Where does the Pope get his authority?

[Marymog]

It’s very simple really.....E.G.White is not my “founders”, nor is any human the dictator of my beliefs.
Scripture tells the truth......humans are not reliable sources of truth unless there is careful fact checking.

Lol...Hold on!!! HOLD ON!!!

Sooooo no human dictated your beliefs? Do you worship Him on Sunday like the NT Christians did and %99.9999 of Christians currently do?

Curious Mary

 

[Aunty Jane]

You keep laughing @Marymog……it’s who is laughing at you that counts in the big scheme of things….you keep right on justifying the beliefs of your church, as we will all stand before the same judge. He will tell us all whether we got it right or not.…no one will be laughing then.

I don’t think we will have long to wait, judging by the state of the world and the lid that is getting lifted on the inner workings of everything in this devil-controlled system of things…..well due for destruction.
Armageddon is real….bring it on…..we’re ready.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

It’s very simple really.....E.G.White is not my “founders”, nor is any human the dictator of my beliefs.
Scripture tells the truth......humans are not reliable sources of truth unless there is careful fact checking.

I apologize. I thought you were SDA. You are JW. My bad.

“The obelisk was purified”??? Do you never ask what it was doing there in the first place? And what place any pagan edifice has in the worship of the true God?....the one who forbade his people to make an image of anything.....

That one and only pagan edifice stood in the presence of Christian martyrs. That means something to us. It means nothing to you.

You will find obelisks in all sorts of places, but their origin is in false worship and I believe that they are offensive to God because of that.

Agreed. The Obelisk in St. Peter's Square is not worshipped. It's a massive symbol of the defeat of paganism that once ruled a powerful empire. The blood of the martyrs is the seedbed of the Church. That's the point of the obelisk. All you can see is a stone pillar.

 

[Augustin56]

People like @Aunty Jane believes just because we honor, respect and love the mother of God, we are worshiping her. Didn't Jesus and God honor, love and respect Mary also? Sounds like we are in good company when we honor, love and respect a woman who was (is) full of grace and blessed among women!

Mary

Good point. If Jesus didn't honor His mother, He broke the Commandment to "Honor thy Father and Mother"

 

[Aunty Jane]

I apologize. I thought you were SDA. You are JW. My bad.

No, we have some similar beliefs, but some serious differences….as we expect because the truth argues with false teachings…..things that are not backed up in God’s word. In the end only the “wheat” will be spared at the judgment….they have no similarity with the “weeds” at all.

The position that Mary holds is reflected in the ancient goddess worship of the nations….her titles are all borrowed from the pagan mother goddesses….none of them are in the Bible because Mary was never said to be “Queen of Heaven“ or “Our Lady” of anything. In fact she is hardly mentioned in Scripture…..and only as “the mother of Jesus”. She also had other children, denied because some of the pagan goddesses were perpetual virgins. Mary seems to have embodied all of them.

That one and only pagan edifice stood in the presence of Christian martyrs. That means something to us. It means nothing to you.

The very fact that it is pagan means it has no place in Christianity. God tolerated no images of anything that involved worship unless it was expressly commanded by him. Who commanded that this edifice be erected?
Not God….and it does not explain why there is a Babylonian sun wheel, where it sits in the middle?

Relic worship is also a problem with the RCC….how would anyone know if these things are authentic? Like the shroud of Turin…..the Bible says that Jesus’ body was wrapped in linen cloths strips as was customary at the time, and his head was covered by a separate cloth. That shroud is a fake.

Agreed. The Obelisk in St. Peter's Square is not worshipped. It's a massive symbol of the defeat of paganism that once ruled a powerful empire. The blood of the martyrs is the seedbed of the Church. That's the point of the obelisk. All you can see is a stone pillar.

This one example is lost in the multitude of other adoptions that “the church” allowed itself to embrace. But giving pagan things a “Christian” label changes nothing…..it does not “Christianize” the paganism, but “paganizes the Christianity.

Pure worship is not tainted by the trappings and practices of paganism….the was poisoned….a long time ago.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Good point. If Jesus didn't honor His mother, He broke the Commandment to "Honor thy Father and Mother"

Really? I’m sure Jesus didn’t have images made of his mother so that he could venerate her when she was not present…..would it have had sun busts coming out of her head? Halos are also an adoption from pagan sun worship…..we are left to wonder….did the Catholic church do a single thing that was “Christian”? Or was she too absorbed in roping the pagans in without regeneration by faith? It’s not about the numbers or how many people you can scare half to death with hellfire so that they get sprinkled with water…..

Honoring your father and mother means respecting them, and taking care of them in old age as they cared for you in your infancy and into adulthood……I’m also sure that he had great respect for his mother as did the apostles….but she certainly does not have the attention in Scripture that she does in your church. There is more focus on Mary than there is on Jesus……not sure Jehovah even gets a mention.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

No, we have some similar beliefs, but some serious differences….as we expect because the truth argues with false teachings…..things that are not backed up in God’s word. In the end only the “wheat” will be spared at the judgment….they have no similarity with the “weeds” at all.

The position that Mary holds is reflected in the ancient goddess worship of the nations….her titles are all borrowed from the pagan mother goddesses….none of them are in the Bible because Mary was never said to be “Queen of Heaven“ or “Our Lady” of anything. In fact she is hardly mentioned in Scripture…..and only as “the mother of Jesus”. She also had other children, denied because some of the pagan goddesses were perpetual virgins. Mary seems to have embodied all of them.

The very fact that it is pagan means it has no place in Christianity. God tolerated no images of anything that involved worship unless it was expressly commanded by him. Who commanded that this edifice be erected?
Not God….and it does not explain why there is a Babylonian sun wheel, where it sits in the middle?

