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Where's Judah's Royal Sceptre Today?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by veteran, May 30, 2011.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Many struggle with understanding the following prophecy from Jacob, especially Jews I'd say. But what does it mean?

    Gen 49:10-12
    10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
    11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
    12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
    (KJV)


    a) "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah... until Shiloh come"

    Shiloh there is put for our Lord Jesus; it's a symbolic name for The Saviour. A "sceptre" means a royal sceptre, like a truncheon, or wand a king is handed at his/her coronation to represent authority of rule. Concerning Israel, that sceptre is about kings of the tribe of Judah of the house of David.

    Who doesn't already know that the royal sceptre rule of one from Judah ended in Jerusalem with king Zedekiah when the king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem and Judah captive to Babylon? That was something like, 2600 years ago (roughly).

    King Zedekiah was of David's house, of Judah. All his son heirs were killed by the king of Babylon. Zedekiah's eyes were poked out and he was carried in chains to Babylon to die there.

    Since that time, there has never since been one of the house of David to sit upon a throne in Jerusalem, not for around 2600 years.

    God promised this to David...

    2 Sam 7:12-17
    12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
    13 He shall build an house for My name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
    14 I will be his father, and he shall be My son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
    15 But My mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
    16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
    17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
    (KJV)

    Did you know that means God promised to establish David's throne upon earth forever? Now that doesn't mean ending it and it only manifesting on earth again once Christ returns. It means that it would continue through all generations... UNTIL Shiloh (Jesus) returns.

    So what happened? Why is David's throne no longer in Jerusalem, not since 2600 years? And that especially since Gen.49:10 says it would continue with Judah until... Shiloh (Jesus) come?

    For God's Word not to be broken per this Promise, David's throne must still be established on earth somewhere, even today. Where is it?

     
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I would have thought unbelievers of the "tares" here on this forum would have jumped on this by now. Guess I'll have to give it more time.

     
  3. TheWarIs1

    TheWarIs1 New Member

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    I believe in Tares and Wheat

    I believe that Judah did in fact rule as promised to David til long after Christ came.
    Zedikiah was the last king of Judah in Israel to rule.
    but Judah was ruling elsewhere at this time and the Kings went on til Christ birth and afterward. 2Ki 19:31

    Where? Ireland.

    In 1581 Vincenzio Galilei (father of the astronomer, Galileo Galilei) wrote that the Irish believed themselves descended from David, King of Israel, and that was why they used a harp as their symbol.
    Galilei comes from the Hebrew word for Galilee

    Ireland is full of symbols of Judah.
    The writings of Irish bards say that King Miles` (Milesius) and his people arrived in Ireland in 1700bc
    That was 300 year before Moses(scriptures were not even written)
    the Kings sons were Eremon, Er and Eber.
    Two of those sons names were names of Judahites

    Eber / Iber is the name from where Hebrew name originated.

    the only Kings to rule from Zedikiahs time are the Irish/Scottish and English Kings which fulfills prophecy to David.
    the Jews do not have Kings nor are they real Hebrews.
    They are fulfilling prophecy of Esau and trying to steal back the inheritance.

    Eze 11:15 Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession.

    Eze 36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.


    Edmoites attacked and plunder Jerusalem and then moved to Hebron when Judah was taken to Babylon according to scripture.



    Judah is not the Jews today
    2nd kings 16 is the first mention of Jews and Judah was ruling Jerusalem at this time.
    Syria was Allies with their kindred in Judah and went and attacked the Jews and drove them from Elath in Edom on the Red Sea.


    Jews in Israel today own most of their old homeland in Edom down to Elath along with Land that was giving to Jacob.,
     
  4. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That is exactly the subject I was talking about when Joshua and others allied with him started jumping off into anti-Semitic land.

    Except you went farther than I did, because I believe the origin of the name 'Jew' DOES come only from the tribe of Judah. In 2 Kings 16 the KJV word "Jews" is Yehuwdiy in the Hebrew, which is derived from the name Judah (Yehuwdah).

