Who ARE "the prophets" in Ephesians 2:20?

[Hillsage]

That's interesting.
Does that mean "offices"?

Not really. I don't know that the five-fold ministries are "offices". Can you think of any scripture that says they are?

EPH 4:8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts/doma to men."
1390 doma: a present

EPH 4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,

The problem with verse 11 is this; "gifts" isn't in the Greek, but the addition isn't wrong IMO. And any time spiritual gifts is in scripture the word for gift is charisma

 

[St. SteVen]

Not really. I don't know that the five-fold ministries are "offices". Can you think of any scripture that says they are?

EPH 4:8 Therefore it is said, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts/doma to men."
1390 doma: a present

EPH 4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,

The problem with verse 11 is this; "gifts" isn't in the Greek, but the addition isn't wrong IMO. And any time spiritual gifts is in scripture the word for gift is charisma

So, some gifts aren't manifestations of the Holy Spirit?
Or, perhaps less direct? Tongues and prophecy work as if we are a conduit for the Spirit.
But some spiritual work is more of an outflow. A manifestation of our spirit yielded to God.
Sorry, thinking out loud here. Trying to sort it out.
And yes, the word offices does not appear in the Bible, But we treat it that way.
A Prophet has some stature in the church. Which in my view would make it an office.

 

[Hillsage]

So, some gifts aren't manifestations of the Holy Spirit?

I'd say that when I pray in tongues that it's a spiritual gift but it isn't the Holy Spirit of God manifesting.

Or, perhaps less direct? Tongues and prophecy work as if we are a conduit for the Spirit.

If you mean the 'gift of tongues' which is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit as in 1Cor 12, then I'd say yes. And as for prophecy??? again I'd say yes, I personally think that is us being a conduit for God to speak through us to others.

But some spiritual work is more of an outflow. A manifestation of our spirit yielded to God.
Sorry, thinking out loud here. Trying to sort it out.

As long as I can think out loud too, we're good.
And, IMO the "fruit of the spirit" is produced when we are led by the spirit of Christ in us to walk in righteousness. And, I believe that the spirit of Christ is A holy spirit.

And yes, the word offices does not appear in the Bible, But we treat it that way.
A Prophet has some stature in the church. Which in my view would make it an office.

Yes, "WE" treat a lot of things like they came from God, but don't appear in the bible.

 

[St. SteVen]

I'd say that when I pray in tongues that it's a spiritual gift but it isn't the Holy Spirit of God manifesting.

That's a good point.
It differentiates personal tongues from the gift of tongues. (a message for the church body)

Would you say the same thing about intercessory tongues?

Romans 8:26-27 NIV
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
We do not know what we ought to pray for,
but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit,
because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people
in accordance with the will of God.

/

 

[Hillsage]

That's a good point.
It differentiates personal tongues from the gift of tongues. (a message for the church body)

Would you say the same thing about intercessory tongues?

Romans 8:26-27 NIV
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
We do not know what we ought to pray for,
but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit,
because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people
in accordance with the will of God.

/

IMO "the Spirit" all 4 times above is talking about the born again spirit of Christ in us. I think the only time the Spirit of God is referred to is the "HE" in verse 27. The Spirit of God doesn't have to intercede to us for God, because HE...the Spirit of God...IS GOD.
The KJV, RSV, NIV all have "he" in the lower case.
The NKJ, YLT, NAS al have "He" in the upper case and I believe they do so correctly.

 

[St. SteVen]

IMO "the Spirit" all 4 times above is talking about the born again spirit of Christ in us. I think the only time the Spirit of God is referred to is the "HE" in verse 27. The Spirit of God doesn't have to intercede to us for God, because HE...the Spirit of God...IS GOD.
The KJV, RSV, NIV all have "he" in the lower case.
The NKJ, YLT, NAS al have "He" in the upper case and I believe they do so correctly.

Very interesting, thanks.
Would there be a rule of thumb that says that any time you see "the Spirit" it refers to the Spirit of Christ?
As opposed to when it says "the Holy Spirit" or "the Spirit of God"?
Probably not that cut and dried.

/

 

[Wick Stick]

IMO "the Spirit" all 4 times above is talking about the born again spirit of Christ in us. I think the only time the Spirit of God is referred to is the "HE" in verse 27.

Wait... are those different things? Isn't the Spirit of God the same as the Spirit of Christ?

I'm thinking of Ephesians 4:
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[Hillsage]

Very interesting, thanks.
Would there be a rule of thumb that says that any time you see "the Spirit" it refers to the Spirit of Christ?
As opposed to when it says "the Holy Spirit" or "the Spirit of God"?
Probably not that cut and dried.

/

I've quoted this reference before. Just read the comments from the SCHOLARS who wrote this GREEK INTERLINEAR ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT. Pay special attention to the blue text for the answer to your question.

