dragonfly said:
Hi veteran,
I know you'll correct me if you think I'm wrong
but you know I won't mind that. Do you agree that this blindness, caused by both God's pronouncement and idolatry - walking in darkness - is a significant factor, today?
Yes, it apparently is part of how God is allowing many among His people and Christ's Church to become deceived for the last days, helping in the great falling away Paul mentioned. I won't let up about the source of it that I've already pointed to here on this forum. The problem is that Biblically, the worst creeping in of the unawares during Bible history has been among our brother Judah. That's where the majority of the 'blindness' is centered, as Apostle Paul also revealed in Romans 11. Many of their doctrines have a way of creeping into Christ's Church also, simply because the crept in unawares are among Christ's body also, even as they were in Paul's days. So the warnings by Christ's Apostles, like Paul's in Acts 20:28-31 with his departing, are especially... in effect for the Church today. And what are many in Christ's Church today doing instead? Having a big party mentality, as if the main battle is already over. Instead, the main battle is coming in our days.
dragonfly said:
In respect to one line of Rex's exposition of Daniel 9:27 (re Matthew 23:38)
it does tie in with Jesus' words to and about the Pharisees, to say nothing of the priests who conspired against Him
.
Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things [about how a man cannot serve God and mammon - 'two masters']: and they derided him. 15 And Jesus said to them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knows your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Covering all the dealings our Lord Jesus had with the Pharisees, we know His most harsh rebukes were not to all of them (recall Nicodemus, and Jesus dined with some of them; Nicodemus brought spices for His burial). Some of them believed on our Lord Jesus, so we cannot apply what He said in all cases to them like a blanket rebuke. Once that's understood, His strongest rebukes to the scribes and Pharisees stand out more as to the foreigner bondservants and Idumeans of OT history that had crept in among them, and were calling theirselves Jews, i.e., those He labeled as the "synagogue of Satan" in Rev.2:9 and Rev.3:9 when speaking to His elect. In every way, those specific ones well knew Who He was, which is why those specific ones wanted to kill Him all the more (see John 8 for His greatest rebuke of those crept in unawares, the tares among the good wheat).
As for Matt.23:38, their house was... left desolate because of their corruptions. But that was not what the 'abomination of desolation' is. The "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is specific to an idol abomination that makes... the sanctuary spiritually desolate. And that's a destruction of a different color that never... happened in 70 A.D. Moreover, Dan.9:27 speaks of something being made desolate BECAUSE of "the overspreading of abominations", with a certain "he" doing that, with very specific info on how in the Dan.11:30-31 verses, which is a pointer to the coming Antichrist and 2 Thess.2:3-4 placing an idol in false worship in Jerusalem. (what Antiochus IV in 165-170 B.C. did was the actual pattern for the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel. Yet Christ warned about the "abomination of desolation" long after Antiochus' days).
dragonfly said:
More could be said about the abominations named in scripture, in which Pharisees engaged, but I want to stay with the blindness which 'happened to Israel', dating back to Isaiah 6 (for the sake of readers):
Matthew 15:10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:11 Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.
12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
15 Then answered Peter and said to him, Declare to us this parable. 16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? We know they really didn't have the Holy Spirit illuminating their undersanding, yet.
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defiles not a man.
Fast forward to Paul's plea beginning in Romans 9, and we come to Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.
As I see it, this is the point at which unbelieving Israel/false Jews become visible. Just as before, as in the days of Jeroboam, they are continuing in idolatry (covetousness), only this time the 'golden calves' they are kissing, are: the land, another temple, religious practices, and a willingness to kill to get what they think they deserve. 'We have no king but Caesar'. As Paul wrote in Romans 2, due to their unrepentant attitudes, they are storing up wrath for themselves.
Once again, it's important to be careful of blanket accusations, since our Lord Jesus contrasted the 'tares' from the 'good wheat'. Many wrongly assume that the scribes and Pharisees are all of the seed of Israel, and just 'blinded' per the Rom.11 Message.
Not so. Take the scribes for example. Per 1 Chronicles 2:55 and Genesis 15 the scribes were descended from the Kenite peoples, a people that dwelt among the nations of Canaan when God first gave His covenant to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not even born yet. So here these scribes were, not even seed born Israelites, and they were the main caretakers of The Scriptures, making copies and keeping them from one generation to the next! Are we to be so naive as to think all of them truly converted to The God of Israel? Our Lord Jesus' explanation of the parable of the tares of the field reveals that we are not... to be that naive. If someone in Christ's Church does not understand that as written, then they reveal the Romans 11 'blindness' upon theirself, and have little clue as to who Israel's real enemies are. What makes this even more of a consternation is how our Heavenly Father long ago revealed this in Scripture like Judges 2 & 3 when Israel failed to obey Him in wiping out the nations of Canaan that He commanded to be completely destroyed. He said He would leave those among Israel, to try His people, to test them to see if they would follow Him, or not. Does that sound like all the remnants of those Canaanite nations that crept in among His people would turn away from their false gods and instead worship only Him? No, it does not. God warned His people; we have no excuse if we allow the tares to get a foot hold and cause any of God's people to go astray.
dragonfly said:
This is 'Israel of the flesh', who by their unbelief, sadly, exclude themselves from 'the promise'. These continue to pass unbelief down the generations, despite what happened in the wilderness. Hebrews 3:16, 17, 18, 19.
