Which act was greater? - Adam or Christ?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Did the results of the Fall of humankind supersede the results of the Atonement?
Was the act of the one man (Christ) insufficient to cover the act of the other man? (Adam)
Which act was greater? - Adam or Christ?

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

[
 

dremnant

Member
Mar 14, 2025
91
34
18
U.S.A.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A question for you... did God perform the first sacrifice providing skins for Adam and Eve?
It may not be a sacrifice per se, but definitely a substitute for Adam and Eve to die on that day in their stead...

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Did the results of the Fall of humankind
supersede the results of the Atonement?
Was the act of the one man (Christ) insufficient to cover the act of the other man? (Adam)
Which act was greater? - Adam or Christ?

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

[
 

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
10,000
12,771
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Did the results of the Fall of humankind
supersede the results of the Atonement?
Your argument here is the flip-side of the argument used by the Calvinists use to justify their belief in a Limited Atonement. If Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2), and if not all are saved (insert any damnationist or annihilationist verse here you want here; there's plenty of them), then Christ's Atonement is not effectual to save each and every person, QED. Then the Arminians and Calvinists start lobbing bible verse grenades at each other. Boom! This argument goes, if Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and if Christ's Atonement is effectual to save, then the whole world will be saved, QED.

One of the arguments against the Penal Substitution model of the Atonement is, why does God need to kill His own Son to make up for our sins? Why doesn't He just forgive us our trespasses as Jesus told us to forgive those who trespass against us? (See Prayer, comma, Lord's under Sermon, comma, On the Mount.) Does God hold us to a tighter moral standard than He holds Himself? (Where have I heard that argument before?) Oh, you say "Justice" requires that somebody gets punished? How can punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty in any way, shape, or form be considered "Justice"?

So, I've been kicking around the idea that Atonement has no "result". Atonement is a divine sacrament, and like the sacraments of Communion and Baptism, it has no reality other than as an outward and visible sign of an inward reality. That inward reality is, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20.) Christ has died our death as our punishment, Christ's blood has washed the stain of our sin away and we are His holy people, we are forgiven, and like Christ, we will rise again at the resurrection. Each believer must appropriate that inward reality for himself (or herself).

So, let's take that approach and see where it goes.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, I've been kicking around the idea that Atonement has no "result" Atonement is a divine sacrament, and like the sacraments of Communion and Baptism, it has no reality other than as an outward and visible sign of an inward reality. That inward reality is, "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20.) Christ has died our death as our punishment, Christ's blood has washed the stain of our sin away and we are His holy people, we are forgiven, and like Christ, we will rise again at the resurrection. Each believer must appropriate that inward reality for himself (or herself).

So, let's take that approach and see where it goes.
That's an interesting view, thanks.
If it's a sacrament for us, what is our outward "ceremony"? (reflecting the inward reality) ???
Or, if the atonement was the ceremony, how do we own it?

[
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lambano

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
10,000
12,771
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Or, if the atonement was the ceremony, how do we own it?
Probably the same way we own the inward reality of the Eucharist. Or our Baptisms.

20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God (literally, 'in the faithfulness of the Son of God'), who loved me and gave himself for me.

The Galatians 2:20 quote I used was the "life-verse" of a cantankerous old former missionary I crossed swords with twenty years ago on the old Key Life Forums when I first started doing the forum-thing. And the anchor verse of a scathing PM he sent me that I've kept for two decades. That verse has haunted me for twenty years. What did Paul mean by that? Is this how Paul "owned" the inward reality of Christ loving him and giving Himself up for him?

To allow Christ to live in us?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
18,967
5,786
113
35
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Probably the same way we own the inward reality of the Eucharist. Or our Baptisms.

20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God (literally, 'in the faithfulness of the Son of God'), who loved me and gave himself for me.

The Galatians 2:20 quote I used was the "life-verse" of a cantankerous old former missionary I crossed swords with twenty years ago on the old Key Life Forums when I first started doing the forum-thing. And the anchor verse of a scathing PM he sent me that I've kept for two decades. That verse has haunted me for twenty years. What did Paul mean by that? Is this how Paul "owned" the inward reality of Christ loving him and giving Himself up for him?

All those verses where Jesus talked about "taking up our cross" and following Him, about losing our lives in order to find them?

To allow Christ to live in us?
I had a dream not to long ago I was carry a cross but it had no wheels on it. Dat ting was way heavy.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To allow Christ to live in us?
Reminds me of this.
Being crucified with Christ means no longer allowing yourself to be ruled by the flesh.

Colossians 2:11 NIV
In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands.
Your whole self ruled by the flesh[a] was put off when you were circumcised by[b] Christ,

[
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
24,401
9,214
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Gender
Male
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

What you posted is another deception. @St. SteVen

See..........The Cross of Christ is the OFFER of Salvation to the World..........John 3:16.

So, "all who call on the name of Jesus"......while you are alive, "shall be saved".
This means you are born again.. on earth, so that God becomes your Heavenly Father, or if you are not He remains your Eternal Judge.
You can't be born again in Hell, and every Christ rejector who died today, and for the last 2000 yrs is now in Hell and they all believe in Jesus now, and it is useless, as you can't be born again in Hell.

Now, Cross Deniers... try to get rid of Hell , and they teach that God saved everyone already......so no need to trust in Christ on earth, and no need to be born again on earth
So these carnal people are ministers of the devil,....

2 Peter 2:12
2 Corin 11:15

...... as SATAN would have you not believe hell exists, and He would obviously have you believe that everyone is going to heaven.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And what does the Atonement say about God's inward reality? After all, it's His sacrament.