    The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said those who returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity is when they first began to call themselves by the title of Jew. He said all the non-Israelite peoples which also returned with them from Babylon and dwelt in Judea, also took the name Jew. I believe that name was used to characterize only the remnant that returned to Jerusalem to build the second temple, city, and walls, and... that it was used to make them distinct from their brethren of the House of Israel (ten tribes) that had been taken captive to Assyria around 200 years before that.

     
  5. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    A picture tells a thousand words. This is actually suitable for framing as I have one hung up on my dining room wall:

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_k-bPNZiL84A/SUNyNoP1yjI/AAAAAAAAALI/pyMU1SE9hMA/s1600-h/GQEII.jpg
     
  6. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    Just out of curiosity,,,, What power does the queen have?
     
  7. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Ask her. They have a royal web site.
     
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Well, tim_from_pa has let the cat out of the bag. (thanks for the link Tim)

    That lineage chart of kings and queens is about God's fulfillment of His promise to David and his house, and to the tribe of Judah, involving David's throne on earth existing to all generations (2 Samuel 7).

    I don't ask others to believe it just because I do. That there exists much confusion about it among Christ's Body shows it is not yet time for its truth to be fully known. And if we got a personal invitation by the royal family for a private interview and asked them about this matter, they still probably wouldn't respond to it, even though they have kept genealogical records since ancient times.

    The other part in God's Birthright specifically to the tribe of Judah was as lawgiver (Genesis 49:10). That is another one of the responsibilities of the house of David, and is allied with what the KJV translators called King James as Defender Of The Faith (see letter by the translators to King James in the 1st edition 1611 KJV Bible).

     
  9. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Well Veteran, Lord knows I have way too many cats around my house in the country here, so I don't mind giving up one or two now and then. This cat did indeed bring a nice genealogical chart with her as she jumped out of her bag. :lol:
     
  10. Tehilah BaAretz

    Tehilah BaAretz New Member

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    To answer the OP, Judah's royal scepter is currently standing at the right hand of the Father.
     
  11. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Ezek 21:26-27
    26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
    27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until He come Whose right it is; and I will give it Him.
    (KJV)


    Gen 49:10-12
    10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be.
    11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
    (KJV)

    Christ (Shiloh) is not to reign on earth until His second coming. The throne of David is not to depart from the tribe of Judah on earth until Christ's second coming to sit in it. That Gen.49:10 verse declares that is also when the gathering of the people to Him is.


    Jer 23:5-6
    5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    (KJV)

    Jer 33:20-21
    20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break My covenant of the day, and My covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
    21 Then may also My covenant be broken with David My servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, My ministers.
    (KJV)

    God's covenant with David was that he would always have one of his seed always reign upon his throne on earth. That includes the time now, even until Christ returns.


    Jer 33:25-26
    25 Thus saith the LORD; If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
    26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
    (KJV)

    Ezek 17:22-24
    22 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent:
    23 In the mountain of the height of Israel will I plant it: and it shall bring forth boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar: and under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell.
    24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done it.
    (KJV)

    That was about Zedekiah king of Judah in Jerusalem being removed from David's throne by the king of Babylon, and God's promise to take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and crop off a tender one that is planted upon an high mountain and eminent. And thus the high tree (Zedekiah) was brought down, and the low tree (tender one) exalted. Zedekiah was the last king of the house of David to sit upon a throne in Jerusalem. Still today, David's throne is no longer there, and Christ has yet to come to sit upon it on earth, which is a requirement of Christ coming to inherit it.

     
  12. Tehilah BaAretz

    Tehilah BaAretz New Member

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    It is not a small point that you added "on earth" to your interpretation of the above scriptures. That is the critical point and you invented it. Let's stick with the Bible if we are trying to discuss what it says in the Bible. Your post is not valid!
     