Nope. There's the 'tares' which are the root of paganology and false worship, and then the 'good wheat' of the flesh seed of Israel, and spiritual Israel. The majority are not taught about the 'tares' and their origins per God's Word. Nor have they made the connection with their history as Jews joined among the 'good wheat' (true Jews). Christ made that distinction, true Jew, false Jew, got it? One of the seed of Israel can be following the 'tares' (false Jews) and perish, just as with a Gentile. But the 'blindness' idea of Rom.11 from Apostle Paul is for the seed of Israel, NOT the 'tares' for the 'tares' are NOT blinded; they know what they do and who they really worship (i.e., Lucifer).
dragonfly said:
God has not changed and neither have those who refuse to turn to the Lord.
Paul captures the scenario for us at the end of Romans 2:
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and rest in the law, and make thy boast of God, 18 And know his will, and approve the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And are confident that thou thyself are a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore who teaches another, teaches thou not thyself? thou that preaches a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that says a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 25 For circumcision verily profits, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
Isn't this what you are trying to highlight? Being a renegade of Israel throws the whole focus away from God.
And being a non-Jew-at-heart, leads unbelieving Jews and those who align themselves with them from the secular world and the Church, to become totally vulnerable to God's judgment - because they are not following the Lord Jesus Christ and His doctrine, but rather are following deceptions and doctrines of devils which have the potential to destroy them?
That's not it at all. Paul's rebuke there can be applied to any of the Jews of the seed of Israel that refuse to give up those things which Christ nailed to His cross. What I mean by that, is one like how Saul was before Christ converted him, sincere in what he followed, a true believer on our Heavenly Father and seeker after righteousness.
If you ever read some of the devil's ideas written in the Babylonian Talmud sage writings, you might then understand about the ones I'm talking about. It's called the Babylonian Talmud because that's when and where that branch of Jewish philsophy got started, during Judah's 70 years Babylon captivity. That's also probably when their Jewish mystic Kabbalah system got started. Take the old Canaanite paganology and join it together with the Old Covenant to create a separate cosmology and mystical philosophical system and that's what you get. No wonder it contains ideas that it's OK to murder the 'Goyim' (Gentiles), and lie to them, steal, whatever, as long as they don't do it to one of their own. This is why mysticism, the occult, etc., can be found among so many of their teachings. What I'm saying, is that PAGANS crept in among the Jews back in Old Testament history, joined their pagan culture to create the systems of the scribes and Pharisees, and THAT especially is what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles rebuked.
This is why once you understand about that distinction, it becomes more clear why Jesus and some of the Apostles had such strong rebukes towards some of them...
Matt 3:4-10
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
John the Baptist preparing the way for Christ's first coming. Easy to grasp that.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Whoah! It's not written that those Pharisees and Sadducees did any stir there yet, and immediately John jumps on them with his rebuke. "O generation of vipers"? what's that? Literally, John called them an offspring of snakes. John also put them in the category of receiving God's impending wrath to come unless they repent.
9 And think not to say within yourselves, 'We have Abraham to our father': for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Why would John bring that up which they say? If you were one of the old Canaanite pagans crept in among Judea, attained a high place of respectability among the Jews, calling yourself a Jew of Israel, hiding, wouldn't you make the false claim of being a descendent of Abraham? John knew those were not descended from Abraham, which is why he brought that up before they could falsely claim it. And as another counter to that claim, John tells them that God is able to even raise up rocks to be children of Abraham (thus pointing to spiritual Israel, seed counted as Israel according to Faith on Christ Jesus).
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
(KJV)
What is that our Lord Jesus said about the corrupt evil tree not being able... to produce good fruit? Jude 1 tells us that certain men were 'ordained' of old to this condemnation of being against Christ. Doesn't mean it's impossible for any of those 'tares' to convert and truly come to Christ Jesus, but they've been given a nature to instead purposefully work for the devil, and they would have to first overcome that ordaining by God Himself. Thus this is part of the "mystery of iniquity" that Paul mentioned, and what the parable of the tares of the field is about, and it's part of God's Plan for this world that He ordained. We cannot change it, but we are... to understand it since our Lord Jesus foretold us about it (Matt.13).
dragonfly said:
I'll be honest, I don't know why you think Rex might be open to deception, just because he's focusing on one aspect of revelation in its historical context. If the things you're speaking of are being fulfilled, way after the 70th week, then aren't we all on the same page, that Jesus prophesied about our time, but Daniel did not...???
