That's a GREAT point. - LOL
I guess I meant WHEN WRITTEN. (who were)
But my OP (4 posts deep - apologies) certainly supports the idea of the continuation of both apostles and prophets.
Every church should get a pair. - LOL
Who ARE "the prophets" in Ephesians 2:20?
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I guess I meant WHEN WRITTEN. (who were)
But my OP (4 posts deep - apologies) certainly supports the idea of the continuation of both apostles and prophets.
Every church should get a pair. - LOL
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Its correct its a past tense just like the bible says it is in Ephesians 2:20- God gave the Apostles/Prophets having been built upon ( par tense ) those Apostles/Prophets who are the foundation of the church- A foundation is the starting point, the beginning. There can be no other foundation but them in the past.
end of discussion- you are no prophet, no apostle.
the only apostle/prophet you can be according to scripture is a false one since the true one are in the past- just like there are false christs but the real Christ has already come 2000 years ago- there are no other real Christs just like there are no real prophets/apostles today- those ended with the 12.
hope this helps !!!
In I Corinthians 12 they are listed as body parts.
You don't want the Body of Christ to be an amputee, do you? - LOL
I Corinthians 12:27-31 NIV
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets,
third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance,
and of different kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[a]? Do all interpret?
31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. ...
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Thats because in the early church when 1 Cor was written there were Apostles/Prophets in the church at that time. Since Paul wrote about future events he would be considered a prophet since his writings in many places were prophetic in nature and in a secondary sence a prophet is one who proclaimed Gods truth/word with authority.
@ChristisGod
And the 14th chapter gives instructions for orderly worship.
Any prophets there?
1 Corinthians 14:29-32 NIV
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. ...
39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy,
and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
We need to evaluate your definition of prophecy. "hope this helps !!!" - LOL
1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Thayers Lexicon
The prophets that appeared in the apostolic age among the Christians: Matthew 10:41; Matthew 23:34; Acts 15:32; 1 Corinthians 14:29, 37; Revelation 22:6, 9; they are associated with apostles in Luke 11:49; 1 Corinthians 12:28, 29; Ephesians 2:20; Ephesians 3:5; Ephesians 4:11; Revelation 18:20; they discerned and did what was best for the Christian cause, Acts 13:1f; foretold certain future events, Acts 11:27; Acts 21:10ff; and in the religious assemblies of the Christians, being suddenly seized by the Spirit (whose promptings, however, do not impair their self-government, 1 Corinthians 14:32), give utterance in glowing and exalted but intelligible language to those things which the Holy Spirit teaches them, and which have power to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, stimulate, their hearers, 1 Corinthians 14:3, 24. (Cf. Harnack, Lehre der Zwölf Apostel, Proleg. § 5 i. 2, p. 93ff, 119ff; Bonwetsch in (Luthardt's) Zeitschr. f. kirchl. Wissen. as above with 1884, pp. 408ff, 460ff) g. Prophets both of the Old Testament and of the New Testament are grouped together under the name προφῆται in Revelation 11:18; Revelation 16:6; Revelation 18:24.
Thanks,
Seems to track with my definition from 1 Corinthians 14:3.
"... to instruct, comfort, encourage, rebuke, convict, stimulate, their hearers..."
1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Seems to track with your definition of WHAT Steve? You asked for a definition of "prophesy" from 'Christ is God'. He (?) gave a definition of what a "prophet" was....not prophesy. But what does scripture say?
1CO 14:31 For YE may ALL prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
YE means everyone, and the charismatic church of Corinth was, IMO, 100% tongue talking based upon;
1CO 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned (FUNDAMENTALIST), or unbelievers (UNSAVED), will they not say that ye are mad?
Therefore, getting back to your 1Cor 14:3 verse, I think it's fair to say Paul was speaking to ALL those who were Spirit baptized...who were gifted to...."prophesy". But I don't think that scripture supports 'YE MAY ALL BE PROPHETS'. I think that all prophets do prophesy but they have a brain talent t hat qualifies them to minister from the strength of not just 'prophesying' but also 'thinking' like a prophet. I do agree with you Steven,that there are prophets today. I personally don't believe most of them even know they were born with that gift, just as the rest of the 5-fold ministry doesn't know their soulish talents per say either. IOW, just how their particular brain was wired, when they were being knit together in the womb. Each of the 5-fold ministries bring a different 'mental' perspective to the table of leadership. And when the 'particular facet' of the five is heard, concerning whatever the church is dealing with, is when we get the best possible answer that can be had.
IOW, if someone in the congregation (who was not one of the 5-fold) prophesies a 'word' supposedly from God concerning....WHATEVER they say God is telling the church; then that 'word' needs to, ideally, pass the test of 5 different points of view. I hope this makes sense. Probably a new idea or thought for most here....I know it's new for me.
Very interesting, what you are saying about the 5-fold ministries being "soulish talents" they were born with.
That being, natural tendencies, or natural giftings then, if I am understanding you.
