Who Created or Made a Sin Nature?

[MatthewG]

A good answer to the question here:

Romans 5:12-21
Amplified Bible

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power], because they all sinned. 13 Sin was [committed] in the world before the Law [was given], but sin is not charged [against anyone] when there is no law [against it]. 14 Yet death ruled [over mankind] from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who had not sinned as Adam did. Adam is a type of Him (Christ) who was to come [but in reverse—Adam brought destruction, Christ brought salvation].

15 But the free gift [of God] is not like the trespass [because the gift of grace overwhelms the fall of man]. For if many died by one man’s trespass [Adam’s sin], much more [abundantly] did God’s grace and the gift [that comes] by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to [benefit] the many. 16 Nor is the gift [of grace] like that which came through the one who sinned. For on the one hand the judgment [following the sin] resulted from one trespass and brought condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift resulted from many trespasses and brought justification [the release from sin’s penalty for those who believe]. 17 For if by the trespass of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one (Adam), much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in [eternal] life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For just as through one man’s disobedience [his failure to hear, his carelessness] the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous and acceptable to God and brought into right standing with Him. 20 But the Law came to increase and expand [the awareness of] the trespass [by defining and unmasking sin]. But where sin increased, [God’s remarkable, gracious gift of] grace [His unmerited favor] has surpassed it and increased all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness which brings eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[TedT]

And as the federal head of the human race, that state is acquired even from conception by all men, male and female alike.

An inherited state of sin from a federal head is anathema. It means someone is judged guilty and pays the price of sin by suffering and death who never chose to ever sin at all!! YET GOD IS LOVE!

Only by a free will decision to sin is anyone guilty for any sin! IF I force you to sin you are not guilty of sin, whether it is by a forced consequence of your birth into the life of a federal head or anything else.

GOD cannot create evil and to think that because HE dictates that sin is passed on by the federal head He is not creating sinners is so doublethink!

 

[PinSeeker]

NOT due to Adam's sin but due to their own free will choice to sin before the foundation of the world!

We disagree. Our free will ~ we do have one, of course ~ follows our nature, the state of our heart. You and I did not choose anything before the foundation of the world (as is the case with every other created being) because... we did not exist yet.

Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? If you are a son of GOD then this implies that you were there singing your heart out at this proof of HIS divinity and power,

Absolutely not. As John says, "...to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God..." (John 1:12). This implies that we once were not children of God ~ sons; our Father was not God ~ until we became believers. We certainly were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, as Paul says in Ephesians 1, but we were not yet made so until, at some point in our lives (long after the creation of the world and even we ourselves) we were born again of the Spirit, given new birth, which Jesus tells Nicodemus about in John 3. And for each of us, this happens when we ~ having been predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son ~ at some point in our lives are called by God (Romans 8:29-30), and faith is given to us through the working of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2:4-10)

Romans 1:18-20...could never, actually has never been achieved by the mere study of nature's wonders...

Right, it is all a work of God, because of Jesus, by His Holy Spirit. No man may boast, as Paul says in Ephesians 2. But the fact is that everything that can be known about God is evident in everything that has been made, so no one has any excuse, as Paul says in Romans 1. In that way, all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God (Psalm 98:3).

An inherited state of sin from a federal head is anathema.

To you. Yeah, I get it, and that's okay. But... I know you don't mean to be, but you're seeing at it from an entirely man-centered ~ humanistic ~ point of view. I wholeheartedly agree with you that God does not "create evil" or "dictate sin"... He is not the author of sin, as James puts it. That is the anathema. God is... Holy, Holy, Holy.

Grace and peace to you, Ted.

 

[robert derrick]

This creator was YHWH, the one true LIVING GOD.

Your yhwh creates sinners in the womb?

 

[robert derrick]

Our sin nature was not "given to us" or "placed upon us" in any way.

I.e. you are saying the answer is, that no one creates or makes a sin nature in the soul or natural seed of man.

It's just 'there'.

This is just reasoning that has no Scripture, and also makes something out of nothing, that isn't even made to exist.