Relic worship is also a problem with the RCC….how would anyone know if these things are authentic? Like the shroud of Turin…..the Bible says that Jesus’ body was wrapped in linen cloths strips as was customary at the time, and his head was covered by a separate cloth. That shroud is a fake.

This one example is lost in the multitude of other adoptions that “the church” allowed itself to embrace. But giving pagan things a “Christian” label changes nothing…..it does not “Christianize” the paganism, but “paganizes the Christianity.

Pure worship is not tainted by the trappings and practices of paganism….the was poisoned….a long time ago.

Whenever one encounters a proposed example of pagan influence, one should demand that its existence be properly documented from primary sources or through reliable, scholarly secondary sources. After receiving documentation supporting the claim of a pagan parallel, (that is never done in the first place) one should ask a number of questions:

Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not.​

The claim of a parallel may be erroneous, especially when the documentation provided is based on an old or undisclosed source. For example: “The Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known” (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic). This is not true. The Egyptians had an Ennead—a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were simply three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong.

Is the parallel dependent or independent?​

Even if there is a pagan parallel, that does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views. For example, Fundamentalists have made much of the fact that Catholic art includes Madonna and Child images and that non-Christian art, all over the world, also frequently includes mother and child images. There is nothing sinister in this.

The fact is that, in every culture, there are mothers who hold their children! Sometimes this gets represented in art, including religious art, and it especially is used when a work of art is being done to show the motherhood of an individual. Mother-with-child images do not need to be explained by a theory of diffusion from a common, pagan religious source (such as Hislop’s suggestion that such images stem from representations of Semiramis holding Tammuz). One need look no further than the fact that mothers holding children is a universal feature of human experience and a convenient way for artists to represent motherhood.

Is the parallel antecedent or consequent?​

Even if there is a pagan parallel that is causally related to a non-pagan counterpart, this does not establish which gave rise to the other. It may be that the pagan parallel is a late borrowing from a non-pagan source. Frequently, the pagan sources we have are so late that they have been shaped in reaction to Jewish and Christian ideas.

Sometimes it is possible to tell that pagans have been borrowing from non-pagans. Other times, it cannot be discerned who is borrowing from whom (or, indeed, if anyone is borrowing from anyone). For example: The ideas expressed in the Norse Elder Edda about the end and regeneration of the world were probably influenced by the teachings of Christians with whom the Norse had been in contact for centuries (H. A. Guerber, The Norsemen, 339f).

Is the parallel treated positively, neutrally, or negatively?​

Even if there is a pagan parallel to a non-pagan counterpart, that does not mean that the item or concept was enthusiastically or uncritically accepted by non-pagans. One must ask how they regarded it. Did they regard it as something positive, neutral, or negative?

For example: Circumcision and the symbol of the cross might be termed “neutral” Jewish and Christian counterparts to pagan parallels. It is quite likely that the early Hebrews first encountered the idea of circumcision among neighboring non-Jewish peoples, but that does not mean they regarded it as a religiously good thing for non-Jews to do. Circumcision was regarded as a religiously good thing only for Jews because for them it symbolized a special covenant with the one true God (Gen. 17). The Hebrew scriptures are silent in a religious appraisal of non-Jewish circumcision.

Similarly, the early Christians who adopted the cross as a symbol did not do so because it was a pagan religious symbol (the pagan cultures which use it as a symbol, notably in East Asia and the Americas, had no influence on the early Christians). The cross was used as a Christian symbol because Christ died on a cross. Christians did not adopt it because it was a pagan symbol they liked and wanted to copy.

Historical truth prevails​

Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism “pagan” fail. To make a charge of paganism stick,

• one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world.
• One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item.

In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices.

Is Catholicism Pagan?

Catholic beliefs are not "borrowed" from earlier pagan cults. We clear away the confusion and give you some helpful hints on how to respond to this charge.

www.catholic.com

 

[Augustin56]

Really? I’m sure Jesus didn’t have images made of his mother so that he could venerate her when she was not present…..would it have had sun busts coming out of her head? Halos are also an adoption from pagan sun worship…..we are left to wonder….did the Catholic church do a single thing that was “Christian”? Or was she too absorbed in roping the pagans in without regeneration by faith? It’s not about the numbers or how many people you can scare half to death with hellfire so that they get sprinkled with water…..

Honoring your father and mother means respecting them, and taking care of them in old age as they cared for you in your infancy and into adulthood……I’m also sure that he had great respect for his mother as did the apostles….but she certainly does not have the attention in Scripture that she does in your church. There is more focus on Mary than there is on Jesus……not sure Jehovah even gets a mention.

LOL Jesus didn't need images. She was ALIVE when He walked the earth.

You're going to be awfully shocked when you die, I suspect. You have such certitude in untruth.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ultimately, all attempts to prove Catholicism “pagan” fail. To make a charge of paganism stick,

In whose opinion? Only Catholics fail to prove that there is NO connection. Others can see it plainly because it sticks out like a sore thumb…..no Catholic beliefs and practices are from the Bible, no matter how you twist Scripture. It’s what you do, not just what you say…..

• one must be able to show more than a similarity between something in the Church and something in the non-Christian world.

The truth will reveal itself to those who can see and acknowledge the error. If you don’t see the error then go your way and do whatever it is that you think God approves of. He will let us all know whether we got it right, or if we were just making excuses. When Israel did what the Catholic Church has done, he punished them. The precedent is set.

• One must be able to demonstrate a legitimate connection between the two, showing clearly that one is a result of the other, and that there is something wrong with the non-Christian item.

If there is one truth, then there is no need to try to justify what the Bible forbids.