  13. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Not an invention, but The Word of God...

    Ezek 21:26-27
    26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
    27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until He come Whose right it is; and I will give it Him.
    (KJV)

    David's throne on earth was to be overturned three times, on earth, until He comes (Christ) Whose right it is. The first overturn was king Zedekiah of Judah in Jerusalem during Jeremiah the prophet's days.

    Matt 25:31-33
    31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall he sit upon the throne of His glory:
    32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
    (KJV)

     
  14. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    I'll put in my two cents worth. The bible definitely teaches that the Davidic throne would continue all generations. "Even if" we could somehow convolute that to mean that the throne was "moved up to heaven" (not that I can find any such scripture that says that) at Christ's first coming and his ascension, there's still the serious problem of a lack of kings between Zedekiah and Christ which amounts to a whopping 600 years about--- not a small span of time. Sometimes I think God deliberately made that gap of time to silence the argument that the throne was moved up to heaven at Christ's first coming. If there was a King in Israel up to Christ's first coming, and then he took the scepter, then maybe we could believe that, although it would still be on the fringe or border. But that did not happen.

    This is why the Psalmist in psalm 89 was so upset in verse 39. His world was falling apart because earlier in the psalm he understood the throne to continue to all generations and that God would NEVER remove his covenant from King David. Had the writer of the psalm understood it to be a conditional covenant only, then he would have begged the Lord for forgiveness and to reestablish the throne again. Instead, he takes on a rather melancholy tone totally baffled as to why this occurred, but nevertheless states his faith in the Lord. The writer of the psalm also stated another interesting thing: the sun and moon will witness to this eternal throne of David. Now the sun and moon do not witness to heavenly things, as the heavens are above them, but rather to earth below, thus showing this is an earthly throne. The throne that Christ has now is on the right hand of God the father --- this relates to the throne on the mercy seat of the Ark. That's in heaven, not on earth.

    That's the whole point in Christ coming back to earth, to usher in His government, bring salvation to an even greater number of people (as the church is only the firstfruits now) and to take the throne of David. Somehow it's not proper exegesis to conclude that the throne was for awhile vacant, then moved up to heaven for awhile, and then back down to earth. That makes no sense whatsoever.
     
  15. Tehilah BaAretz

    Tehilah BaAretz New Member

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    The Ezekiel passage is interesting in the Hebrew. It does indeed declare that there will be ruin three times. What makes it interesting is that the declaration places the ruin directly into the hands (or on the head) of Messiah and allows Him to administer justice. That, of course, is exactly what He did when He suffered death and the grave for three days.
     
  16. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Yes, I agree that there would be a change in order or overturning 3 times. However, I'm not sure how you arrived at relating the 3 days of Messiah's time in the grave to 3 overturns, albeit an interesting thought.
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The thing about the Ezekiel 17 & 21 Scripture is that it includes a prophecy of a tender one that would be cropped off from Zedekiah ("high cedar"), and it would be planted in a high mountain and eminent. And then Ezek.21 gives the prophecy of it being overturned three times before Christ comes to inherit it.

    The end of Zedekiah's reign of the house of David in Jerusalem started the first 'overturn', and ended David's throne in Jerusalem where it has never been established since 586 B.C. David's throne then had to be planted somewhere else involving that "tender one" just to complete that first 'overturn'. And then after that, there was to be two more overturns afterwards. THREE times the high tree would be made low, and the low tree exalted, until Christ's return to sit upon it. That agrees with the Genesis 49:10 Scripture that states the royal sceptre would not depart from Judah until Shiloh (Messiah) comes for the gathering of the people to Him (i.e, Christ's second coming).