ZONDERVAN PUBLISHING CO. 1972
Based on STEVENS GREEK TEXT

Introduction page iii

5. Capitals. The only remark needed here is in reference to the names of God, of Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. The greatest difficulty is touching the word ‘Spirit’. In some places it is very difficult to say whether the Holy Spirit as a person or the spirit of the Christian is referred to (see Rom. 8:9); and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word pneuma, in the Greek, persons would naturally have concluded that the question was thus indisputably settled. It was therefore judged best to put a small s in the Greek everywhere.

In the English we have been obliged to put a capital S when the Holy Spirit was referred to and so have retained it wherever WE THOUGHT this was the case; but in some places it is really doubtful, and becomes a question for the spiritual judgment of the reader.

The Greek will not help in the difficulty, because in the earliest copies every letter was a capital. In the other names we have followed the usage of modern editors; putting in the Greek a capital to Jesus but a small letter for Christ, and a small letter for Lord and for God.

 

[St. SteVen]

I've quoted this reference before. Just read the comments from the SCHOLARS who wrote this GREEK INTERLINEAR ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT. Pay special attention to the blue text for the answer to your question.

ZONDERVAN PUBLISHING CO. 1972
Based on STEVENS GREEK TEXT

Introduction page iii

5. Capitals. The only remark needed here is in reference to the names of God, of Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. The greatest difficulty is touching the word ‘Spirit’. In some places it is very difficult to say whether the Holy Spirit as a person or the spirit of the Christian is referred to (see Rom. 8:9); and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word pneuma, in the Greek, persons would naturally have concluded that the question was thus indisputably settled. It was therefore judged best to put a small s in the Greek everywhere.

In the English we have been obliged to put a capital S when the Holy Spirit was referred to and so have retained it wherever WE THOUGHT this was the case; but in some places it is really doubtful, and becomes a question for the spiritual judgment of the reader.

The Greek will not help in the difficulty, because in the earliest copies every letter was a capital. In the other names we have followed the usage of modern editors; putting in the Greek a capital to Jesus but a small letter for Christ, and a small letter for Lord and for God.

Thank you.
Nothing there about the Spirit of Christ. How do you determine that?

/

 

[Hillsage]

Thank you.
Nothing there about the Spirit of Christ. How do you determine that?

/

What did they just say? "becomes a question for the SPIRITUAL JUDGMENT of THE READER." IOW You are going to have to use YOUR SPIRITUAL JUDGMENT!!!! Because these FundaMENTAL Greek Scholar translators have admitted they don't even know the correct answer for when "spirit" "Spirit" "holy spirit", "holy Spirit", "Holy Spirit" "spirit of Christ" "Spirit of Christ" is correct capitalization. I'm just grateful I had an Interlinear Greek English book where they admitted that FACT. And just how many armchair forum theologians would even read the boring appendix of their big fat Interlinear theological books, to discover what I've just shared?

I have to admit Steve, as many times as I know you've read this explanation from me with the complete quote from the book, it 'appears' that you really never did understand what 'it and I' were trying to say all along. I hope this time you really can grasp just how big this point is. Because this point has the whole church more screwed up doctrinally than most can even imagine. IMO IMO. IMHO of course.

 

[quietthinker]

What did they just say? "becomes a question for the SPIRITUAL JUDGMENT of THE READER." IOW You are going to have to use YOUR SPIRITUAL JUDGMENT!!!! Because these FundaMENTAL Greek Scholar translators have admitted they don't even know the correct answer for when "spirit" "Spirit" "holy spirit", "holy Spirit", "Holy Spirit" "spirit of Christ" "Spirit of Christ" is correct capitalization. I'm just grateful I had an Interlinear Greek English book where they admitted that FACT. And just how many armchair forum theologians would even read the boring appendix of their big fat Interlinear theological books, to discover what I've just shared?

I have to admit Steve, as many times as I know you've read this explanation from me with the complete quote from the book, it 'appears' that you really never did understand what 'it and I' were trying to say all along. I hope this time you really can grasp just how big this point is. Because this point has the whole church more screwed up doctrinally than most can even imagine. IMO IMO. IMHO of course.

There once was in Greek, maybe even a geek
who pondered and wrote and thought
Then an Englishman came and did much the same
all while struggling and fuddling and fought.

 

[Hillsage]

Wait... are those different things? Isn't the Spirit of God the same as the Spirit of Christ?

I'm thinking of Ephesians 4:
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I believe they are different spirits. And I believe that Eph 4 is talking about the "one body" of Christ. A body which scripture says is 'many members'.

ROM 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

We have the same spirit in us, after our spirit is born again, that was in Jesus at his birth....the spirit of Christ.