Genuine first century Christianity never imitated the pagans…..because the first Christians were all Jewish, and God forbade his people to do that….(Deut 18:9-12) It was the pagans who imitated the Christians in order to bring them over to the new religion of the Roman state…..a blending of weakened apostate Christianity and pagan Roman sun worship…..old Roman beliefs and practices given a thin veneer of “Christian” appearance, but renaming pagan festivals and adopting practices that were not found in the Christian Scriptures was an astute politician’s attempt to consolidate his divided empire…a one religion that fits all.

The power given to the church leaders corrupted them absolutely….for centuries.

In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices.

No one has been able to prove anything to those who don’t want to know about it.
I can tell you, in my own experience that many Catholic people are appalled when they study the Bible for themselves and see that none of what they have been led to believe, originates in Scripture. The whole foundation is built on lies and perpetuated by the planned ignorance of the majority of those who call themselves “Catholic”. They are taught to be mindless performers of rituals, rather than educated servants of the true God.

Those who are educated become just like their teachers As Jesus said in Luke 6:39-40…
”….”A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Both will fall into a pit, will they not? 40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly instructed will be like his teacher.”
This works both ways….perfectly instructed in truth…or lies….they will teach what they themselves have been taught….the blind leading the blind have a big fall awaiting them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

LOL Jesus didn't need images. She was ALIVE when He walked the earth.

Are you telling me that if Mary had preceded Jesus in death that he would have made an image of her and venerated that image as “the mother of God”?
Mary knew her place because there is so little said about this humble woman in Scripture.…the one called “the mother of Jesus”..…but never “the mother of God”…..that is blasphemy.

You're going to be awfully shocked when you die, I suspect. You have such certitude in untruth.

Since there is no conscious existence after death, no one is shocked one way or another. Death is likened to “sleep” in the Bible.
When Jesus raised his friend Lazarus, where did he say he was? “Sleeping”. (John 11:11-14)
Jesus taught about resurrection, which was a return or restoration of life, not a continuation of it in either heaven or hell. Jesus was Jewish…not Catholic. For a Jew, “hell” was the grave. “Gehenna” was eternal death. Two different words spoken to Jews who knew exactly what they meant…..the very opposite to what is taught in Catholicism and indeed all of Christendom.

Many people are in for a shock, but not after death…before that happens they will know why God’s appointed judge has rejected them as those he “never knew”. (Matt 7:21-23) He said “few” are on the “cramped and narrow road” to life….(Matt 7:13-14) Do you know why?
Do you put your confidence in numbers?
The majority view has never been right with God…the devil has the majority….God has the hated but faithful “few”. (John 15:18-21) The ones that true heretics point their fingers at screaming “heretic!”...just as it was in the first century. History is repeating right under your collective noses, but you cannot see it. (2 Cor 4:4)

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

No one has been able to prove anything to those who don’t want to know about it.

Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics; by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics; and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.

The nineteenth century witnessed a flowering of this “pagan influence fallacy.” Publications such as The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (the classic English text charging the Catholic Church with paganism) paved the way for generations of antagonism toward the Church. During this time, entire new sects were created (Seventh-day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses)—all considering traditional Catholicism and Protestantism as polluted by paganism. This era also saw atheistic “freethinkers” such as Robert Ingersoll writing books attacking Christianity and Judaism as pagan.

It's more than a fallacy, it's a core belief for some. As demonstrated with reason and logic; your reply fails to address any of the 4 questions in post 1167. I think most readers find your rants uncharitable.

 

[Brakelite]

Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient

The principle reason for opposing Catholicism is its teachings regarding the nature of God, and the gospel of salvation.
The pagan connections, its history of persecution, the ritualism, and relics, statuary and icon reverence are but incidental evidence thereof,and the inevitable fruits of the falsehood of its theology.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The nineteenth century witnessed a flowering of this “pagan influence fallacy.” Publications such as The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop (the classic English text charging the Catholic Church with paganism) paved the way for generations of antagonism toward the Church. During this time, entire new sects were created (Seventh-day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses)—all considering traditional Catholicism and Protestantism as polluted by paganism. This era also saw atheistic “freethinkers” such as Robert Ingersoll writing books attacking Christianity and Judaism as pagan.

You honestly believe that one man caused your church all this angst? You don’t think for a moment that the fact that your doctrines are completely missing from the Bible and your practices are not found practiced by the first Christians either?……You don’t think people notice that you have a “Christianity” all your own, that finds no foundation in the teachings of Jesus Christ in any manner, shape or form….? Nothing to do with that? Right?

Only Catholic people indoctrinated with Catholic teaching would ever consider them “Christian”….
If I can find those beliefs and practices in pagan religions, and see them for myself, then my first assumption is that the church copied the pagans because the pagans would never copy the teachings of Jesus Christ….satan wouldn’t let them….his aim is to steer people away from God.

It's more than a fallacy, it's a core belief for some. As demonstrated with reason and logic; your reply fails to address any of the 4 questions in post 1167. I think most readers find your rants uncharitable.

It’s not a fallacy at all, but plainly observable to all who have eyes to see…..and the reasons why Martin Luther rebelled at the abominable practices of your church leaders…..he wanted them to clean up their act….but they never did, so what choice did sincere people have but to flee from the clutches of an incorrigible church that kept them in ignorance and gave them only lies, guilt and grief for centuries?

The four questions in post #1167 are a classic example of someone trying to justify the unjustifiable.
Try justifying your beliefs and practices to God….After all, it is his laws that your church has been breaking for the whole of its existence.

I think Jesus‘ rants were probably viewed by the Pharisees as “uncharitable”….read Matt ch 23 and see why. Exposing the frauds for what they were and always had been, was his mission from God...the one they were offending the most. Are we to do less?

Please tell me where we would find Jesus’ teachings in the following pictures….

