Triumph1300
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Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Correct.
And that name is Jesus Christ.
Which View of the Trinity do You Believe?
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Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Correct.
And that name is Jesus Christ.
Since the Son cannot be the Father or the Holy Spirit, that "name" (singular) is "God", but there are three distinct Persons within the Godhead -- hence the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
This is confirmed by Justin Martyr, who was one of the earliest "Church Fathers" (110-165 AD) and lived very close to the Apostolic Age. Here is what he wrote: "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water." (Justin Martyr, "First Apology," Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pg. 183)
The Didache is another very early Christian document (1st century), and here is what it says: Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;..." (Didache 7:1).
Just for those who might not know... The Ante Nicene Fathers is a term used to describe those theologians and writers who predate the Council of Nicaea.
Typical, you ignored my query and you just want me to answer your question(s), as many of your kind always do.
Oh yes, you present the famous Matthew 28:19 verse, among many other verses that attempt to prop up the pagan trinity formula.
No, I do not believe in this text as it stands. It was a fabrication and inserted from side notes into scripture. There are NO translations of this verse in Latin, Greek or Hebrew that has the trinity formula in it before 300 AD. It was an addition by the RCCs to support the trinity model.
The original text was originally in ‘Jesus’ name’ or ‘Jesus Christ,’ in harmony with other verses of scripture like Acts 2:38; 8:12, 16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinth 1:13; Gal 3:27
Even the RCCs admit they added it:
“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.” — (The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, p. 263)
You must do much better than that Enoch to convince me of this theory of yours you seem comfortable ‘owning.’
So, I surmise you will be dumping a dozen more cherry-picked verses on me, for my homework, to try and reject or disprove as your support for your trinity model; typical. This process of communications gets old fast although I will go through each one if you wish, and then you will go away with an empty victory as all other have before you.
You might want to examine and do a serious study yourself of these so-called support verses of the trinity model. You might not be so quick to shout out that there is scriptural support for it.
Bless you,
APAK
Are you rejecting that his name is not Emmanuel ?
Do you know the verse for this or understand that Jesus is God with us, that's for us, so we can understand, no one ever understood God until Jesus came for us.
Now Jesus came only for Man, not you dog or your cat etc they can't cut it, so one can not put a Cross on a grave of a cat etc because such is blasphemy, Jesus never came for your Dog etc.
Jesus came for all men as 'God with us' Emmanuel, that's who he is "our Lord and Saviour" he is "for us", so that we will have a handle on Sin and be guided by the Holy Spirit, Jesus must be number one in our lives, because it is him we Serve and he is as one with God the Father.
No one knew God the Father but for Jesus Christ and it was only when he came then the gates to Heaven were opened to man.
Jesus did die for man.
Just as a true Christian will die but his Spirit will not die, the same it was with Jesus but he was the Holy Spirit incarnate.
What are you saying that Jesus is dead and did not Rise from the Dead.
Naomi25
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There are two acceptable views of the Trinity that I am aware of...
1) Immanent/Classical/3 in 1 God or one triune God: In this one, God is one having 3 "subsistences" (not actual persons) all 3 of which share the same attributes. This is the usual and biblical view of Catholics and Reform-based denominations as I understand it. And this is the God of heaven and eternity. Each Person of God is "in" the other 2 Persons there such that together they are one God.
2) Economic/Relational/out of 1 come 3 Persons/God in Trinity: In this one, God becomes 3 actual Persons (separate bodies, wills, and self-awareness) having different attributes. This is how I see the Bible describing God. It is God seen in the context of time and from the earthly perspective. What we see from the earthly perspective is that God sent forth His Holy Ghost (Spirit + Son, the pre-incarnate Son) to created everything that exists. Then, in due time, the Holy Ghost came over Mary and the Spirit of the Father conceived the Son in her womb. In His death for our sins, Jesus returned via His Holy Ghost to the Father in heaven seated at His right hand. And in the New Jerusalem, He will resume is eternal, Immanent existence.
Trick question-- they both are correct views. How can we conceive of this in our minds? Well, we too are Immanent/3 in 1/triune -- soul, spirit, and body. But, in the context of time, we are also Economic/out of 1, 3 persons/trinity consisting of -- 1) who we were (sinner) .. 2) who we are (born again, new man, etc.) .. 3) who we will be (glorified person in eternity with a new name, etc. Rev 3:12)
Bottom line: We need not debate this issue. Both views are true in 2 different contexts.
skypair
While there is a lot of word "craft smith" in these two paragraphs that do, indeed, make them similar when it comes to the crunch, I think i'd have to perhaps disagree with Number 2: "different attributes". Do they really have different "attributes"? Or do they just have different tasks and physical forms?