1CO 6:17 But he who is united to the Lord (JESUS) becomes one spirit with him ( and that happens after we have the spirit of Christ in us).

Scripture doesn't say you were born again into the body of God. You are born again into the body of Christ and Jesus is the head of that body.

Jesus said :; JOH 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up...21 But he spoke of the temple of his body.

WE are that TEMPLE, and it is not your body or my body. We are; 1PE 2:5* and like living stones be yourselves built into A spiritual house,

And as the "living stones" which are a "spiritual house/temple" WE CORPORATELY, are that "household or temple" that the Holy Spirit of GOD dwells in.

EPH 2:19 So then you are.....members of the household of God, 20 ....Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 ..... for A dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Your thoughts? Or questions?

 

[St. SteVen]

I hope this time you really can grasp just how big this point is.

Here are a few obvious ones. I will start from there and work it out.

Romans 8:9 NIV
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh
but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

1 Peter 1:11 NIV
trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them
was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.


Philippians 1:19 NIV
for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ
what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.[a]

I saw a few more promising inroads. But I will begin by digesting this.

Context of Rom.8:9

Romans 8:9-11 NIV
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh
but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death
because of sin, the Spirit gives life[a] because of righteousness.
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you,
he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your
mortal bodies because of[b] his Spirit who lives in you.

/

 

[ScottA]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Continued from the previous post.

Let's review our key verse and take it from there.

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:20 NIV

Here are the questions we began with in the OP. (post #1)

Okay, so who are these apostles and prophets?
And what is the significance of the list order?

- Were there apostles other than the 12 Apostles? (capital A)
- Were there prophets other than the OT Prophets? (capital P)
- Were there prophets other than the OT Prophets in which the foundation of our faith was built?
As in, prophets that made a significant contribution to faith in Christ after the Apostles, and with the apostles. (small a)

We have answered the question about apostles.

We found references to the original 12, and Paul, and Barnabas, Andronicus and Junia as apostles.
Also found were reference to the office of apostle in the church, I would say EVERY church fellowship.
As part of the list of offices of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
Known as the five-fold ministry.

"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up" - Ephesians 4:11-12 NIV

We have exhausted the biblical references about apostles outside the 12 and Paul.
Or perhaps we have only exhausted me? - LOL

What about prophets in the New Testament. References to prophets other than the OT prophets.
We have already seen the office of prophet, along with apostles, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
But was anyone named as a prophet in the new testament? Let's check.

Jesus said this,

"“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing,
but inwardly they are ferocious wolves." - Matthew 7:15 NIV

If there are false prophets, we can assume that there are real prophets.

Here are more references that speak for themselves.

"Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes
a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward." - Matthew 10:41 NIV

"If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces.
9 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet." - Matthew 11:8-9 NIV

So, evidence here of New Testament prophets. John the Baptist being a named, or inferred prophet.
Now we can begin to name some New Testament prophets. (and other significant passages)

"There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher.
She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage," - Luke 2:36 NIV

"During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch." - Acts 11:27 NIV

"Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger,
Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul." - Acts 13:1 NIV

"They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos.
There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus," - Acts 13:6 NIV

"Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the believers." - Acts 15:32 NIV

"After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea." - Acts 21:10 NIV

"Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said." - 1 Corinthians 14:29 NIV

"The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets." - 1 Corinthians 14:32 NIV

"If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what
I am writing to you is the Lord’s command." - 1 Corinthians 14:37 NIV

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.
They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—
bringing swift destruction on themselves." - 2 Peter 2:1 NIV

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,
because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1 NIV

Again, please note that any reference to a FALSE prophet indicates that there are TRUE prophets.

So we have some named prophets found in our search. Anna, Barnabas, Simeon called Niger,
Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. Judas and Silas.

So, we do find both apostles beyond the 12 and Paul and prophets beyond the OT Prophets of old.

QUESTION: What do we suppose was the foundation which was built upon?

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:20 NIV

We see "apostles" and "prophets" through the grand lens of the scriptures as being bigger than life, while the words in the original language mean something great in one respect, but at the same time ultimately speak of those who are only human. By definition the original terms simply mean "those sent" and "those through whom God speaks." And with little research it should be known that those that are chosen are the least of men.

The use then of capital "A" or "P", is simply one of the writers, translators, and scribes as an expression of reverence...which we can be sure would not have been applied at all if the apostles and prophets were writing of themselves. All of whom have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

As for "the foundation which was built upon", Jesus answered, saying, "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Meaning that the foundation is not of men at all..."but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

 

[amigo de christo]

We see "apostles" and "prophets" through the grand lens of the scriptures as being bigger than life, while the words in the original language mean something great in one respect, but at the same time ultimately speak of those who are only human. By definition the original terms simply mean "those sent" and "those through whom God speaks." And with little research it should be known that those that are chosen are the least of men.

