Who Created or Made a Sin Nature?

[Blue Dragonfly's]

No... No, Hebrews 1:3 was and is not false. :)


Those are very interesting and compelling statements, Blue Dragonfly. Really, this is just a very difficult thing to wrap one's mind around. One thing is certain and beyond debate. Jesus never committed an act of sin. The sinless life of Jesus is absolutely essential for His capacity to serve as our sacrificial substitute, an atoning death in which He was not dying for His own transgressions but for ours (2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15). I'm sure we will agree on that.

OK

I (and others who think along the same lines as I do) do not discount ~ at all ~ Jesus's also possessing in full the same deific nature as the Father and the Spirit. You may not be, but you certainly seem to be either discounting that or soft-pedaling it to some degree. You obviously agree that Jesus did possess in full the same deific nature as the Father and the Spirit, but still... That's what seems to be the case.

Only when you ignore what was in my posts wherein I talk about Jesus divine nature being incompatable with what you and others insist is his human sin nature.

And it is, of course, 100% true. But again, I would point out the following relevant Scriptures (not an exhaustive list):

• "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)
• "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4)
• "...Christ Jesus... was in the form of God... but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men." (Philippians 2:5-8)

• I know Jesus was God. I've said that all along. Those passages need speak to those who blaspheme the holy spirit indwelling Jesus whom you and others who feel as you do, and push an unbiblical blasphemy that insists Jesus has a sinful nature.

I appreciative of your passionate defense of your position, Blue Dragonfly, and I can see how you would say that, but what you say here is not true. Even if you say it's an unintended consequence of making that claim... but you don't; you say precisely the opposite, that you "think that's (our) point, and (we) don't care," that we "simply like to cast aspirations against Christ, cladding blasphemy as your Exegesis," which is quite a graceless statement and totally ridiculous ...it's just not true. Here's what I'll leave off with the following:

In the one person of Christ are united a true human nature and a true divine nature without confusion, mixture, division, or separation. In other words, when the Son of God, Who from all eternity possessed the divine nature, added to Himself a human nature, each nature retained its own attributes. The divine nature did not become human and the human nature did not become divine. Neither were the natures mixed together such that Christ was a strange human-divine hybrid, neither truly human nor truly divine. No, Christ was and remains the God-man. This is a mystery we cannot fully comprehend, but we must affirm it. Having said this...

• If Christ is not truly human, He cannot atone for our sin, for only a human being can atone for the sin of other human beings.
• If Christ is not truly God, the atonement He offers does not have sufficient value to be applied to all the elect.
• If Christ is not the God-man, there is no salvation.

Grace and peace to you.

Anyone who insists Jesus had a ''sin nature'' are corrupting God's words.

When Jesus was made in the image of sinful flesh, meaning he,the holy spirit, manifest himself in the form of a human male to deliver his new covenant of salvation to the world, that doesn't mean he had a fallen nature too.


Insisting God had to obey the rules that pertain to human birth and our being born with a worldly [sin] nature, is again denying the divinity of God and Jesus.That's blasphemy of God's holy creative spirit.

You'll never be right insisting Jesus had a sin nature, he just didn't sin. Never.

Never will you be correct because scripture calls you wrong. You all ignore that at your peril.

Because we who are mortal and are destined to sin because of our worldly nature die. Even as repentant holy spirit indwelt Christians.

Jesus didn't die. Because God cannot be killed.
Jesus resurrected on the third day in his glorified body.

When we died in first century, that didn't happen.

The Jesus you and others who think like you do is not the Christ.

As soon as you insist Jesus had a sin/sinful nature,when Jesus was the divine holy spirit in flesh you lose your argument as pertains to the Christ of our faith.

Our Jesus is not mocked.
Your invention, a sin nature jesus never existed.
The divine nature does not share space with the fallen one.

My passionate defense of scripture? You bet.

Christians are to stand against the slings and arrows of the enemy.
While later after those have blasphemed God's holy spirit will answer beyond their efforts to corrupt the truth of God in Christ.

God in Christ = No ''sin nature'' possible.

 

[Angelina]

People keep trying to tell how a sin nature was put into man, with a process for which man is now born with it.

But no one has ever said who did so. Until we have a creator and maker of something new, then there is no such thing that actually exists.

Except in the imagination of people.

Romans 5 AMP
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power], because they all sinned. 13 Sin was [committed] in the world before the Law [was given], but sin is not charged [against anyone] when there is no law [against it].

At one time, the law was not counted against people who sinned because the law had not yet became a reality....This however, did not stop people dying, from Adam to Moses and from generation to generation , all to way up to us today...

14 Yet death ruled [over mankind] from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who had not sinned as Adam did. Adam is a type of Him (Christ) who was to come [but in reverse—Adam brought destruction, Christ brought salvation].

