that statement?
Here is D'Aubigny's accounting:
"... The fanaticism, which had been extinguished in Germany by Luther’s return to Wittenberg, reappeared in full vigor in Switzerland, and threatened the edifice that Zwingle, Haller, and Oecolampadius had built on the Word of God. Thomas Munzer, having been forced to quit Saxony in 1521, had reached the frontiers of Switzerland. Conrad Grebel, whose restless and ardent disposition we have already noticed, had become connected with him, as had also Felix Manz, a canon’s son, and several other Zurichers; and Grebel had immediately endeavoured to gain over Zwingle. In vain had the latter gone farther than Luther; he saw a party springing up which desired to proceed farther still. “Let us form a community to true believers,” said Grebel to him; “for to them alone the promise belongs, and let us found a church in which there shall be no sin.”—” We cannot make a heaven upon earth,” replied Zwingle; “and Christ has taught us that we must let the tares grow up along with the wheat.”
Grebel having failed with the reformer, would have desired to appeal to the people. “The whole community of Zurich,” said he, “ought to have the final decision in matters of faith.” But Zwingle feared the influence these radical enthusiasts might exercise over a large assembly. He thought that, except on extraordinary occasions when the people [419] might be called upon to express their accordance, it was better to confide the interests of religion to a college, which might be considered the chosen representatives of the Church. Accordingly the Council of Two Hundred, which exercised the supreme political authority in Zurich, was also intrusted with the ecclesiastical power, on the express condition that they should conform in all things to the Holy Scriptures. No doubt it would have been better to have thoroughly organized the Church, and called on it to appoint its own representatives, who should be intrusted solely with the religious interests of the people; for a man may be very capable of administering the interests of the State, and yet very unskillful in those of the Church; just as the reverse of this is true also. Nevertheless the inconvenience was not then so serious as it would have been in these days, since the members of the Great Council had frankly entered into the religious movement. But, however this may be, Zwingle, while appealing to the Church, was careful not to make it too prominent, and preferred the representative system to the actual sovereignty of the people. This is what, after three centuries, the states of Europe have been doing in the political world for the last fifty years.
Being rejected by Zwingle, Grebel turned to another quarter. ..." - History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, Volume 3, Book 11, Chapter 10, 3-5 paragraphs.
Grebel was a radical and since he couldn't convince the lead Reformer in Zurich, he tried to grab for power through the people. Zwingli wasn't having any of it.Grebel having failed with the reformer, would have desired to appeal to the people. “The whole community of Zurich,” said he, “ought to have the final decision in matters of faith.” But Zwingle feared the influence these radical enthusiasts might exercise over a large assembly. He thought that, except on extraordinary occasions when the people [419] might be called upon to express their accordance, it was better to confide the interests of religion to a college, which might be considered the chosen representatives of the Church. Accordingly the Council of Two Hundred, which exercised the supreme political authority in Zurich, was also intrusted with the ecclesiastical power, on the express condition that they should conform in all things to the Holy Scriptures. No doubt it would have been better to have thoroughly organized the Church, and called on it to appoint its own representatives, who should be intrusted solely with the religious interests of the people; for a man may be very capable of administering the interests of the State, and yet very unskillful in those of the Church; just as the reverse of this is true also. Nevertheless the inconvenience was not then so serious as it would have been in these days, since the members of the Great Council had frankly entered into the religious movement. But, however this may be, Zwingle, while appealing to the Church, was careful not to make it too prominent, and preferred the representative system to the actual sovereignty of the people. This is what, after three centuries, the states of Europe have been doing in the political world for the last fifty years.
Being rejected by Zwingle, Grebel turned to another quarter. ..." - History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, Volume 3, Book 11, Chapter 10, 3-5 paragraphs.