The is something that exists in soul and flesh of man, that is not made at all to be there, much less by Christ.

Something exists with power to persuade men to sin from birth, but it's not made to exist: something unmade makes men sin.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If something exists, it must have been made by someone with power to do so: there is no 'there' there, that is not made and put there.

A only place that a sin nature exists at birth is in the imagination of natural minded theologians. And it began with the Jews, that refused to be corrected by the prophets:

They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

And continues with Christians, that refuse to be corrected by Jesus and the apostles.

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

 

[robert derrick]

The answer to the question is simple: Angels and men create and make their own sin, by abusing the power we are created with to do good like God, but instead choose to do evil of our own making.

The nature of sin is spiritual lust, that can be created in the hearts of spiritual beings made by Christ, because we are made with power to do so:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Angels and man have power to make their own lust, and so be enticed with temptation to sin against God, and once we sin, we die to God.

Being born again by Jesus Christ, is to become newborn babes once again with the divine power and nature to do good and please God, even as we all were first created in the image of God, beginning with Adam:

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[robert derrick]

HE is the GOD of all creation but the dead reject HIM as their God so HE can be considered to be not the GOD of the dead though HE created them.

HE created every person in HIS image, ie, perfectly able to be a Bride for HIM, with a free will* and an equal ability and opportunity to chose to put their faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and Saviour from sin or to to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god, the unforgivable sin, self created in the image of the devil as you mention.

*No marriage which is forced upon the bride without her free will agreement to the marriage is a real marriage.

No love can be forced upon a person but must be a free will response to the prospective lover by the beloved person.

YHWH is not a Borg to be satisfied by a Stepford wife...our free will with the ability to rebuke HIM and become demonic is an absolute necessity.

True. He does not create sin-filled souls dead to Him from birth.

He is not the Creator nor the God of the dead.

 

[robert derrick]

I don't know where you get your delusional ideas from. If I give you Scripture about a topic, that's not ME suggesting what the Scripture states.

Get it right.Negative. I rarely forget people or what we've discussed. It is on record if I need to look it up.
Not according to the Bible, Mr. Knows-it-all.

Your unrecognizable-to-you issue is that you're not right. And you don't align yourself with Scripture at all.

Many people here have issues with you because of how you interact.

A certain few dislike me because I am Rock-solid in my beliefs and I don't budge an inch, but there are also quite a number who do appreciate me for the same reasons.

I don't see any cordial qualities in you at all. All you do is argue and alienate people.

More power to ya. Clearly it's something that gives you contentment on some level, but nobody takes you very seriously because of it.

Yes, there are a few that take things personal, rather than being corrected.

As I've said several times, I appreciate you at least trying to come up with the one who creates a sin nature in little devils born from the womb.

I thought you first said the devil does that evil, and then tried saying God does it.

My bad.

 

[robert derrick]

It's about dominion and ownership robert.
In Romans 8:3 it's styled sin in the flesh or sinful flesh to mean our nature has a bias to sin and as such we die (Romans 6:23). Christ had the exact same nature as you. Accept or reject it - it doesn't matter because the Scripture is clear Hebrews 2:14-16.
F2F

True. The body of Jesus was just as naturally mortal as the first Adam, and the rest of us.

The only one that is biased to sin is a sinner, who learned to sin in time on earth, and turned the spiritual nature given their souls by Christ, into death apart from Christ.

Sins of the flesh is not the flesh's sins, but is the soul's sins by sinning with their flesh.

And some soul's sin against their own flesh by fornication.

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

 

[MatthewG]

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Thoughts?

 

[GEN2REV]

Yes, there are a few that take things personal, rather than being corrected.

As I've said several times, I appreciate you at least trying to come up with the one who creates a sin nature in little devils born from the womb.

I thought you first said the devil does that evil, and then tried saying God does it.

I merely pointed out Scripture for both of those possibilities.

Water under the bridge.

 

[robert derrick]

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Thoughts?

Yes. The translation is from interpretation, not from Scripture as written.

It's from the interpretive gospel of MatthewG.