The use then of capital "A" or "P", is simply one of the writers, translators, and scribes as an expression of reverence...which we can be sure would not have been applied at all if the apostles and prophets were writing of themselves. All of whom have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

As for "the foundation which was built upon", Jesus answered, saying, "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Meaning that the foundation is not of men at all..."but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

Wolves in wool that desire the pre eminence of men , AINT GONNA LIKE what you just wrote . BUT , TRUE IT BE .
we aint the big kahuna at all . GOD IS , CHRIST IS . we are but saved by Grace and GOD giveth the gifts according to HIS own will
within the body . Yep . NOW HANDS UP , it be LORD PRAISING TIME in the building and round the world .
Cutting the legs off men who desire the show is a good thing . THey but men . just men . not GOD . not CHRIST , but just mere men .

 

[amigo de christo]

We see "apostles" and "prophets" through the grand lens of the scriptures as being bigger than life, while the words in the original language mean something great in one respect, but at the same time ultimately speak of those who are only human. By definition the original terms simply mean "those sent" and "those through whom God speaks." And with little research it should be known that those that are chosen are the least of men.

The use then of capital "A" or "P", is simply one of the writers, translators, and scribes as an expression of reverence...which we can be sure would not have been applied at all if the apostles and prophets were writing of themselves. All of whom have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

As for "the foundation which was built upon", Jesus answered, saying, "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Meaning that the foundation is not of men at all..."but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

Look at what else JESUS said . When speaking about john who pointed to CHRIST
he had told them I RECIEVE NOT THE TESTMONY OF man , but this i do say FOR YOUR SAKES .
FOlks today be acting like somehow man is the big kahuna . OH , NO HE AINT . GOD IS , CHRIST IS .
now lift those hands and let all that draws breath take a big ol bite of some humble pie and let us HONOR HE WHO SAVED US .
raise those hands scott . IT BE LORD PRAISING TIME in the building .

 

[St. SteVen]

I have to admit Steve, as many times as I know you've read this explanation from me with the complete quote from the book, it 'appears' that you really never did understand what 'it and I' were trying to say all along. I hope this time you really can grasp just how big this point is.

Sorry, I know we have been discussing this for years. I can be a bit thick-headed at times.
I view this as a difficult teaching. Maybe others would concur. ???

Discernment is a difficult thing to measure at times. Loud voice/quiet voice.

Perhaps I need to launch a topic on this. Topics are are like sketchpads for me sometimes.
Helps to codify things in my own mind when I write.

In search of the Spirit of Christ. Link below.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In search of the Spirit of Christ - how many Spirits/spirits are there?

A discussion about this began/continued on another topic. Who ARE "the prophets" in Ephesians 2:20? Warranted its own topic. This will be a bit of a sketchpad for anyone that wants to participate. I certainly don't have all the answers on this. Been discussing it for years. Even the Greek...

www.christianityboard.com

/

 

[St. SteVen]

We see "apostles" and "prophets" through the grand lens of the scriptures as being bigger than life, while the words in the original language mean something great in one respect, but at the same time ultimately speak of those who are only human. By definition the original terms simply mean "those sent" and "those through whom God speaks." And with little research it should be known that those that are chosen are the least of men.

The use then of capital "A" or "P", is simply one of the writers, translators, and scribes as an expression of reverence...which we can be sure would not have been applied at all if the apostles and prophets were writing of themselves. All of whom have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

As for "the foundation which was built upon", Jesus answered, saying, "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." Meaning that the foundation is not of men at all..."but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

Thanks for weighing in on this. Did you see post #4, my summary post. I listed the NT Apostles and Prophets that I found.

There were apostles other than the original 12 and the Apostle Paul.
We have the original 12, and Paul, and Barnabas, Andronicus and Junia as apostles.

Any more? There is a vague reference that Paul made referring to the whole Corinthian church as apostles.
The context seems to indicate a statement where Paul is including them.
Furthermore, the five-fold ministry puts an apostle in every church.

We have some named prophets found in our search. Anna, Barnabas, Simeon called Niger,
Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. Judas and Silas.
Furthermore, the five-fold ministry puts prophets in every church.

So, we do find both apostles beyond the 12 and Paul and prophets beyond the OT Prophets of old.

QUESTION: What do we suppose was the foundation which was built upon?

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:20 NIV

/

 

[ScottA]

QUESTION: What do we suppose was the foundation which was built upon?

"built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:20 NIV

Every word from the mouth of God...which would include the foundation, but also what is being built upon it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Every word from the mouth of God...which would include the foundation, but also what is being built upon it.

Do you recognize "prophetic" words from God as spoken of in 1 Corinthians chapters 12 to 14?

1 Corinthians 14:3 NIV
But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.

1 Corinthians 14:29 NIV
Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.

/