Where is the real abomination? - The context of Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13

[St. SteVen]

We're all familiar with the famous clobber verse used against homosexual relations.

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. - Leviticus 18:22 NRSVue

Or its counterpart a few chapters later.

If a man goes to bed with[a] a male as one goes to bed with a woman,[b]
the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death;
their blood guilt is on themselves. - Leviticus 20:13 NET

Here's the question:
Is it fair to cherry-pick this verse out of context
to use as a weapon against others if we aren't willing to
abide by the the commands and recognize
the inferences in the rest of the chapter?

For starters, Lev. 20:13 says that they should be put to death. ???
The same for a whole host of banned sexual relations listed in these two chapters. ???
Other consequences listed are being "cut off from their people", or even burned with fire.

Two verses earlier we find this exception to polygamy. Do we therefore approve of polygamy in general?

“‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living. - Leviticus 18:18 NIV

What are your thoughts? (I expect some backlash)

/

 

[Bob]

Thank you for your post.

Is this a purely theoretical question, or are you thinking of persuading a same-sex couple that their behavior is wrong?

My opinion: it is never right to quote the Bible as a weapon, or to “clobber“ someone. We should aim at gentle persuasion, reminding ourselves to leave it to God to judge. How could we put a positive approach to this serious prohibition?

A movie that relies on persuasion: ”Tango Shalom.” Plot—a devote Jewish rabbi has a moral dilemma: extricate his family from dire financial straits without going against his beliefs. He consults numerous (and fascinating) opinions from various devote religious people. Their advice is constant: aren’t your beliefs central to your life? (But then one wise person says: ask God for a solution that can solve the dilemma, that can accomplish both within your faith.)

 

[St. SteVen]

Is this a purely theoretical question, or are you thinking of persuading a same-sex couple that their behavior is wrong?

Thanks for joining the discussion.

My point is that the two verses in Leviticus 18 + 20 are cherry-picked out of context
with no intention of acknowledging everything else in those two chapters.

If a person is in favor of calling homosexual relations an abomination, then they
should also be in favor of the death penalty for all the sexual acts listed.

And they should be accepting of polygamy except in the case of
a man marrying his wife's sister as a rival wife.

There are other clobber verses they can use outside the Law of Moses. (Torah)

/

 

[Bob]

Thank you for clarifying.

Certainly in a number of Muslim countries, death is the state law.

In this country, is sodomy even a crime in some states? Certainly not adultery in most. In some cities, petty theft is legal. And infanticide. (We weep.)

Interestingly, polygamy is not legal. (In France, however,….) In the Bible, polygamy always gives rise to severe problems, which would seem to mean God “frowns” upon it. What are the pros and cons?

Peace.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thank you for clarifying.

Certainly in a number of Muslim countries, death is the state law.

In this country, is sodomy even a crime in some states? Certainly not adultery in most. In some cities, petty theft is legal. And infanticide. (We weep.)

Interestingly, polygamy is not legal. (In France, however,….) In the Bible, polygamy always gives rise to severe problems, which would seem to mean God “frowns” upon it. What are the pros and cons?

Peace.

Agree.
I did a topic on this question of polygamy. Link below.
To be clear, I'm not promoting polygamy, but it seems to have been common in ancient times.
There is a lot that we don't understand about sexuality in ancient times.
I think it was common for men to keep female slaves/concubines. Basically, women were property.

Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?

/

 

[Jethro2]

Is it fair to cherry-pick this verse out of context
to use as a weapon against others if we aren't willing to
abide by the the commands and recognize
the inferences in the rest of the chapter?

So don't cherry pick.
Warn of impending judgment and leave it at that.
Have nothing at all ever to share in the works of darkness,
only expose them and keep free of them.

 

[St. SteVen]

So don't cherry pick.
Warn of impending judgment and leave it at that.
Have nothing at all ever to share in the works of darkness,
only expose them and keep free of them.

Will gentiles be judged by the Law of Moses? (given only to Israel)

/

 

[Jack]

I Cor 6 Homosexuals will burn in Hell forever.

 

[St. SteVen]

I Cor 6 Homosexuals will burn in Hell forever.

It says slanderers are in the same boat.
It's not too late to repent.

/

 

[Bob]

Thank you for the continued discussion.

Re Polygamy, let’s try a biological, historical, biblical perspective.

First, other social mammals vs us (made in God’s image)—
—Adult SMs do not bring food, etc. to other injured (needy) adults. But per Love Thy Neighbor, we do.
—Adult SMs live in a “might makes right” world. But per Love Thy Neighbor, we should be gentle and kind (only might FOR right)
—Only a subset of male SMs engender the next generation. But per Love Thy Neighbor, all men (God willing) will have an opportunity to engender the next generation.