In grand cathedrals complete with statues of those idolized by your church?
Your leader and his assistants all regaled in robes that honor no one but the ones wearing them….
and the hats…please tell us where the head gear came from…
You think that Mother goddess worship was not picked up by the church from pagan sources?
Do you not have eyes to see? Mary’s depiction with Jesus mirrors Isis with the infant Horus perfectly.


It’s all there in plain sight……so we can only ask why any church that claims to serve the son of God on earth would do things to offend him this way?


Why is there a Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter’s Square….complete with an obelisk that was used in pagan Roman sun worship? The claim is that an insignificant cross has been placed on top of this enormous edifice to supposedly signify the conquest of paganism, when it is plain for all to see that the paganism conquered the Catholic Church in every way possible. (Rev 18:4-5)

It has a lot to answer for….and it will. I honestly can’t see how God will accept your excuses….the departure from Christ’s teachings is almost absolute….but you couldn’t know this if you were raised in the RCC.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

You honestly believe that one man caused your church all this angst?

No. As I said, the 19th century saw a rise in the pagan influence fallacy with false books and the founding of made-in-America Bible groups such as the JW's and the SDA and their offshoots. In a sense, they are both Hislopites, and this forum is flooded with it.

You don’t think for a moment that the fact that your doctrines are completely missing from the Bible and your practices are not found practiced by the first Christians either?…

That's your opinion. The first Christians buried their dead in the catacombs. Archeological evidence reveals that they were Catholic in practice and belief.

You don’t think people notice that you have a “Christianity” all your own, that finds no foundation in the teachings of Jesus Christ in any manner, shape or form….? Nothing to do with that? Right?

That's your opinion.

Only Catholic people indoctrinated with Catholic teaching would ever consider them “Christian”….
If I can find those beliefs and practices in pagan religions, and see them for myself, then my first assumption is that the church copied the pagans because the pagans would never copy the teachings of Jesus Christ….satan wouldn’t let them….his aim is to steer people away from God.

The pagan influence fallacy has been exposed, the 4 questions dismantles your false charges as stupid and absurd.

It’s not a fallacy at all, but plainly observable to all who have eyes to see…..and the reasons why Martin Luther rebelled at the abominable practices of your church leaders…..he wanted them to clean up their act….but they never did, so what choice did sincere people have but to flee from the clutches of an incorrigible church that kept them in ignorance and gave them only lies, guilt and grief for centuries?

You appeal the Reformation yet you accuse all Protestantism as daughters of the whore. You make no sense.

The four questions in post #1167 are a classic example of someone trying to justify the unjustifiable.
Try justifying your beliefs and practices to God….After all, it is his laws that your church has been breaking for the whole of its existence.

I'm not trying to justify anything. You just don't like your chronic myth making dismantled.

Is there a parallel? Frequently, there is not.​

Is the parallel dependent or independent?​

Is the parallel antecedent or consequent?​

Is the parallel treated positively, neutrally, or negatively?​

The pagan influence fallacy cannot withstand this level of scrutiny so you reply with historical falsehoods and insults.

I think Jesus‘ rants were probably viewed by the Pharisees as “uncharitable”….read Matt ch 23 and see why. Exposing the frauds for what they were and always had been, was his mission from God...the one they were offending the most. Are we to do less?

Nobody "exposes frauds" by bearing false witness and promoting fallacies. .

Please tell me where we would find Jesus’ teachings in the following pictures….

In grand cathedrals complete with statues of those idolized by your church?

It was illegal to build places of assembly for 3 centuries. Statues are not idolized, you take insults as factual because that's what you have been trained to think.
The BITE Model provides a framework for evaluating the characteristics of a group and determining whether it is healthy or destructive. Dr. Daily applied the BITE Model of Authoritarian Control to assess the SDA and discovered that it met numerous criteria characteristic of an authoritarian organization.

Your leader and his assistants all regaled in robes that honor no one but the ones wearing them….
and the hats…please tell us where the head gear came from…

Vestments have a history of development over centuries. You have no history prior to the 18th century and have little or nothing in common with the early Church. That is evident by your rejection of the writings of the Early Church Fathers, including the Nicene Creed, which you reject.

You think that Mother goddess worship was not picked up by the church from pagan sources?

No. That is an unproven assertion that cannot withstand the 4 questions that have you running.

Do you not have eyes to see? Mary’s depiction with Jesus mirrors Isis with the infant Horus perfectly.

Mothers hold their children?!? Shocking!!! All mothers who hold their children are pagans? That nonsense has already been addressed, it's pure Hislopism.
further reading: Cleaning Up the Horus Manure

View attachment 44891 View attachment 44892 View attachment 44893
It’s all there in plain sight……so we can only ask why any church that claims to serve the son of God on earth would do things to offend him this way?

View attachment 44894 View attachment 44895
Why is there a Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter’s Square….complete with an obelisk that was used in pagan Roman sun worship? The claim is that an insignificant cross has been placed on top of this enormous edifice to supposedly signify the conquest of paganism, when it is plain for all to see that the paganism conquered the Catholic Church in every way possible. (Rev 18:4-5)

It has a lot to answer for….and it will. I honestly can’t see how God will accept your excuses….the departure from Christ’s teachings is almost absolute….but you couldn’t know this if you were raised in the RCC.

The obelisk does not signify pagan worship, although it undoubtedly has pagan origins. Where St. Peter’s now stands once stood a Roman circus erected by the infamous Roman Emperor Caligula. Caligula placed this obelisk, a symbol of ancient Egyptian religion, in this circus. Many Christians were executed in this circus, particularly during the reign of the Emperor Nero, and would’ve seen the obelisk in their dying moments as they looked upward. Christian tradition holds that Peter was one of those martyrs.

