You are quite correct in that no one can *explain* the Trinity, nor should anyone try to do so. This is the Mystery of God. Christians can proclaim this truth, and believe it, because it is clearly revealed in Scripture.
Which View of the Trinity do You Believe?
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Philip James
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Good post, it is indeed one of the mysteries of God , and our undertanding of it is limited by our puny human minds...
All praise to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, One God, forever and ever!
Amen!
How frightening it must be for some people to admit that although they "think" something is a certain way, in reality (just like the rest of us) they honestly don't KNOW.
I think a lot of people must have been raised to believe that if they don't swear they KNOW something for a fact, that they are somehow lacking in "Spirituality."
I think a lot of people must have been raised to believe that if they don't swear they KNOW something for a fact, that they are somehow lacking in "Spirituality."
Philip James
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I would agree with you here to a point.
Because sometimes God confirms your faith in ways that DO make you know!
Unfortunately, in God's mysterious ways, trying to convince somebody else with your own private experience with God, is usually ineffective.
God alone can soften and change hearts...
Peace!
I was talking about someone swearing they "KNOW" what the 'Trinity' is and how it works.... things like that.
Philip James
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I believe there is God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. How to explain that, I'm not sure, but they are One. There is only One God. Maybe you all heard it explained like this; but the Trinity is like H20 - you have water as a liquid, steam, and ice. All are water (H20) but take on different attributes of that form. That's how I heard someone try to explain it.
Nor did I mean to sound snippy. Sorry. (I guess I am too sensitive about people who are always ready to explain the whole universe, and beyond, to everyone else)
The "oneness", unity, or 'one substance' concept of the trinity is where many come unstuck. It is claimed in the creeds, and believed in by most Christians, that the three persons of the trinity are inseparably joined together in one substance. Most would describe the trinity as follows: "each person of the trinity/Godhead is by nature God, and the fullness of the deity dwells in each of them. ON the other hand, each person of the Godhead is inseparably linked/connected to the other two".
Therefore a Trinitarian, in accordance to the popular creeds, does not believe that Christ died, because He is always alive (always has His existence in) the one substance (one being) of God. They must therefore only consent that Christ's death was nothing more than a human sacrifice. This is the pure unsullied undergirding of the trinity, as propagated at Nicea and the following councils, and is a denial of the atonement.
Whereas only the death of a divine person could affect the atonement. Why? Because any other life is subject to the very laws of God for which transgression was atoned for. Not even angels could have given their life for mankind, because as a created beings, their lives belong to God...an angel's life is not his to give. Nor is a man's life his to give. Only the divine Son of the Almighty God, Himself deity by virtue of the fact that the Father "gave to the Son to have life in Himself", and the Father gave the Son "power to lay down His life", that Jesus could give His life a ransom for man's life. Only a person equal to the law could atone for its transgression. The Lawgiver.
The divine Son of God died at Calvary. He was separated from His Father, voluntarily laying down His life. This the trinity denies. Thus the version of the trinity that denies the death of the Son of God in the atonement, I deny.
Therefore a Trinitarian, in accordance to the popular creeds, does not believe that Christ died, because He is always alive (always has His existence in) the one substance (one being) of God. They must therefore only consent that Christ's death was nothing more than a human sacrifice. This is the pure unsullied undergirding of the trinity, as propagated at Nicea and the following councils, and is a denial of the atonement.
Whereas only the death of a divine person could affect the atonement. Why? Because any other life is subject to the very laws of God for which transgression was atoned for. Not even angels could have given their life for mankind, because as a created beings, their lives belong to God...an angel's life is not his to give. Nor is a man's life his to give. Only the divine Son of the Almighty God, Himself deity by virtue of the fact that the Father "gave to the Son to have life in Himself", and the Father gave the Son "power to lay down His life", that Jesus could give His life a ransom for man's life. Only a person equal to the law could atone for its transgression. The Lawgiver.
The divine Son of God died at Calvary. He was separated from His Father, voluntarily laying down His life. This the trinity denies. Thus the version of the trinity that denies the death of the Son of God in the atonement, I deny.
That's not true at all, the Trinity does not deny such at all.