I have always viewed these natural tendencies as something separate from spiritual gifts (manifestations) of the Holy Spirit.
Knowing that some spiritual gifts (manifestations) do seem to track with how God has wired us.
The problem being (if it even is a problem), determining what is a natural gifting, and what is a spiritual gift (manifestation) of the Holy Spirit?
I have a pet peeve with these "Find Your Gift" classes that focus on natural talents as if they are spiritual gifts (manifestations) of the Holy Spirit.
How would know it was a spiritual gifts (manifestations) of the Holy Spirit, if it was already a natural ability they were born with?
face2face
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Personally I like how the "Prophets" speak to the OT covenant and the Apostles speak to the NT convenant and how both are One in Christ Jesus (but wait there is more!!).
We see this in their resurrection of them in Revelation 18:20:
The Rejoicing of the Redeemed
Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!” Re 18:20.
Now Heaven here is not talking about God's dwelling place but comprises the new form of government established by Christ and the Redeemed in Jerusalem. (You can look at Rev. 4:1 & Rev 16:21 also)
We have reference to three (3) groups here who have been raised from the dead, which means the resurrection has taken place and those who fit into those three groups "Saints", "Apostles" & "Prophets" get to witness this joyous occasion.
It appears to be as a result of the prayers of the Saints Rev 6:10 and while there is hundreds and hundreds of years between Rev 6 & 18 these prayers are never forgotten by God and answers them at the appropriate time.
So it is that the coming together of these three groups of people will witness the judgements poured out on the enemy of God in the earth at that time.
So consider for a moment how the Prophets, Apostles and Saints were killed for witnessing God's Word and how now they are brought together to witness judgements poured out on the Earth. In other words they will get to see their prayers answered at that time!
The enemy was responsible for the death of the Lord and the persecution of the Saints.
Much of this post will not be understood but I know a few in the forum who would...those of a contrite heart and whose ears hear what the Spirit teaches.
F2F
We see this in their resurrection of them in Revelation 18:20:
The Rejoicing of the Redeemed
Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!” Re 18:20.
Now Heaven here is not talking about God's dwelling place but comprises the new form of government established by Christ and the Redeemed in Jerusalem. (You can look at Rev. 4:1 & Rev 16:21 also)
We have reference to three (3) groups here who have been raised from the dead, which means the resurrection has taken place and those who fit into those three groups "Saints", "Apostles" & "Prophets" get to witness this joyous occasion.
It appears to be as a result of the prayers of the Saints Rev 6:10 and while there is hundreds and hundreds of years between Rev 6 & 18 these prayers are never forgotten by God and answers them at the appropriate time.
So it is that the coming together of these three groups of people will witness the judgements poured out on the enemy of God in the earth at that time.
So consider for a moment how the Prophets, Apostles and Saints were killed for witnessing God's Word and how now they are brought together to witness judgements poured out on the Earth. In other words they will get to see their prayers answered at that time!
The enemy was responsible for the death of the Lord and the persecution of the Saints.
Much of this post will not be understood but I know a few in the forum who would...those of a contrite heart and whose ears hear what the Spirit teaches.
F2F
New topic to check out. Are you in exile?
www.christianityboard.com
In exile from the church - disconnected from what?
Whether by personal decision, or being forced out, some (or many?) are exiled from the institution of the church. I did some quick research to see if there are any statistics on Christians leaving the church. Wanting to know if it really is just SOME, or if it is MANY. (probably many, but...)...
www.christianityboard.com
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I define 'spiritual gifts' from the Holy Spirit of God as separate from 'soulish (functioning brain) talents. I base this upon what scripture says concerning the prophet Jeremiah.
JER 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I SANCTIFIIED thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
In the womb a spirit isn't FORMED, a body of flesh is and then God gives that flesh a spirit which came from Him. My understanding, concerning the three-fold salvation of man goes like this; 'Justification' is the salvation of our spirit, SANCTIFICATION is the salvation of our SOUL (BRAIN functioning as mind will emotions), and 'glorification' is the salvation of our body of flesh. And I think the 5 fold ministry BRAINS think differently with each having a TALENT/perspective differing from each other.
Jeremiah was born as a triune human being. God "knew you" before you were born because the spirit He put in you "knoweth the things of a man".
1CO 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
I'm curious then. Just exactly which "spiritual gifts" do you see as 'tracking with how god has (hard) wired us? I say hard wired, because I'm thinking of the 'wiring' of the 'brain' and 'nervous system'. Both of which are 'flesh' and not 'soul' or 'spirit'....IMO.
I personally think that a spiritual gift defies 'natural ability' and falls under the category of 'supernatural ability'.
I think that Paul had the same problem that you are posing Steve. In Acts 16 a woman was going around declaring by supernatural "divination" the calling and purpose of Paul. What she said WAS TRUE. And that's what apparently Paul went with FOR MANY DAYS.