    The "tender one" of Ezek.17 that was to be planted is cropped off from young branches from the high cedar. King Zedekiah of Judah was represented by that high cedar. Jeremiah the prophet was kinsman redeemer to Zedekiah's daughters who escaped the Babylon captivity, who went into Egypt with Jeremiah and Jeremiah's scribe Baruch, where Biblically they are not heard of again. All of king Zedekiah's sons were killed by the king of Babylon, and Zedekiah himself died in Babylon.

    God's commission to Jeremiah the prophet was as a prophet to "the nations", in order "to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant (Jer.1:10). In the Book of Jeremiah, it's all about that part to root out, pull down, destroy, and throw down. But nothing is mentioned in the Book of Jeremiah about the last part of Jeremiah's commission "to build, and to plant".

    So did God fail with giving Jeremiah the commission to also "build, and to plant", pointing to him as guardian over "the king's daughters" of Zedekiah that escaped the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon? (Jer.43)

    Another important matter about the "riddle" in Ezek.17. God said He gave that as a "riddle" to "the house of Israel" (ten tribes), not to the house of Judah (three tribes). The house of Israel by that time only applied to the ten tribes of Israel that were scattered abroad already. And God told Ezekiel that He made him a watchman to the "house of Israel" (Ezek.3:17).

    So, before anyone could rightly claim that David's earthly throne was directly moved to Heaven with Christ after His crucifixion, its first overturn from Zedekiah to where it was to be planted would have had to been completed, and then two more overturns after the first would also have had to been completed. Those 3 overturns were not completed until long after Christ's first coming and Ascension to The Father.

     
  18. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Veteran:

    I also want to point out something about Ezekiel 17 that you may or may not know. Oftentimes those of us who believe in the transference of the throne claim that the "tender twig" is in the feminine and therefore can't refer to Messiah (masculine). However, there is even BETTER proof this is not talking about Messiah. The proof is simply this: That's not Messiah's family line! The family line there is talking about Zedekiah's linage, and possibly Jehoiachin. We know that Messiah did not come from Zedekiah's line. As for Jehoiachin, Messiah can't come from that, either, as that line was cursed (see Jeremiah 22:30) Yet, one or the other of these lineages is the subject of Ezekiel 17.

    This is why there was a virgin birth since the genealogy in Matthew, although the legal line, was also the cursed line. Jesus had to physically come thru another (Mary's) line in Luke. Being from another line in Luke, he did not have this curse, but adopted to Joseph's line In Matthew entitled Jesus legally to the throne.

    In short, what I am saying is that King Solomon was not Jesus' father, but rather a great, great great....uncle.

    This line in Luke, from David's son Nathan, IMO is what Isaiah 11 calls the "branch". We know of a lot of "branch" prophecies in the OT that refer to Christ. A branch implies ANOTHER genealogical lineage. And that branch was Jesse -- David --Nathan but still with legal ties to Jesse -- David -- Solomon. But the Queen today is descended from Solomon and Zedekiah. Of course Zedekiah was not cursed like his Nephew Jehoiachin, but that is the lineage God chosen by Ezekiel 17 to hold the throne until "he's whose right it is".

    On a side note here.... I love the Queen dearly, and pray for her constantly. Being an American that broke away from British rule, I find that ironic that I care for the Queen more than many of her citizens do.
     
  19. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I understand our Lord's lineage came from David's son Nathan (Luke 3), and not Solomon's (Matt.1). That's one of the matters some of Judah tries to use to prove Jesus is not the proper heir of David's throne.

    I consider the Queen as having lineage from the daughters of Zedekiah, and from the sons of Zarah (scarlet branch), both the Pharez and Zarah lines joined together. I know what you mean about the Queen, and I agree. Propaganda against the royal family has been going on for centuries now. But maybe God has blinded many so as to create a good contrast when Christ Jesus does appear and inherits David's throne on earth.
     
  20. Tehilah BaAretz

    Tehilah BaAretz New Member

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    The Ezekiel passage does not say overturn. It says ruin or destruction or possibly the separation of the body and soul. It is a reference to death.
     
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