The three persons are 'as' one, they are not one but are three 'in' one.
The Holy Spirit gives Light to all this to man and is our well spring, without such we can not know anything, because it's this that gives us this information of who Jesus is and who God the Father is in fact.
Jesus is not God The Father, he is the Son of God Emmanuel, so that means he is with us, the one who we all need, no one can come to the Father but by Jesus Christ, he came so all man could comprehend.
The Holy Spirit was around in the days before Jesus and God the Father was the creator, so there was only two before Jesus came.
All three are one in the same thing, just that they have different functions in one unity.
Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit in fact and this was around at the beginning and will be at the end, so Jesus never died, his earthly body was attacked as was the Holy Spirit by mans Sinful nature, but the holy Spirit can never be killed.
God the Father gives us everything we know and more.
No one is separated from God the Father, where are you going to go that he does not have domain over.
Jesus came to give us Life Abundantly, so in knowing him we have that gift it's the Light of the World, the gift of the Holy Spirit. People were in darkness before this.
The Jews new day starts in darkness. the Jews start of the day was when darkness came on, that was the start of the new day.
The Christians new day starts in the morning Light. this because of Jesus is the Light and we have taken this 'that' the first day of our year of the Lord.
ScottA
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The problem of understanding the triune nature of God...is that we have heard it in a children's story and from that very elementary perspective. If we didn't have some greater knowledge of God, the whole thing would appear to be contradictory nonsense. I mean even Jesus said, "I and the Father are One" and then "Father why have you forsaken Me." - Huh?
But each account is to children, and the actual context, as every parent should know, is "Do as I say, not as I do."
The mistake is to make a religion out of one or other childhood understandings. This is why the scriptures are strong on "God is One God", but subtle on the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" being an actual "trinity."
So...are They a "Trinity?" - Yes, of course. But that would be like saying a Renior painting...is a "picture." ... Okay class...maybe we should have gone to the petting zoo!
For goodness sakes - don't get hung up with the little three-divided plates.
Potato salad?
But each account is to children, and the actual context, as every parent should know, is "Do as I say, not as I do."
The mistake is to make a religion out of one or other childhood understandings. This is why the scriptures are strong on "God is One God", but subtle on the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" being an actual "trinity."
So...are They a "Trinity?" - Yes, of course. But that would be like saying a Renior painting...is a "picture." ... Okay class...maybe we should have gone to the petting zoo!
For goodness sakes - don't get hung up with the little three-divided plates.
Potato salad?
Either Christ died for man, or didn't. If He didn't, then the Father never really 'gave Him'. Sin separates us from God. Jesus, becoming sin for us, was separated from His Father. The at-one-ment brings man back to fellowship with God. Without Christ's real death, which the trinity (the man-made formulaic version of the trinity), and both you and the trinity deny, there can be no atonement.
Sin separates us from the only source of life, hence we die. In grace God does not separate us entirely, because through HIs only Son a part union is established, but no-one can see or approach the Father because of sin. That is why we need a Mediator. Without the Mediator you are eternally lost...which results in eternal separation,,,which results in eternally dead...
@ScottA Can't minimize the importance of these matters. While perhaps not affecting the actual salvation of some, it certainly can affect the way one considers the character and nature of God's love, which then if considered selfish, or whimsical, will indeed affect salvation.
OzSpen
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Enoch,
Based on the evidence from Scripture, even though there are 'mysteries' associated with the Trinity, we can teach the evidence provided in Scripture. This is the Bible teacher's responsibility according to 2 Tim 3:16-17 (NIV):
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Therefore, the God-breathed Scripture is 'useful for teaching' and 'correcting' on doctrines such as the Trinity.
We can go no further than what God has revealed in Scripture in understanding the Trinity.
In my article, Is the Trinity taught in the Bible? I have searched the Scriptures to find that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each God. I have yet to add that these 3 are separate persons.
I have a contrary response to your statement, 'no one can *explain* the Trinity, nor should anyone try to do so'. When I meet JWs and Oneness Pentecostals who challenge me on the doctrine of the Trinity, are you recommending that I throw my hands in the air and say to them, 'I can't explain the Trinity and I'm not going to try it with you. But I still believe the Trinity for unknown reasons'? Is that how I ought to reply?