In homage to these early Christian martyrs, against whom death could not ultimately prevail (John 11:25), the Church erected St. Peter’s Basilica on the location of the former circus, and placed the obelisk as a reminder of the victory of both the Church in general and early Christians in particular over the pagan Roman Empire.
This is the point where you go blind. All you can see is a stone pillar.

There is further evidence refuting the charge of pagan worship by the Catholic Church. In pagan times, a golden ball symbolizing worship of the sun topped the obelisk. However, the Church long ago replaced the golden ball with a cross, in which is contained a relic of the True Cross. Which, ironically, is a fulfillment of Jeremiah 43:13.

Seventh Day Adventists and the BITE Model​

The BITE Model provides a framework for evaluating the characteristics of a group and determining whether it is healthy or destructive. Dr. Daily applied the BITE Model of Authoritarian Control to assess the SDA and discovered that it met numerous criteria characteristic of an authoritarian organization.

Concerns with The Seventh Day Adventist Church with Dr. Steve Daily

The Seventh Day Adventist Church (SDA) has around 20 million members; many of its practices align with my BITE Model of Authoritarian Control,

freedomofmind.com

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

The principle reason for opposing Catholicism is its teachings regarding the nature of God, and the gospel of salvation.

We are not the ones rejecting authoritive proclamations of the Council of Niceae in 325 A.D. It was the first council on the nature of God. The gospel of salvation is proclaimed at every Mass around the world, if you bother to look. Summarize your gospel of salvation and I'll show where it is proclaimed every day.

The pagan connections, its history of persecution, the ritualism, and relics, statuary and icon reverence are but incidental evidence thereof, and the inevitable fruits of the falsehood of its theology.

An overview of history shows the early Church was Catholic in practice and belief that your theology has nothing in common with. It shows in your rejection of the earliest Christian writings. By demonizing the CC the way you do, it looks like you are trying to elevate your theology by stepping on the necks of Catholics with insulting fallacies. We don't do that to your group.
History of persecution? Too bad you have to dig up dirt that's over 1000 years old, with no historical context, or red-flag some obscure pope that no one cares about. It means nothing in today's world.
Ritualism? Jesus never abolished ritual, He sanctified it. He followed Jewish rituals all His life.
The principle behind the use of relics comes right out of the Bible.

Why Are Relics So Important?​

It is strongly believed that relics can heal the sick, offer protection from harm, death and aliments, as these objects have been given the divine blessings of God, allowing the particular Saint to aid and watch over the faithful masses.

There are several verses in the bible that show the effects that these relics can have, and their significance for God fearing Christians:

(2 Kings 2:14) – Elisha took the cloak that had fallen from Elijah and struck the water with it, and as it divided to the left and right, and he crossed over.
(2 Kings 13:21) – So they threw the man’s body into Elisha’s tomb. When the body touched Elisha’s bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.
(Matthew 9:20-22) – The hem of Jesus’s cloak was able to heal a woman who could not stop bleeding.
(Acts 5:12-15) – People brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats, in the hope that Peter’s shadow may fall on some of them as he passed by.
(Acts 19:11-12) – Handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched Paul were taken to the sick, and used to cure their illnesses, and to drive out the evil spirits.
(Ex. 13:19) – The Israelites took Josephs bones when they departed Egypt, for he said “God will surely come to your aid, and then you must carry my bones up with you from this place.”

Many non-Catholics particularly shy away from the sacramental aspects of Catholicism—and not from the seven sacraments only. What they dislike is the mixing of spirit and matter, the gift of something spiritual—grace—by means of physical things. That, after all, is what the sacraments are.

This tendency to drive a wedge between spirit and matter stems from age-old heresies known as Dualism, Marcionism, and Manichaeism. Marcion in particular taught that the God of the Old Testament was evil in creating matter, but the God of the New Testament is a different and good God, who raises us to the level of spirit. The less one is entrapped by matter, the closer one is to God. Needless to say, this does not fit well with the sacraments—or with the Incarnation!

The sacraments (and, derivatively, sacramentals and relics) don’t compel God to work in a certain way. Their use depends on God, who established their efficacy, so their effects are divine, not natural, in their origin. It is God who sanctions the use of relics; it is not a matter of men “overpowering” God through their own powers or the powers of nature, which is what magic amounts to.

When Jesus healed the blind man in John 9:1-7, did the Lord use magic mud and spittle? Was it actually a magic potion he mixed in the clay, or was it simply that Jesus saw fit to use matter in association with the conferral of his grace? The Lord is no dualist. He made matter, he loves matter, and he had no qualms about becoming matter himself to accomplish our redemption.
from scripturecatholic.com and catholicanswers.com

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

ROMAN CATACOMBS
The catacombs are underground tunnels that were forged out of soft rock. They are long, marrow winding corridors. The dead were buried in the walls on either side. From time to time, going through these corridors, one comes to a wider space like a room. In these rooms the Christians would gather for the sacrifice of the Mass so as to worship free from the pagan's persecutions.

Burial in the catacombs stopped when the barbarians plundered Rome. The popes removed the relics of the saints and martyrs from the catacombs. The catacombs, once abandoned, were gradually forgotten and not discovered again until the end of the sixteenth century. Most famous of the catacombs is that of St. Callistus, where many of the popes were buried after they were martyred for the faith.

HOW THE CATACOMBS BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUE CATHOLIC FAITH TODAY

An authentic Catholic catechism, containing to true Catholic teachings, could be composed from the pictures and inscriptions on the tombs and walls of ancient catacombs of the first three centuries. Pictures, medals, and inscriptions in the catacombs identify the faith of the early Christians with the Catholic faith.