You are testifying to your own unbelief. You do NOT believe Jesus died. You believe only His body died. You prefer the testimony of Satan above the word of God, that the wages of sin is death. Satan says "ye shall not surely die....."
All we need to do is to show from Scripture that:
1. The Father is God
2. The Son is God
3. The Holy Spirit is God
If that is established from the Bible, then nothing you say about the Trinity will matter. It is not a "formula" but a "Bible fact".
1. The Father is God -- there are dozens of verses which make this crystal clear. One should suffice.
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
2. The Son is God -- again there are dozens of verses which establish this truth. We will take just two:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God,even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Heb 1:8,9)
3. The Holy Spirit is God -- one passage should suffice.
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Cor 3:16-18)
That they are three distinct persons is seen at the baptism of Christ. The Son is baptized, the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove, and the Father speaks from Heaven.
You said:
The Syriac Peshitta is from the 2nd century and contains this verse:
Matthew 28:19 - Go therefore, disciple all nations, and baptize them in the name (of) the Father, and (of) the Son, and (of) the Spirit of Holiness.
OzSpen
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I don't deal with Scriptures with the JWs as they will go to the headquarters or the local organisation to get their interpretations of those Scriptures.
My questions - seeking JW answers - attempt to undermine their trust in the JW organisation.
Oz
OzSpen
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Why don't you answer my question to you? 'Out of whose mind did that teaching come?'
It's a fact ! don't you know it.
What are you rejecting about it, come on then tell me.
You can't kill God !
Everyone of the flesh dies, but the spirit never does die.
People who go to Heaven don't they and they never die their because it's for eternity.
People who go to Hell don't they and they never die because it's for eternity.
The wages of sin is death, why because it corrupts the Soul.
The Serpent said "ye shall not surely die...." he is a cunning tempter who was pointing to that tree will not kill your flesh and it did not but it eating of it did work to kill the Soul.
The Soul is more important than the flesh to God.
The RCC with Vatican II went down the path of the Serpent.
You are saying that Jesus is dead and that is blasphemy to the Holy Spirit.
If Jesus is dead as you say that means you reject the Holy Spirit.
Can you Pray to Jesus ?
Jesus is your mediator is he not, so you can get into Heaven, without him how are you going to get in.
Jesus is the one who says who are on his right side and them on his left, I thought it was he that will sort the sheep out from the goats.
Jesus is not dead he should live in your heart as one in the same Spirit and when you get baptised this is the start and the hope for you to be come born again of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is calling us to come home, to be Servants of God "Israel" and he is the King, it's his Kingdom, the Kingdome of God.
Enoch:
The non-primitive Syriac versions of the gospels were being refined from the 1st to the 4th centuries AD.
The actual Syriac Peshitta (simple version) gospels first came out as collection around 400 AD with the Trinity formula embedded although not until that time. Therefore, I disagree with your source. Also, the actual translations are not from primitive Aramaic. They are from the early Greek text!!
Also, the translations of these gospels into this form is not considered a reliable source by most scholars. Check it out. There were many other problems with the text besides what was written as Matt 28:19.
If you are using some text in print form or online for your source and it is called something like Syriac Aramaic Peshitta New Testament Bible, you have a corrupted version anyway.
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Now let’s lay aside for a moment the text in Matt 28:19 and focus on its meaning regarding baptism. I gather you are first and foremost interested in the meaning of scripture and how you were ‘saved’ in this case?
What does it mean to you to be baptized? For me I was saved with baptism into Jesus Christ, into the likeness of his spirit from the death brought about by sin to new life, everlasting life. It makes no sense for me to say or believe I was baptized into God and/or God’s spirit, none! It is Jesus Christ who I was baptized, into his type of spirit. I follow him through faith. God Almighty spirit has planted this Christ-like seed in me.
The apostles and disciples of course performed the act of converting others, with this mindset and spiritual disposition. To allow the Father and his spirit be part of the actual process of baptism would make the entire concept of baptism nonsensical. It would negate or lose the meaning of the work of Christ on the cross. Something to ponder over.
Let me finish by addressing the 3 points of yours.