Or, should I go to the study I've done to show them from Scripture the teaching of the Trinity?
Which is the biblical way to go?
Oz
OzSpen
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@brakelite ….one point to make...
John 10:14-18 means that Jesus was fully conscious and aware of the consequences and willing to go to the cross for mankind, as he did not have to if he chose not to die. Jesus was the ‘good’ shepherd that not only owned (was responsible for) and loved his yet-unsaved and future saved followers and friends, he loved his Father more. The Father gave him his true believers, past, present and future. In love for his Father and those given to him, he laid down his life. Jesus knew that to destroy the ‘wolves’ in his time and later into our time and beyond, he would have to lay down his life to destroy these spirit destroyers and false teachers.
In turn, this ‘power’ or ‘authority’ in the translation means Jesus went knowing his love for his fellow friends and because of the love of his Father in making this decision. His decision was one of love and by the spirit, not of the flesh and the glory for self. His Father was given the glory.
His Father was ‘right behind’ him in spirit and mind. They were of one accord. As Jesus went to the cross on his own and his Father’s accord, Jesus knew his Father already commanded/promised as assurance that his body/spirit would live again after his death. Jesus was promised glory, or a glorified body.
This truth and these events did not make Jesus divine at this point in his life.
John 5:26: Only after his ascension to heaven (to rule) was Jesus given independent life or power from his Father to become at least a divine judge and executioner over mankind because Jesus is the son of men (man). Jesus was and is always dependent on his Father as we are today at least on Jesus Christ for salvation, and always and ever shall be in the service and dependent on the Father.
Bless you,
APAK
John 10:14-18 means that Jesus was fully conscious and aware of the consequences and willing to go to the cross for mankind, as he did not have to if he chose not to die. Jesus was the ‘good’ shepherd that not only owned (was responsible for) and loved his yet-unsaved and future saved followers and friends, he loved his Father more. The Father gave him his true believers, past, present and future. In love for his Father and those given to him, he laid down his life. Jesus knew that to destroy the ‘wolves’ in his time and later into our time and beyond, he would have to lay down his life to destroy these spirit destroyers and false teachers.
In turn, this ‘power’ or ‘authority’ in the translation means Jesus went knowing his love for his fellow friends and because of the love of his Father in making this decision. His decision was one of love and by the spirit, not of the flesh and the glory for self. His Father was given the glory.
His Father was ‘right behind’ him in spirit and mind. They were of one accord. As Jesus went to the cross on his own and his Father’s accord, Jesus knew his Father already commanded/promised as assurance that his body/spirit would live again after his death. Jesus was promised glory, or a glorified body.
This truth and these events did not make Jesus divine at this point in his life.
John 5:26: Only after his ascension to heaven (to rule) was Jesus given independent life or power from his Father to become at least a divine judge and executioner over mankind because Jesus is the son of men (man). Jesus was and is always dependent on his Father as we are today at least on Jesus Christ for salvation, and always and ever shall be in the service and dependent on the Father.
Bless you,
APAK
The biblical way is to show anyone (believers or skeptics) what it clearly stated in Scripture. But if someone says "How is that possible", the only honest response would be 'No human being can "explain" the Godhead'.
The truth is that no matter how many Scriptures you show to any JW or any other group that rejects the Trinity, they will continue to believe their own false teachings.
Helen
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Haha!
And we meet many on Christian forums.
Starting with the words- " You are wrong..."
Which obviously means that they have everything locked down, understood , and in it's box. lol
Humility goes out of the window ....
As you say...their security is in "KNOWING" ... ( or believing that they do)
When I was in my 30's and 40's I "knew" a lot more than I do now at 76
You are far from reality and not in synch with scripture Enoch. Yours is based on fable and pagan thought. It is very dangerous to spout this trinity model of yours as Truth without no spiritual support and foundation. Here's a well-used cartoon that shows some of the absurdity in your words and beliefs.
Can you easily discard or ridicule the words depicted by the character of Jesus in the picture?
Bless you,
APAK
So what do you believe, and do you accept the words of Christ in Matthew 28:19? (why is genuine Scripture).
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