The catacombs prove that the first Christians believed that Jesus Christ is true God and true Man. They also believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the holy Eucharist, the divine institution of the papacy, the dignity of the mother of God, the intercession of the saints, purgatory, prayers for the deceased.

The emblem of the fish, ichthys, was frequently used in the catacombs. It is a symbol of the Lord Jesus, for the Greek word ichthys means fish and its letters are the initials for Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior. When Christians spoke of receiving the fish, they meant to receive Jesus in Holy communion.

Frequently, pictures of our Savior in the catacombs reveal him as the Good Shepherd., carrying the lost sheep on his shoulders. This is the ancient biblical form which reveals the same message as our modern devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. A number of people are sitting around a table on which is bread and fish.

Death and resurrection were often in the minds of the early Christians, as indicated by the pictures of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, Daniel in the lions den, and the raising of Lazarus. Their faith in resurrection and eternal life gave them courage in facing death under persecution. There is also the famous account of Tarsicius being martyred a he took the holy Eucharist, the bread of life, to Christian prisoners.

The eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass was offered in the catacombs on the altars under which rested the bodies of martyrs. Catholic altars even today have altar stones in which the relics of saints and martyrs were placed by bishops when they consecrated the altar stones.

What Are The Roman Catacombs?

The catacombs are underground tunnels that were forged out of soft rock. They are long, marrow winding corridors. The dead were buried in the walls on either side. From time to time, going through these corridors, one comes to a wider space like a room. In these rooms the Christians would gather...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Aunty Jane]

No. As I said, the 19th century saw a rise in the pagan influence fallacy with false books and the founding of made-in-America Bible groups such as the JW's and the SDA and their offshoots. In a sense, they are both Hislopites, and this forum is flooded with it.

Let me just address these few points first…..

”The pagan influence fallacy” was not a fallacy at all, but based on facts…..obvious to those not indoctrinated with Catholic teachings, but opposed by those who could not bear to think that their church was engaged in anti-Christ teachings…..pagan concepts and practices, adopted like lost puppies needing a home. Ignorance led to the power of the church, whose self imposed authority was absolute. To oppose the church was to sign your own death warrant. Where did Jesus ever authorize such a thing?

The first Christians buried their dead in the catacombs. Archeological evidence reveals that they were Catholic in practice and belief.

“Catholic in practice and belief”, yes….”Christian”, no….

A trip to the catacombs is a real eye opener. Here are some observations by those who have made the journey…..

”Even though there are catacombs in many parts of the Mediterranean basin, those in Rome are the best known and also the largest—their overall length is estimated to be several hundred miles. As many as 60 have been identified, all a few miles outside the historic city center along the consular highways that connected Rome with its provinces. . . . .The greatest development took place during the third and fourth centuries; by this time, what passed for the Christian religion had been thoroughly contaminated by pagan teachings and practices. With the so-called conversion of Constantine in 313 C.E., the catacombs became the property of the Church of Rome, and some ultimately assumed colossal proportions. Altogether, the Roman catacombs could have held hundreds of thousands of tombs, if not millions. . . . .Some of those who used these places evidently had a certain knowledge of the Holy Scriptures, as a number of tombs are decorated with Bible scenes. There is no sign, however, of Mary worship or of other themes so common in later “sacred” art. . . . .We also see figures that have no connection with the Bible. “It’s true,” admits the guide. “Many scenes in these and other catacombs are borrowed from pagan art. You can find the Greco-Roman demigod and hero Orpheus; Cupid and Psyche, who represent the soul’s lot in this life and the next; the vine and the grape harvest, a well-known Dionysian symbol of ecstasy in the afterlife. Taken entirely from idolatrous art, according to one Jesuit scholar, Antonio Ferrua. . . . .

As we continue our visit, the influence exerted by unscriptural devotion to the dead becomes ever clearer. Many desired to be buried close to the tomb of someone considered to be a martyr, with the idea that from his position in heavenly bliss, the martyr could intercede, helping the lesser one to obtain the same reward.

Can these be the remains of true Christianity? Hardly. The Scriptures prophesied that shortly after the death of the apostles, a contamination of the doctrines taught by Jesus and his disciples would arise. (2 Thess 2:3, 7) Indeed, the evidence we have seen, of the cult of the dead and of the martyrs and of the idea of an immortal soul, is eloquent testimony, not of faith based on the teachings of Jesus, but rather of the strong pagan influence already present among apostate Roman Christians in the second to the fourth centuries of our Common Era.”

The pagan influence fallacy has been exposed, the 4 questions dismantles your false charges as stupid and absurd.

Sorry, only justified to Catholics…..not the same at all.…the old saying is true…..”a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.“
Nothing is “dismantled” except in the minds of those who refuse to see what is right in front of them.
Excuses will never be accepted by God, though they will be to those who want them to be true.

Nobody "exposes frauds" by bearing false witness and promoting fallacies. .

No one can claim to be “Christian“ unless they are obedient to Christ’s teachings…..your church has no beliefs or practices in common with Christ’s teachings or that of the apostles, which is for them, “bearing false witness and promoting fallacies” of the worst kind.…..and a Bible study will expose their disobedience…..it has for countless numbers who were once kept in spiritual slavery to a church who has perverted every teaching of the one they claim to serve….replacing Christ with Mary, and replacing the Father with the son. Your church invented a god that doesn’t exist in the Bible.

Mary is “the mother of Jesus”…the only title she is ever given in Scripture.

It’s the raw truth….but so many cannot admit it, even when the clear evidence is presented to them.

I do not question your sincerity for one moment…..but I question the source of your faith and the twisted information fed to your members over many centuries, who were kept in deliberate ignorance all that time so that the departures from scriptural truth would never be disclosed. Well they are now, thanks to the Reformation which at the very least, broke the power of the Roman church, and put the word of God back into the hands of the people…..