ACT 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come
Why did it take "many days" for Paul to become grieved? I believe it never happened until the Holy Spirit gave Paul the supernatural gift of "DISCERNING SPIRITS". That's just my take on this anyway.
I pasted a list from an article below.
Even the following paragraphs as a person to look at THEMSELVES to determine their giftings.
Which to me is natural abilities, not spiritual gifts.
But to answer your question, we certainly see people with natural abilities in Leadership, Administration, Teaching, Knowledge (as defined below), Wisdom (humanly speaking), Prophecy (as defined below), Discernment, Exhortation, Shepherding. Faith, Evangelism, Apostleship (as defined below), Service/Helps, Mercy, Giving, Hospitality.
I see all of these (as defined below) as being natural abilities, and not as spiritual gifts (manifestations) of the Holy Spirit.
The article clearly asks the reader to look to themselves to DISCOVER their "spiritual" gift. (something already given to them)
I don't even like the word "gifts" applied to this subject. I prefer manifestations. We don't own the manifestations, they own us.
We don't DISCOVER our "gifts" the Holy Spirit distributes them as he determines. And in my experience, they aren't always for us to KEEP.
I have manifested gifts for a one time use in the moment and never operated in that manifestation again. The key is to be open
to any manifestation God wants to use, rather than tell God, "That's NOT my gift."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Leadership: encouraging and helping others to build the kingdom of God (Romans 12:8 NIV)
Administration: helping with long term goals and remaining on task ( 1 Cor. 12:28 NIV)
Teaching: instructing in truths and doctrines of God’s Word
Knowledge: teaching and discipleship. The ability to learn, know and explain God’s Word
Wisdom: the ability to discern works of the Holy Spirit and apply teaching and actions
Prophecy: proclaiming the Word of God with boldness (Romans 12:6 NIV)
Discernment: being able to recognize the truth about a situation
Exhortation: people with this gift are enthusiastic about the Lord and they can motivate others
Shepherding: looking out for the spiritual welfare of others
Faith: trusting God to fulfill His plan. People with this gift are encouragers
Evangelism: the building up of the church so others will be led to Christ
Apostleship: motivators, church planters, missionaries: people who look beyond the walls
Service/Helps: helping those in need of practical assistance (Romans 12:7 NIV)
Mercy: The person with this gift shows acts of compassion
Giving: People with this gift will give freely and with joy to further His kingdom
Hospitality: Making people feel welcome, appreciated, and wanted (1 Peter 4:9 NIV)
Do you recognize your gift? Do you see more than one area where you feel gifted? Are you a Sunday School teacher, an Elder or Deacon in your church, a volunteer in the church office, or do you serve on the church prayer committee? Do you pray for others? These are different ways spiritual gifts are used to show His love and to bring people closer to Him.
Pray about your own spiritual gift. Ask God to help you recognize the special gift He has given you. Ask God to help you use your spiritual gifts to lead others to Him.
Blessings,
Melissa Henderson
Source
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I agree. I have seen too many "spiritual gift" tests that looked more like a 'soulish talent evaluation'....or psychological evaluation.
And the word for "gifts" concerning the five-fold ministers, is not 'charisma' in the Greek, it is 'doma'.
Unfortunately, too many churches seem to gravitate to the same evaluations also. I once had a fundamentalist patient who I fellow-shipped with as a sister in the Lord. One day she said; "Isn't it wonderful that God has given you the "gift of healing". I responded that; "I have the same teachings and degree as Dr. ??? (a professional peer of mine who practiced two doors west of my office) And he just ran off with his secretary and left his wife and two kids. I know him, and am pretty sure he isn't even saved." I just ended with that, and let her think about it. As a licensed doctor, I know the difference between 'natural healing', 'naturally SUPER healing and SUPERNATURAL healing.
AMEN Steven, my testimony is the same.
P.S. How do I get these posts to quote your user name at the top? I still struggle with this forum compared to our old stomping grounds.
@Hillsage
Like that?
Type @ and then begin typing my username.
A pull-down menu should appear. Select my username and it should turn blue, like yours above.
Then I will get an alert that I was mentioned.
@St < that's all you need.
My username is second on the list in the pull-down that pops up.
Maybe I should call it a pop-up instead of a pull-down. - LOL
I guess the pull-down pops up.
I seem to have a problem with over-explaining.
Maybe you meant like this example above? Two ways to do that.
1) Select the part of my post that you want to quote.
There should be a selection below the section with a choice between Quote or Reply
which looks like this > Quote | Reply
but is on a black background. Put your cursor over the option you want.
If you select "Quote" it saves your selection to multi-quote.
If you select "Reply" it starts a reply window with the quote inserted.
To use multi-quote you will need to click in the reply window and select "insert quotes" underneath the reply window.
Like this:
The second way is...
2) Select "+Quote" or "<Reply" at the bottom of my post window.
"+Quote" saves my entire post to multi-quotes.
"<Reply" starts a reply window with the quote inserted.
I hope that helps.
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