"... A yet darker crime stains the attempt to uphold the Roman Catholic cause in Geneva. The sword of the duke had failed: so had the excommunication [272] of the bishop, although backed by that of the Pope. Other means must be thought of. A plot was laid to cut off Farel, Viret, and Froment, all three at once, by poison. The circumstance that they lodged together in the same house, that of Claude Bernard, an intelligent and zealous friend of the Gospel, favored the design. A woman, a native of Bresse, was suborned to leave Lyons, on pretense of religion, and come to Geneva. She entered the service of Bernard, with whom the preachers lived. She began, it is said, by poisoning her mistress. A few days thereafter she mixed poison with the soup which had been prepared for the ministers' dinner. Happily only one of them partook of the broth. Farel was indisposed, and did not dine that day, Froment made his repast on some other dish, and Viret alone ate of the poisoned food. He was immediately seized with illness, and was at the point of death. He recovered, but the debilitating effects of the poison remained with him to the end of his days. The wretched woman confessed the crime, but accused a canon and a priest of having instigated her to it. The two ecclesiastics were permitted to clear themselves by oath, but the woman was condemned to death on the 14th April, and executed. 7
This wickedness, which was meant to extinguish the movement, was closely connected with its final triumph. ...
It is a doctrine of the Church of Rome that infants dying unbaptised are consigned to limbo, a sort of faubourg of hell. To redeem such wretched babes from so dreary an abode, what would not their unhappy mothers be willing to give! But was such a thing possible? Outside the gates stood the Church of Our Lady of Grace. To this Virgin was ascribed, among other marvellous prerogatives, the power of resuscitating infants for so long as would suffice for their receiving the Sacrament. The corpse was brought to the statue of Our Lady, and being laid at its feet, its head would be seen to move, or a feather placed on its mouth would be blown away. On this the monks, to whom an offering had previously been made, would shout out, "A miracle! a miracle!" and ring the great bell of the church, and salt, chrism, and holy water would instantly be brought and the child baptised. The Council ordered an investigation into the miracle, and the verdict returned was the plain one, that it was "a trick of the priests." 12 The syndics forbade all such miracles in time to come.
There came yet another edifying discovery. It was an immemorial belief at Geneva that the bodies of St. Nazaire, St. Celsus, and St. Pantaleon reposed beneath the high altar of St. Gervais. Indeed, the fact could not be doubted, for had not the worthy saints been heard singing and talking together on Christmas Eve and similar occasions? But in an evil hour for this belief the altar was overturned, and the too curious eyes of Protestants peered beneath its foundation-stones. They found not Nazaire and his two venerable companions; they saw, instead, a curious mechanism in the rock, not unlike the pipes of an organ, with several vessels of water, so placed that their contents could be forced through the narrow tubes, making a hollow sound, not unlike the voices of men singing or conversing in the bowels of the earth. The Genevans were hardly in circumstances to make merry; nevertheless, the idea that the saints should amuse themselves below ground by playing upon musical glasses seemed so very odd, that it raised a laugh among the citizens, in which, however, the monks did not join. 13
This little town on the shores of the Leman had the distinction of possessing the brain of St. Peter, which lay usually upon the high altar. It was examined and pronounced to be a piece of pumice-stone. Again the monks looked grave, while smiles mantled every face around them. The spiritual treasury of the little town was further enriched with the arm of St. Anthony. The living arm had done valorous deeds, but the dead arm seemed to possess even greater power; but, alas! for the relic and for those who had kissed and worshipped it, and especially those who had profited so largely by the homage paid it, it was found, when taken from its shrine, to be not a human arm at all, but part of a stag. Again there were curling lips and mocking eyes. 14 Nor did this exhaust the list of discoveries.
Curious little creatures, with livid points of fire glowing on their bodies, would be seen moving about, at "dewy eve," in the churchyards or in the cathedral aisles. What could they be? These, said the priests, are souls from purgatory. They have been permitted to revisit "the pale glimpses of the moon" to excite in their behalf the compassion of the living. Hasten with your alms, that your mothers, fathers, husbands may not have to return to the torments from which they have just made their escape. The appearance of these mysterious creatures was the unfailing signal of another golden shower which was about to descend on the priests. But, said the Genevans, before bestowing more masses, let us look a little more closely at these visitors. We never saw anything that more nearly resembled crabs with candles attached to them than these souls from purgatory. Ah, yes! the purgatory from which they have come, we shrewdly suspect, is not the blazing furnace below the earth, but the cool lake beside the city; we shall restore them to their former abode, said they, casting them into the water. There came no more souls with flambeaux to solicit the charity of the Genevans. 15 ..." - History of Protestantism, Volume 2, Book 14, Chapter 8.
7. Ruchat, tom. 3, pp. 346, 347. Roset Chron., bk. 3, chap. 31. Gaberel, Hist. Eglise de Geneve, vol. 1, pp. 125-128; Geneve, 1853.