Was it the solution to Christian truth and unity? NO! But it was the start of separating mankind into the two categories that Christ will confront at the time of judgment that is fast approaching…..all mankind will be in the category in which they have placed themselves….“sheep or goats”…..the “sheep” loving the truth and settling for nothing less….or the “goats” loving the lies and being stuck in their own delusional thinking….(2 Thess 2:7-12)…..all will have declared their chosen allegiance to the judge when he comes. (Matt7:21-23)

For Jesus there is just true religion and false religion….we choose which one appeals to our heart. It’s not always a reliable source. (Jer 17:9-10)

 

[Brakelite]

H

Seventh Day Adventists and the BITE Model​

The BITE Model provides a framework for evaluating the characteristics of a group and determining whether it is healthy or destructive. Dr. Daily applied the BITE Model of Authoritarian Control to assess the SDA and discovered that it met numerous criteria characteristic of an authoritarian organization.

Concerns with The Seventh Day Adventist Church with Dr. Steve Daily

The Seventh Day Adventist Church (SDA) has around 20 million members; many of its practices align with my BITE Model of Authoritarian Control,

freedomofmind.com

I have been an Adventist for 27 years. I came into it on the basis of scripture. Since then I have read and heard many attempts to discredit, tarnish, and prove the advent movement false, and Ellen White a liar and charlatan. But that one above, I haven't seen that before. And it's going on file as a classic. I don't know who Steven Hassan is, the writer, but he seems to have a great gift for story telling and fictional tragicomedy. He would be hilarious, if that were his intention. I know it wasn't. It is in fact quite ludicrous, a gross distortion. Clearly, neither you nor he, have read one word from any of Ellen White's published books or articles. A 17 year old girl with nothing more than a 3rd grade education and ongoing health problems having the guile and wit to manipulate, scheme, orchestrate, and " maintain her unethical behavior, lying, deception, and fraud, stemmed from underlying psychological pathology", is the stuff of movies. And despite all of that, she managed to write over 40 books and thousands of articles and pamphlets, and is on record as the most prolific American female author of all time. And this quote...When these visions proved false, many followers were left destitute, while she and James amassed significant wealth and lived luxuriously", is just simply and plainly false. Oh, let us not forget that according to the article she was also a closet alcoholic. Quite the lady. And despite all that baggage, everything she wrote upheld Jesus. Pointed to Jesus. Exalted Jesus. That article is nothing but a caricature born of a personal prejudice. It's on a par with what you read from atheists about God. Lies, misrepresentation, and slander.

ROMAN CATACOMBS
The catacombs are underground tunnels that were forged out of soft rock. They are long, marrow winding corridors. The dead were buried in the walls on either side. From time to time, going through these corridors, one comes to a wider space like a room. In these rooms the Christians would gather for the sacrifice of the Mass so as to worship free from the pagan's persecutions.

Burial in the catacombs stopped when the barbarians plundered Rome. The popes removed the relics of the saints and martyrs from the catacombs. The catacombs, once abandoned, were gradually forgotten and not discovered again until the end of the sixteenth century. Most famous of the catacombs is that of St. Callistus, where many of the popes were buried after they were martyred for the faith.

HOW THE CATACOMBS BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUE CATHOLIC FAITH TODAY

An authentic Catholic catechism, containing to true Catholic teachings, could be composed from the pictures and inscriptions on the tombs and walls of ancient catacombs of the first three centuries. Pictures, medals, and inscriptions in the catacombs identify the faith of the early Christians with the Catholic faith.

The catacombs prove that the first Christians believed that Jesus Christ is true God and true Man. They also believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the holy Eucharist, the divine institution of the papacy, the dignity of the mother of God, the intercession of the saints, purgatory, prayers for the deceased.

The emblem of the fish, ichthys, was frequently used in the catacombs. It is a symbol of the Lord Jesus, for the Greek word ichthys means fish and its letters are the initials for Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior. When Christians spoke of receiving the fish, they meant to receive Jesus in Holy communion.

Frequently, pictures of our Savior in the catacombs reveal him as the Good Shepherd., carrying the lost sheep on his shoulders. This is the ancient biblical form which reveals the same message as our modern devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. A number of people are sitting around a table on which is bread and fish.

Death and resurrection were often in the minds of the early Christians, as indicated by the pictures of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, Daniel in the lions den, and the raising of Lazarus. Their faith in resurrection and eternal life gave them courage in facing death under persecution. There is also the famous account of Tarsicius being martyred a he took the holy Eucharist, the bread of life, to Christian prisoners.

The eucharistic sacrifice of the Mass was offered in the catacombs on the altars under which rested the bodies of martyrs. Catholic altars even today have altar stones in which the relics of saints and martyrs were placed by bishops when they consecrated the altar stones.

What Are The Roman Catacombs?

The catacombs are underground tunnels that were forged out of soft rock. They are long, marrow winding corridors. The dead were buried in the walls on either side. From time to time, going through these corridors, one comes to a wider space like a room. In these rooms the Christians would gather...

www.christianforums.com

Buried bodies and pictorial epitaphs are a somewhat unreliable foundation to prove the veracity of ones belief system. Scripture, without the superimposing of tradition, is what identifies God's people.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Let me just address these few points first…..

”The pagan influence fallacy” was not a fallacy at all, but based on facts…..obvious to those not indoctrinated with Catholic teachings, but opposed by those who could not bear to think that their church was engaged in anti-Christ teachings…..pagan concepts and practices, adopted like lost puppies needing a home. Ignorance led to the power of the church, whose self imposed authority was absolute. To oppose the church was to sign your own death warrant. Where did Jesus ever authorize such a thing?