(And it's okay to answer that question from the viewpoint of a Universal Restorationist.)
At the risk of defending your position on the atonement...
I suppose the inward reality would be His unlimited love for all of humankind.

[
 
  • Love
Reactions: Lambano

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Did the results of the Fall of humankind
supersede the results of the Atonement?

Was the act of the one man (Christ) insufficient to cover the act of the other man? (Adam)
Which act was greater? - Adam or Christ?

Clyde Pilkington - Christ's Successful Work​

4,160 views Mar 28, 2014
Christ - a success or a failure? What did he come to do and did he actually accomplish it?
Well, he's the Son of God, isn't he!? Don't refuse to accept the truth that is the grace of God -
if righteousness does not come from Christ's work then Christ died for nothing. www.studyshelf.com

Results.
Romans 5:18 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
8,936
5,047
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Christ - a success or a failure? What did he come to do and did he actually accomplish it?
Well, he's the Son of God, isn't he!? Don't refuse to accept the truth that is the grace of God -
if righteousness does not come from Christ's work then Christ died for nothing. www.studyshelf.com
It’s all well and good to concentrate on a couple of passages of scripture, as if that is the entirety of truth....but these verses do not cancel out what else the Bible says, which are of equal importance.

If Christ’s sacrifice automatically covers “all men” who inherited sin from Adam, what was the point of Jesus ministry? What was the point of the preaching work that he commanded, which divided people into two categories....those saved because they accepted Jesus as their savior, and those who refused to do so, like the Pharisees whom Jesus condemned to “Gehenna” (the second death. Matt 23:33).

How can it be “all men” when Jesus himself precluded those he condemned to eternal death?

You see what argues against this ‘universal salvation’ or the ‘once saved always saved’ mentality? That “we don’t have to do anything because Christ did it all for us.....so it doesn’t matter what you believe, because God will not demand anything from you.....and it doesn’t matter what you do...you cannot lose your salvation.”
Both of these are false assumptions. The work Christ did in redeeming us, offers us the choice of salvation or not.
Live a life in imitation of Christ and be rewarded with life everlasting......or choose the easy road where you can do whatever you like, and believe whatever you like....because it doesn’t matter....the latter is absolute unscriptural nonsense. We have to prove our worth to God by the way we live our lives. Sin does not have to rule over us. Satan can use our sinful inclinations to tempt us into sin, but he cannot force us disobey God’s commands....we do that ourselves.

What is the point of Jesus’ words concerning the “two roads” (Matt 7:13-14) or the “sheep and the goats” where one is approved for everlasting life but the others condemned to eternal death?
According to Jesus, the “goats” will be sent to the place that is reserved or ”prepared” for satan and his angels. (Matt 25:41) They actually go there before those villains do.....a place of no return.

Nothing adds up with this man’s claim..... If Jesus’ death saves everyone without them having to make a choice to become a Christian, and actually choose a difficult path that leads to life, then he could have slipped in quietly, had his life ended without fanfare or pain, and bingo! Salvation is assured for everyone.....is that how it took place?
Results.
Romans 5:18 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
The “all people” in that verse is all who choose to become Christ’s disciples......those who think otherwise are just looking for a way to take the easy road, which Jesus said leads to death. The two roads have two opposite directions, and destinations....you can’t just brush theses things aside and pretend that God has no standards to hold us to....he always has.

Right from the start, life was conditional....it depended on man’s obedience to his Maker’s commands.
“Obey and live....disobey and die”....were pretty straightforward choices. The choice to obey God is no less today than it was in Eden before the fall.....and the devil is still trying to get humans on the wrong side by presenting his lies as truth. Jesus said that the majority are on the wrong road, but they will be the last to know it. (Matt 7:21-23)

We don’t have to be one of the dupes trying to make a difficult path into an easy one. It’s difficult for a reason.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TazzJazz

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It’s all well and good to concentrate on a couple of passages of scripture, as if that is the entirety of truth....but these verses do not cancel out what else the Bible says, which are of equal importance.
I guess we have found a biblical contradiction then?
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
18,269
6,823
113
71
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You see what argues against this ‘universal salvation’ or the ‘once saved always saved’ mentality? That “we don’t have to do anything because Christ did it all for us.....so it doesn’t matter what you believe, because God will not demand anything from you.....and it doesn’t matter what you do...you cannot lose your salvation.”
If you think anything can save you other than Christ...
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
8,936
5,047
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
I guess we have found a biblical contradiction then?
No contradiction...just poor interpretation...based on the easy road verses the cramped and narrow one.
If you want to take the easy road, there is a very broad gate...wide open and “many” are travelling that route. But it’s not the right one....it’s a dead end.

If you think anything can save you other than Christ...
Nothing other than Christ’s sacrifice will save any of us...but its application is conditional, just as continuing life was in Eden. It’s about choices, which is why we have free will.....which isn’t “free” in the sense that you can use it selfishly....free will needs to be exercised within the parameters set by the Creator...like it or not.

He sets the rules not us. The clay doesn’t tell the Potter how to do his job.
 

quietthinker

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2018
15,669
9,631
113
Sunshine
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Christ had the greater act.

However, not like in Adam all die. To be made alive in Christ one must receive his gift. God will not force his salvation on anyone
read it as it reads, not as you want it to read.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

We are given life by no choice of our own....in other words, life is a gift, it is outside of the realm of choice.....ask your Mother.
We can now choose to end life....anyway we like; chronic emphysema (smoking), drug overdose, jumping off a cliff.....ask any Coroner.

Salvation (saved from death) is gifted to all yet many prefer to die because of the deception/ delusion of getting a better deal. That choice is permanent.
 
  • Love
Reactions: St. SteVen