Surely I don't have to tell you where a lot of the seminary doctrines have been springing from, not after all that I covered already. Do I need to cover Christ's Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13 line upon line again? For those interested, I've already done that once on this forum. Look back for it. The signs Jesus gave there are for the very end of this world, not for 70 A.D., although 70 A.D. served as a pattern type, just like how what Antiochus Epiphanes in 170 B.C. served as a 'pattern' for the future "abomination of desolation" event to come in Jerusalem that's described in the Book of Daniel.
Rex said:
Here's what I see veteran, you believe you have the whole the bible all figured out you have carefully selected scriptures that support your opinion. The problem is as is for many that it excludes foundational principles that are repeat many times threw-out the NT.
NO ONE has ALL of God's Word figured out. But I don't mind you wrongly claiming that I think I do, since all your statement shows is nothing but jealousy. Water off a duck's back man.
Rex said:
The first is of course the temple and what Jesus himself declared against it. It is of no more use or value. The naoes is now with-in those in Christ period.
You're wrong. Try telling that to the Orthodox Jews in Israel today who are getting ready to build another temple in Jerusalem. Burying your head in the sand about it isn't going to make it go away. And I've already shown how your play on Greek words for 'temple' is fallacy.
Rex said:
No temple ever being reconstructed will ever reverse Jesus declaring it desolate in Matthew 23. No works of un-believing Jews is ever going undo the tearing of the veil. In effect it will NEVER be found or declared Gods temple in the eyes of GOD.
Yeah, the Matt.23 Scripture of their house being left desolate is another pry-bar tool used to try and get believers off the signs of the end that Jesus gave in the next Matt.24 chapter. You're not the first one here that's tried to use that ploy.
Those in Christ Jesus don't need a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem today, but Jesus will build one for His Milennial reign as shown in the Book of Ezekiel. But the unbelieving Jews, that's different, because they don't recognize the New Covenant nor Jesus Christ (which you well know but are only playing possum on those things they desire). THEY think they need it, because THEY believe the Old Covenant is STILL in effect for them. And THEY have every intention of claiming it will be 'God's Temple'. Is your head coming out of the sand any yet?
(Where's that youtube video of one of the Orthodox Jews giving his spill about the plan to rebuild another literal Jewish temple in Jerusalem today? Somebody put that up for old Rex here again).
Rex said:
This form of interpretation ignores huge portions of teaching from the NT, it's common in the "church today" it's as though ignoring repeated teachings that are contrary to portions of the NT is the only way to understand. Not to mention the host of cookie cutter labels that are manufactured and applied to anyone or anything that questions WHY do you teach this when the NT clearly doesn't indicate it. As some may have noticed this is veterans greatest defense of the scriptures I presented, monikers and labels. In other words he can't dispute the host of scripture that contradicts his interpretation and refuses to understand the writings and see them in harmony with one another but instead chooses to argue against not me but what is repeated many times in the NT.
What form of interpretation do you speak of? The ideas YOU're pulling from are not even written in God's Word, because there is NO relation to the spiritual temple of Christ's Body which Paul described in Ephesians compared with the literal physical temple he described in 2 Thess.2:3-4. The only thing sticking out in your interpretation is ignorance of the difference between the subject of Ephesians and the subject of 2 Thessalonians 2.
How many times must we hear you say, "It isn't so, it isn't so, it isn't so," like some little school child crying to try and get their way?
An affirmation is when one tries to assert something to theirself, over and over, and over, in hopes it will be. One can assert continuously saying it is not so, but that proves nothing. You can even say it to yourself so many times that you begin to believe it. Still doesn't change a thing. But that's what untruthful people like you love to do, make false claims over and over and over, in hopes someone will listen.
Rex said:
I'm unsure of what your point is with the closing statement. I'm going to presume you still understand it mean what Dispensationalists understand it to mean, that God has blinded the Jewish people for many generations on account of the fathers. The only way this works is to believe that God punishes for many generations the sin of the father, I been watching daq and yours conversation about the sour grapes in Jer.
Secondly I ask you to show me in the NT where salvation to the Jews is based on being a decedent of Abraham? This is also THE verse used to support such nonsense, and I will show you at least 7 that says it is not based on bloodlines. So in regards to your comment, If God doesn't save according to blood why does he blind and curse according to blood lines?
He's talking about the blindness of Romans 11 which Apostle Paul declared that's upon the unbelieving Jews.