"oppose the church was to sign your own death warrant? " Primary and/or secondary documentation please. Or stop lying.

“Catholic in practice and belief”, yes….”Christian”, no….

Catholics were the first Christians.

A trip to the catacombs is a real eye opener. Here are some observations by those who have made the journey…..

”Even though there are catacombs in many parts of the Mediterranean basin, those in Rome are the best known and also the largest—their overall length is estimated to be several hundred miles. As many as 60 have been identified, all a few miles outside the historic city center along the consular highways that connected Rome with its provinces. . . . .The greatest development took place during the third and fourth centuries; by this time, what passed for the Christian religion had been thoroughly contaminated by pagan teachings and practices. With the so-called conversion of Constantine in 313 C.E., the catacombs became the property of the Church of Rome, and some ultimately assumed colossal proportions. Altogether, the Roman catacombs could have held hundreds of thousands of tombs, if not millions. . . . .Some of those who used these places evidently had a certain knowledge of the Holy Scriptures, as a number of tombs are decorated with Bible scenes. There is no sign, however, of Mary worship or of other themes so common in later “sacred” art. . . . .We also see figures that have no connection with the Bible. “It’s true,” admits the guide. “Many scenes in these and other catacombs are borrowed from pagan art. You can find the Greco-Roman demigod and hero Orpheus; Cupid and Psyche, who represent the soul’s lot in this life and the next; the vine and the grape harvest, a well-known Dionysian symbol of ecstasy in the afterlife. Taken entirely from idolatrous art, according to one Jesuit scholar, Antonio Ferrua. . . . .

If one is predisposed to hostility, they can find fault with anything. Pagans were using the catacombs as a cemetery before Christians showed up, so of course you might find some of their art on the walls. But your anti-Catholic observer can't see the forest for the trees. The persecuted Christians who used the catacombs left their mark, and you don't like it.

As we continue our visit, the influence exerted by unscriptural devotion to the dead becomes ever clearer. Many desired to be buried close to the tomb of someone considered to be a martyr, with the idea that from his position in heavenly bliss, the martyr could intercede, helping the lesser one to obtain the same reward.

Can these be the remains of true Christianity? Hardly. The Scriptures prophesied that shortly after the death of the apostles, a contamination of the doctrines taught by Jesus and his disciples would arise. (2 Thess 2:3, 7) Indeed, the evidence we have seen, of the cult of the dead and of the martyrs and of the idea of an immortal soul, is eloquent testimony, not of faith based on the teachings of Jesus, but rather of the strong pagan influence already present among apostate Roman Christians in the second to the fourth centuries of our Common Era.”

Again, you make assertions with no evidence, no scholarly documentation, just stale anti-Catholic flatulence that's 140 years old. If you want to defend false doctrines like soul sleep, start a new thread.

Sorry, only justified to Catholics…..not the same at all.…the old saying is true…..”a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.“
Nothing is “dismantled” except in the minds of those who refuse to see what is right in front of them.
Excuses will never be accepted by God, though they will be to those who want them to be true.

Then lets apply the 4 questions to your absurd myth making, using logic and reason.

No one can claim to be “Christian“ unless they are obedient to Christ’s teachings…..your church has no beliefs or practices in common with Christ’s teachings or that of the apostles, which is for them, “bearing false witness and promoting fallacies” of the worst kind.…..and a Bible study will expose their disobedience…..it has for countless numbers who were once kept in spiritual slavery to a church who has perverted every teaching of the one they claim to serve….replacing Christ with Mary, and replacing the Father with the son. Your church invented a god that doesn’t exist in the Bible.

Your church re-invented Catholicism that doesn't exist.

Mary is “the mother of Jesus”…the only title she is ever given in Scripture.

It’s the raw truth….but so many cannot admit it, even when the clear evidence is presented to them.

I do not question your sincerity for one moment…..but I question the source of your faith and the twisted information fed to your members over many centuries, who were kept in deliberate ignorance all that time so that the departures from scriptural truth would never be disclosed. Well they are now, thanks to the Reformation which at the very least, broke the power of the Roman church, and put the word of God back into the hands of the people…..

Most people back then couldn't read. There you go again, appealing to the reformation that your church has demonized: "Daughters of the Whore".
"put the word of God back into the hands of the people…..is a reformist lie. You need to read the preface of the original KJV that indicated many English translations before 1611.

It is widely believed that, to facilitate the lay reading of Scripture, Luther was first to translate the Bible into German. He was not. The first Bible in the German vernacular was produced in the eight century at the monastery of Monse. By the fifteenth century, there were 36,000 German manuscript bibles in circulation, and a complete printed Bible in the German vernacular appeared in 1529, five years before Luther’s translation was published. In short, the Church made Scripture accessible to laymen long before Luther and the Reformation did.

The Protestant principle of sola scriptura led to the myth that the Catholic Church kept the word of God from the faithful to maintain its authority; the chaining of bibles in medieval churches was seen as evidence of this. It also led to the false claim that Martin Luther’s translation of the Bible into German was the first such vernacular edition; in fact, there had been many vernacular editions preceding Luther’s, including St. Jerome’s Vulgate.

It was the Church that, far from suppressing the Bible, determined the canon of its books and then preserved and authoritatively interpreted the written word of God throughout its history. Catholic monks painstakingly preserved the sacred writings and beautifully illustrated them throughout the medieval period. These priceless manuscripts were chained or locked up in churches not to prevent their use but to protect against theft, thus allowing greater access to them, which was standard practice in both Catholic and Protestant churches until the printing press enabled mass production of bibles.

 

[RedFan]

Catholics were the first Christians.

So were the Greek Orthodox. Both trace their roots to the apostles.