12. Ruchat, tom. 3, pp. 355, 356, Roset, Chron., 3, 35.
13. Ruchat, tom. 3, pp. 375, 376. Roset, Chron., bk. 3, chap. 50. Spanheim, pp. 25, 26.
14. Ruchat, tom. 3, p. 375. - "Cervi veretrum, pro Antonii brachio repertum est. O sacrum non ridicuhm modo, sed detestabile et vere pudendum!" (Spanheim, pp. 24, 25.)
15 . Ruchat, tom. 3, pp. 378, 379. Gabere1, 1. 128-131.
This wickedness, which was meant to extinguish the movement, was closely connected with its final triumph. ...
It is a doctrine of the Church of Rome that infants dying unbaptised are consigned to limbo, a sort of faubourg of hell. To redeem such wretched babes from so dreary an abode, what would not their unhappy mothers be willing to give! But was such a thing possible? Outside the gates stood the Church of Our Lady of Grace. To this Virgin was ascribed, among other marvellous prerogatives, the power of resuscitating infants for so long as would suffice for their receiving the Sacrament. The corpse was brought to the statue of Our Lady, and being laid at its feet, its head would be seen to move, or a feather placed on its mouth would be blown away. On this the monks, to whom an offering had previously been made, would shout out, "A miracle! a miracle!" and ring the great bell of the church, and salt, chrism, and holy water would instantly be brought and the child baptised. The Council ordered an investigation into the miracle, and the verdict returned was the plain one, that it was "a trick of the priests." 12 The syndics forbade all such miracles in time to come.
There came yet another edifying discovery. It was an immemorial belief at Geneva that the bodies of St. Nazaire, St. Celsus, and St. Pantaleon reposed beneath the high altar of St. Gervais. Indeed, the fact could not be doubted, for had not the worthy saints been heard singing and talking together on Christmas Eve and similar occasions? But in an evil hour for this belief the altar was overturned, and the too curious eyes of Protestants peered beneath its foundation-stones. They found not Nazaire and his two venerable companions; they saw, instead, a curious mechanism in the rock, not unlike the pipes of an organ, with several vessels of water, so placed that their contents could be forced through the narrow tubes, making a hollow sound, not unlike the voices of men singing or conversing in the bowels of the earth. The Genevans were hardly in circumstances to make merry; nevertheless, the idea that the saints should amuse themselves below ground by playing upon musical glasses seemed so very odd, that it raised a laugh among the citizens, in which, however, the monks did not join. 13
This little town on the shores of the Leman had the distinction of possessing the brain of St. Peter, which lay usually upon the high altar. It was examined and pronounced to be a piece of pumice-stone. Again the monks looked grave, while smiles mantled every face around them. The spiritual treasury of the little town was further enriched with the arm of St. Anthony. The living arm had done valorous deeds, but the dead arm seemed to possess even greater power; but, alas! for the relic and for those who had kissed and worshipped it, and especially those who had profited so largely by the homage paid it, it was found, when taken from its shrine, to be not a human arm at all, but part of a stag. Again there were curling lips and mocking eyes. 14 Nor did this exhaust the list of discoveries.
Curious little creatures, with livid points of fire glowing on their bodies, would be seen moving about, at "dewy eve," in the churchyards or in the cathedral aisles. What could they be? These, said the priests, are souls from purgatory. They have been permitted to revisit "the pale glimpses of the moon" to excite in their behalf the compassion of the living. Hasten with your alms, that your mothers, fathers, husbands may not have to return to the torments from which they have just made their escape. The appearance of these mysterious creatures was the unfailing signal of another golden shower which was about to descend on the priests. But, said the Genevans, before bestowing more masses, let us look a little more closely at these visitors. We never saw anything that more nearly resembled crabs with candles attached to them than these souls from purgatory. Ah, yes! the purgatory from which they have come, we shrewdly suspect, is not the blazing furnace below the earth, but the cool lake beside the city; we shall restore them to their former abode, said they, casting them into the water. There came no more souls with flambeaux to solicit the charity of the Genevans. 15 ..." - History of Protestantism, Volume 2, Book 14, Chapter 8.