 

[robert derrick]

A good answer to the question here:

Romans 5:12-21
Amplified Bible

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power], because they all sinned. 13 Sin was [committed] in the world before the Law [was given], but sin is not charged [against anyone] when there is no law [against it]. 14 Yet death ruled [over mankind] from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who had not sinned as Adam did. Adam is a type of Him (Christ) who was to come [but in reverse—Adam brought destruction, Christ brought salvation].

15 But the free gift [of God] is not like the trespass [because the gift of grace overwhelms the fall of man]. For if many died by one man’s trespass [Adam’s sin], much more [abundantly] did God’s grace and the gift [that comes] by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to [benefit] the many. 16 Nor is the gift [of grace] like that which came through the one who sinned. For on the one hand the judgment [following the sin] resulted from one trespass and brought condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift resulted from many trespasses and brought justification [the release from sin’s penalty for those who believe]. 17 For if by the trespass of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one (Adam), much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in [eternal] life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For just as through one man’s disobedience [his failure to hear, his carelessness] the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous and acceptable to God and brought into right standing with Him. 20 But the Law came to increase and expand [the awareness of] the trespass [by defining and unmasking sin]. But where sin increased, [God’s remarkable, gracious gift of] grace [His unmerited favor] has surpassed it and increased all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness which brings eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amplified Bible: A man translating the Bible into his own interpretation and gospel.

Here's some of mine:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death (of the soul) by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (and so died as Adam the very day they first sinned against God, and as Adam not before.)

Like it?

Here's more:

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law, (but whoso sins without the law, perishes without law.)

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression (being ignorant of God's commandment) who is the figure of him that was to come, (which is Adam after the flesh, and Moses after the Spirit.)

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift, (For the free gift of life by Christ is by birth, but the offense is not by birth, but by offence. ) For if through the offence of one many be dead (by sinning as that one), much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many (that believe and obey Him and are not sinning against Him as that old Adam and man did.)

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift (for the gift of faith is by grace, and the judgment of unbelief is by sinning): for the judgment was by one to condemnation (when any man sins he, all are condemned as he), but the free gift is of many offences unto justification (when any man repents and is forgiven and justified by Christ, no matter how many old sins were committed in the past.)

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners (who follow his sinful example by sinning), so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous (who walk in His steps by doing righteousness.)

I like this. Maybe I will write my own Bible too.

I.e. The answer is that like Lucifer, Adam, and all men that sin, we make ourselves sinners, by creating our own lust to sin against God, rather than do good with Him.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The lie has been that God creates man with sin at birth, and so God would be the tempter to sin.

 

[MatthewG]

Cool, thank you for sharing @robert derrick. It is good when the spirit guides.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes. The translation is from interpretation, not from Scripture as written.

It's from the interpretive gospel of MatthewG.

Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

1. The prayer is due to having sinned against God, man, and the law. Not because of being born a sinner.

2. Why would He that desires truth and wisdom in the inward parts of the soul, make souls with lies and sin?

3. Because Adam sinned and sinning entered into the world, it is now a word being made by sinners. All souls still come into the world lightened by Christ, even as Adam, but now it is a world of iniquity and sin, which Jesus also came into.

And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

David was not using that as an excuse, but only acknowledging the truth that men now come into a world of iniquity, and not the garden of God.

It's now a sinful world that all men as shapen and conceived in, including Jesus Christ when He came in the flesh.

Jesus was not shaped and conceived with sinfully.

Men read Scripture through the eyes of their interpretation, so that all Scripture pertaining it, is disputed on opposing sides of interpretation. The true interpretation will not be contradicted by any Scripture at all.

I no longer read any Scripture with the lie that Christ creates souls with sin, which I once believed, or that the flesh is sinful and sins on it's own volition, which I never was that messed up to believe, and so never tried to blame my body for my deeds.

My dad would have slapped me silly for insulting his intelligence. But there are obviously a few teachers that don't mind insulting the intelligence of the righteous and unbelievers alike.

 

[MatthewG]

@robert derrick you are entitled by your opinion as it is known by me that many people are going to come up with things they see in the bible and justify it by their own understanding, sometimes that understanding is by the holy spirit, however people need to be encouraged to search and see what scripture has to say when it comes to anything any us may bring forth, especially on the internet.