First, I agree that God Almighty is the Father of Jesus and those he knows as true believers. That part was easy. I hope you also mean that God Almighty our Father is one and only, the ONLY creator of all things.
Second, Jesus cannot be God. I will just use your Hebrews 1: 8(9) for discussion.
In English we make a clear separation and distinction between ‘God’ and ‘god,’ right? Well in the early other language parchments there was no distinction. All symbols or letters were all written in uppercase with no spaces and commas etc. The translators had to be careful when they made their own language cuts. Unfortunately, most if not all translators were Trinitarians and biased as you are in making Jesus, God, for some reason.
There early written manuscripts were called “uncials,” and this style was very popular until the 9th century AD.
Now in the Bible we see that those in the service of God Almighty were called gods, right? Also, those with some type of rule over men. In the NT look at 2 Cor. 4:4; John 10:34 and 35; Acts 12:22 as examples.
Back to the Hebrews 1:8 again:
The word ‘theos’ is used here not to mean it is a reference to the Father. Great men are also called ‘god.’ The Septuagint has the word ‘theos’ for God Almighty, and also for men in places like in the OT like Psalm 82 where men represent God.
Now the trump card is the actual CONTEXT of Hebrews Chapter 1. In Hebrews the context is clear. Throughout the entire context from Hebrews 1:1, Christ is seen to be lesser than God the Father. Therefore, the use of “theos” here should be translated “god.”
So, in this cherry-picked verse of Hebrews 1:8 you presented me, it is a bust for trinity support, as in other verses you may conjure up.
Now for your final third point. If you really mean that the spirit or his holy spirit is God Almighty then I agree, as in your first point. Now in saying this I hope you don’t mean there is another personality called the Holy spirit. Then I would disagree with you. God is his own holy spirit and there is not another ‘floating’ around.
There is only one God Almighty that possess the only pure and holy spirit and one son of God, Jesus Christ that is never his Father.
Now let me look at the picture of Jesus’ baptism as you presented.
You do know that Jesus’ baptism was NOT the same as our baptism for conversion, it was much more!
First, Jesus never had to be baptized for conversion as you must already know. There was a dual purpose. He did it for our sakes and for his Father’s sake. By Jesus’ act of baptism, Jesus was agreeing to perform his Father’s work to the cross and beyond. That is why his Father was very pleased with his son and gave him his power that would strengthen and support him during his mission. His Father’s ‘full’ spirit was with him throughout, beside angels always administering to him from heaven to earth and back.
Now when you say “That they are three distinct persons is seen at the baptism of Christ. The Son is baptized, the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove, and the Father speaks from Heaven,” I hope you cannot see Jesus being his own Father and the spirit of God being another floating spirit separate from his own in this depiction?
Further, there are only two personalities as I’ve described already. Jesus, who is baptized by John and the intercession of his Father with his own spirit upon his son. Why make this scene so awkward? Maybe it is it to place a square peg called ‘trinity’ into a round hole called, the Father and Jesus only.
Bless you,
APAK
If this is really what you believe, then you have a major problem with your beliefs. You are actually denying what God affirms. Indeed you are contradicting God.
God our Father affirms he is greater than anyone and anything. He also glorified and exalted his son Jesus, above all in heaven including the angels except of course himself. This is what God affirms.
Enoch: You still have nothing from scripture to support your claim, except from myths and traditions of men. I would not rely on them myself. I believe the core area(s) of error comes from your OWN non-scriptural determination on HOW Jesus was born, WHY Jesus was born, and WHO Jesus represents. If one get this all wrong, one can believe in virtually any appealing fairy tale. Look to scripture and for meaning....
Bless you,
APAK
Triumph1300
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I would not rely on your statement either.
You can say al kinds of things, but backing it up with scripture is a different story.
And that counts for both opposing opinions.
@Triumph1300 ..I sense you do not like the scripture support or explanation I may have supplies already on this thread, or maybe others. If it was not evident already, I always use scripture as most cannot or are not willing to do the same. Do you want me to point to scripture verses for my last comment back to Enoch? That can be done quite easily don't you think? How say you about using scripture?
APAK
APAK
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
You sensed wrong.
I wasn't teaching or anything like that.
If I was I would back it up with scripture.
I said I don't rely on your statements.
Just like you also mentioned to Enoch.
Nobody should rely on statements.
There's to much of that flying around after it has been pulled out of a hat.
Let me know of the statements you want me to refine with scripture..
and thanks for clearing it up.
APAK
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