Humans historically, in our tribal past. Unless there was a severe shortage of men, the best tribes would have required monogamy. The drift toward polygamy is another example of letting our fallen nature take charge.

What about the Patriarchs Abraham and Jacob? Valid excuses, or simply not trusting God? But King David, etc.: no excuse for his numerous wives.

Jesus, the Apostles, and the Church were right to insist on monogamy. In today’s society there is every reason, God willing, men and women should be able to find life-long spouses.

Peace and blessings.

 

[St. SteVen]

Thank you for the continued discussion.

Re Polygamy, let’s try a biological, historical, biblical perspective.

First, other social mammals vs us (made in God’s image)—
—Adult SMs do not bring food, etc. to other injured (needy) adults. But per Love Thy Neighbor, we do.
—Adult SMs live in a “might makes right” world. But per Love Thy Neighbor, we should be gentle and kind (only might FOR right)
—Only a subset of male SMs engender the next generation. But per Love Thy Neighbor, all men (God willing) will have an opportunity to engender the next generation.

Humans historically, in our tribal past. Unless there was a severe shortage of men, the best tribes would have required monogamy. The drift toward polygamy is another example of letting our fallen nature take charge.

What about the Patriarchs Abraham and Jacob? Valid excuses, or simply not trusting God? But King David, etc.: no excuse for his numerous wives.

Jesus, the Apostles, and the Church were right to insist on monogamy. In today’s society there is every reason, God willing, men and women should be able to find life-long spouses.

Peace and blessings.

That's interesting, thanks.

We probably need to bear in mind that in ancient cultures women were often viewed as property.
Even among the Israelites, I think. Marriages were arranged, sometime for politcal/social/financial reasons.
Slave ownership was common. Even monogamous men kept concubines, or used prostitutes.
A wife for progeny, a concubine for pleasure. As I understand it.

/

 

[quietthinker]

Where is the real abomination? - The context of Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13​

The (real) Abomination is misrepresenting God. This misrepresentation reaches its high point when it attributes to God the attitudes/ activity and practices of Satan clothed in the garment of Piety.

Paul describes this in 2 Corinthians 13-15
'For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness......'

 

[Jack]

It says slanderers are in the same boat.
It's not too late to repent.

I don't know how to repent of believing Jesus.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

 

[Jethro2]

I don't know how to repent of believing Jesus.

May it never be !

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

The world though seems to expect God to forgive abominations ?

English Standard Version
He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.

Berean Standard Bible
Acquitting the guilty and condemning the righteous—both are detestable to the LORD.

King James Bible
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

New King James Version
He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

 

[Jethro2]

Will gentiles be judged ...

Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Romans 14:12
So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

James 3:6
The tongue also is a fire, a world of wickedness among the parts of the body. It pollutes the whole person, sets the course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

 

[St. SteVen]

@Jethro2

St. SteVen said:
Will gentiles be judged ... < SOMETHING IS MISSING HERE !

Will gentiles be judged by the Law of Moses? (given only to Israel)

This is my actual post.

 

[Bob]

That's interesting, thanks.

We probably need to bear in mind that in ancient cultures women were often viewed as property.
Even among the Israelites, I think. Marriages were arranged, sometime for politcal/social/financial reasons.
Slave ownership was common. Even monogamous men kept concubines, or used prostitutes.
A wife for progeny, a concubine for pleasure. As I understand it.

/

Excellent points. Surely it is our fallen nature that induces men to abuse women, and women to seduce men, in order to obtain money, power, . . . .

In fact the worst human societies are far worse than those of social mammals:
—humans enslave (even the king of beasts most go to the animal his harem has killed; they never bring him a morsel).
—humans teach grudges and hatred to the next generation.
—humans murder (most male mammals are content to defeat rivals, even as the struggle for power continues)
—. . . .

Prostitution, Concubinage, Polygamy: Christians said NO.
Slavery: Christians insisted it was wrong (3rd century Rome?) and ended it in the 19th century (mostly).
Women’s Suffrage: 20th century.

Are we making progress? Given the present state of our country, maybe not.

Peace be with you.

 

[St. SteVen]

Are we making progress? Given the present state of our country, maybe not.

Certainly in the area of elevating women above that status of being seen as mere property.
Paul taught us to LOVE our wives. A revolutionary thought at the time.

/

 

[Jethro2]

This is my actual post.

Gentiles all will be judged.
You do not have to like this, nor do you have to agree.

 

[Jethro2]

Are we making progress? Given the present state of our country, maybe not.

Let the righteous be becoming more righteous;
the wicked becoming more wicked.