 

[robert derrick]

More proofs that man does not enter into the world sinful, but only that sin enters into the world by man sinning:

1. Jesus coming in the flesh, with the same flesh as any man by the seed of David, Abraham, and Adam, proves that the seed and flesh of man is not sinful, otherwise, Jesus would have been born a sinner like any other after Adam.

Even though He was conceived and born by a virgin, his body was still prepared for Him with the seed of man in the flesh of the woman's womb.

2.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.

Lucifer was created perfect, and yet he sinned by creating lust in his own heart against God. Adam was created perfect and raised in the garden of God, and he still sinned like Lucifer from lust in his own heart.

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

And so all men has sinned by sinning from receiving lust into their own hearts, and spiritual death only passes upon the soul by sinning.

Jesus Christ came in the same flesh as us all, into a world full of iniquity, and yet did not sin.

Sinning comes by lust of one's own, not by birth into the world.


3. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift, For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Only life by Christ is a free gift to every soul at creation, and when born again after sinning on earth.

A sin nature is not the free gift of Christ given to all souls at birth.

Offense is only given by offending. It is not given as a gift, while doing nothing to earn it.

Sin is an act that earns the wage of death. No babe in the womb has earned any wages at all.

To say that sin is in the soul at creation, is to say that every created soul has already earned the wage of death.

Sin and death is not a gift, but an act that earns wages.

 

[robert derrick]

@robert derrick you are entitled by your opinion as it is known by me that many people are going to come up with things they see in the bible and justify it by their own understanding, sometimes that understanding is by the holy spirit, however people need to be encouraged to search and see what scripture has to say when it comes to anything any us may bring forth, especially on the internet.

It's true anywhere at any time. Which is good, unless of course someone has a set mind, and will not be corrected.

I have been corrected here several times for the good, including this sin nature at birth garbage. Some refuse correction, and so after the first or second admonition in any point, we move on.

That's how it works.

 

[MatthewG]

It's true anywhere at any time. Which is good, unless of course someone has a set mind, and will not be corrected.

I have been corrected here several times for the good, including this sin nature at birth garbage. Some refuse correction, and so after the first or second admonition in any point, we move on.

That's how it works.

God has corrected me by his spirit too. I’ll tell you I use to be a self absorbed person who looked at everyone as a sinner and they didn’t read their bible like me or pray like me. God got me away from that old mindset where I was very much an ass. Still am I jackass sometimes, it’s a fault of my nature. This flesh needs to be died too. It’s up to people to seek and read the Bible and really learn what it say to get a really good foundation standing on the Rock that is Christ.




This all I’ve learned about these things in the Bible which comes from Paul, my encouragement is for people to ask God about these things he will give them wisdom to understand.

“So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit. Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God. The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you. Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭14‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[MatthewG]

God has corrected me by his spirit too. I’ll tell you I use to be a self absorbed person who looked at everyone as a sinner and they didn’t read their bible like me or pray like me. God got me away from that old mindset where I was very much an ass. Still am I jackass sometimes, it’s a fault of my nature. This flesh needs to be died too. It’s up to people to seek and read the Bible and really learn what it say to get a really good foundation standing on the Rock that is Christ.





This all I’ve learned about these things in the Bible which comes from Paul, my encouragement is for people to ask God about these things he will give them wisdom to understand.

“So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit. Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace. For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God. But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.) And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God. The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you. Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭14‬ ‭NLT‬‬

What is amazing is though we are naturally evil at youth, God has people out there to teach and lead towards the light that leads to a renewed mind in the heavenly aspects knowing on is secure by faith in the hope of Christ which brings forth new life in dying to the old one without God being in it.

“And the LORD was pleased with the aroma of the sacrifice and said to himself, “I will never again curse the ground because of the human race, even though everything they think or imagine is bent toward evil from childhood. I will never again destroy all living things. As long as the earth remains, there will be planting and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭8‬:‭21‬-‭22‬ ‭NLT‬‬