7. Ruchat, tom. 3, pp. 346, 347. Roset Chron., bk. 3, chap. 31. Gaberel, Hist. Eglise de Geneve, vol. 1, pp. 125-128; Geneve, 1853.
12. Ruchat, tom. 3, pp. 355, 356, Roset, Chron., 3, 35.
13. Ruchat, tom. 3, pp. 375, 376. Roset, Chron., bk. 3, chap. 50. Spanheim, pp. 25, 26.
14. Ruchat, tom. 3, p. 375. - "Cervi veretrum, pro Antonii brachio repertum est. O sacrum non ridicuhm modo, sed detestabile et vere pudendum!" (Spanheim, pp. 24, 25.)
15 . Ruchat, tom. 3, pp. 378, 379. Gabere1, 1. 128-131.
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,466
- 1,707
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,466
- 1,707
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Ok...Ok stop back peddling....I don't want you to fall down and hurt yourself.
You have attacked the alleged source but never proven me wrong in what I have written. Soooooooo when are you going to debunk what I have written????
Patient Mary
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,466
- 1,707
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
And still another attack but no answer.......Wait a minute....I guess your attacks are answers????
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,466
- 1,707
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Thanks ReChoired.
Sooooooo Back to my original point that started all this.
There were the Reformers who disagreed with The Church. They then started their own churches
Then there were men who disagreed with the Reformers which we call reformers of the reformers. Some of them started their own churches.
Then there were men who disagreed with the reformers of the reformers and they reformed their teaching, starting their own churches etc etc for 2,000 years.
What you artfully dodged (did not quote) in your above quote from your history book was anything that supports my original point.
SOOOOOOO Please allow me to finish that last line of your post to put it in context. What other quarter did Grebel turn to after being rejected by Zwingle???
"Rubli, formerly pastor at Basle, Brodtlein, pastor at Zollikon, and Louis Herzer, received him with eagerness. They resolved to form an independent congregation in the midst of the great congregation, a Church within the Church."
Sooooo THANK YOU for providing me a historical source that supports what I have been saying all along.
Mary
Christ who is God and the rock and the truth makes Peter the rock and builds His church on Peter the apostles and their successors Matt 16:18 eph 2:20 Jn 20:21-23
only Jesus Christ has authority to found a church, His body, the kingdom of God on earth and not any man!
The true church founded by Christ must be one: holy: catholic: and apostolic
only one church can meet all these requirements
only one church can meet all these requirements
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Also, what the CC don't realize is that the word "catholic" means "universal."
To God Be The Glory
You can misinterpret Scripture if you like because of your church doctrines. I just don't wish for you to fall under Matthew 7:22-23.
To God Be The Glory
Four Marks of the True Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter, the apostles, and their successors!
One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!
The church is One:
Mt 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 17:17-23
that they may be one as we are one.
Romans 12:5
so we, who are many, are one body in Christ.
Rom 15:6
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you... that there be no dissensions among you, but that
you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13
by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. 1 Corinthians 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
Eph 1:10
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Colossians 3:15
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were
called in the one body.
Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Philippians 2:2
be of same the mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of
one mind.
The church is Holy:
The church is Holy because Her founder is God, and Holy is His name.
She is the spotless bride of Christ.
1 Timothy 3:15
know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Colossians 1:18
And he [Jesus] is the head of the body, the church.
1 Peter 2:9-10
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people
belonging to God... Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God.
Ephesians 2:19-22
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
The church is Catholic: (universal)
Jn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jn 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Matt 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Matt 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Matt 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Matt 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.
Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Jn 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jn 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Jn 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
Jn 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Jn 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Jn 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world...
Jn 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world
Jn 16:12-13
I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them
now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
2 cor 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us (the whole world) to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
World = Universal = Catholic
The church is Apostolic:
Matthew 16:18-10
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Luke 22:28-30
You [the apostles] are those who have continued with me in my trials; and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
John 15:16
You [the apostles] did not choose me, but I [Jesus] chose you and appointed
you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide...
Matthew 28:16,18-20
Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee... And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore
and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.
John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them [the apostles] again, Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.
Ephesians 2:19-20
... but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.
Acts 1:
Matthias replaces Judas who had the ministry of apostle.
Heb 3:11 Acts 1:
Jesus is an apostle, the apostles are already in succession to Him, they in turn would have successors.
Similar threads