The bible tells that:
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin [by which it brings death] is the law;

Sin does exist. The outcome of sin is death. Mankind is still dying. This is not our imagination...however, when believers do die, we are assured that we are not going to be part of the second death and we will be living with Jesus in his kingdom forever.

So we can conclude that if sin did not exist, we would no-longer die. :)

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He appeared to be a man.

And so we see how the effort to believe all men, except Jesus, has flesh with sin nature, leads to a type of gnosticism, who said Jesus was only a spirit walking around in the appearance of a man, but not really come in the flesh.

You are doing the same by making Jesus the man differently bodily, as well as spiritually, from all other men since Adam.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Jesus' body was made of the same seed and flesh as all men: The seed of David in Mary's flesh. He was a man bodily like everyone else on earth.

And Jesus body on earth today, the church, is now His flesh and bones.

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

People keep trying to tell how a sin nature was put into man, with a process for which man is now born with it.

But no one has ever said who did so. Until we have a creator and maker of something new, then there is no such thing that actually exists.

Except in the imagination of people.

Scripture says at Psalm 51:5, "I was born guilty of error, and sinful from the moment my mother conceived me.”

Sin has had a devastating effect on humans.
It has not only damaged thhuman race relationship with our Creator but also put the human race out of harmony with the rest of God’s creation. That has resulted in enormous suffering, both to individuals and to the human race as a whole.

Romans 7:21-25 says, "I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law."

Much of our suffering results from our sinful nature, which both good and bad people have inherited. That sinful nature contributes to physical and mental disorders as well as traits that cause people to harm one another.

In Paul’s letter to the Romans and in several other letters, he uses ka·tal·lasʹso and a·po·ka·tal·lasʹso, in dealing with man’s being reconciled to God by means of the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

Such reconciliation to God is necessary because an alienation has existed, a separation, a lack of harmony and of friendly relations, more than that, a state of enmity. This came through the first man Adam’s sin and the resultant sinfulness and imperfection inherited by all his descendants. (Romans 5:12; Isaiah 43:27.) The apostle could therefore say that “the minding of the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not under subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be (due to its inherited imperfect, sinful nature). So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.” (Roman 8:7, 8) Enmity exists because God’s perfect standards do not allow for his approving or condoning wrongdoing. (Psalm 5:4; 89:14) Of his Son, who reflected his Father’s perfect qualities, it is written: “You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness.” (Hebrew 1:9) Hence, even though “God is love” and even though “God loved the world of mankind so much that he gave his only-begotten Son” on mankind’s behalf, the fact remains that mankind as a whole has been in a state of enmity toward God and that God’s love toward the world of mankind was love toward enemies, a love guided by principle (a·gaʹpe) rather than affection or friendship (phi·liʹa).(1John 4:16; John 3:16; James 4:4)

 

[robert derrick]

Romans 5 AMP
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power], because they all sinned. 13 Sin was [committed] in the world before the Law [was given], but sin is not charged [against anyone] when there is no law [against it].

At one time, the law was not counted against people who sinned because the law had not yet became a reality....This however, did not stop people dying, from Adam to Moses and from generation to generation , all to way up to us today...

14 Yet death ruled [over mankind] from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who had not sinned as Adam did. Adam is a type of Him (Christ) who was to come [but in reverse—Adam brought destruction, Christ brought salvation].

The bible tells that:
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin [by which it brings death] is the law;

Sin does exist. The outcome of sin is death. Mankind is still dying. This is not our imagination...however, when believers do die, we are assured that we are not going to be part of the second death and we will be living with Jesus in his kingdom forever.

So we can conclude that if sin did not exist, we would no-longer die. :)

No one is arguing against sin having entered into the world by man sinning, and so death passes upon all men when they sin, whether with or without the law.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.

The objection is to sin entering into man's natural seed and flesh, to compel men to sin from birth, which is not what Scripture is saying.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

And so the question is, who is now making man's flesh in the womb full of sin? Christ? The devil? man?

Is there another power or spirit than Christ, that is now making and creating man with sin-filled flesh?

Or is Christ still forming man in the womb, but is now making man's flesh with sin in it, that tempts man to sin from the womb? If so, then Christ is the tempter of men to sin:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

Scripture rebukes this accusation against Christ, which is made by those who say God is unjust to judge man, since Christ makes man with a sin nature for sinning.

So far, no one can seem to even acknowledge the point, no matter how many times I have tried to keep the thread on track.

I no longer argue the endless debate of whether man's flesh has sin in it from birth: I just want to know who is making our bodies that way, if not Christ.

 

[PinSeeker]

Only when you ignore what was in my posts wherein I talk about Jesus divine nature being incompatable with what you and others insist is his human sin nature.

Okay, well, I didn't ignore anything you have said, Blue Dragonfly. Nothing. And I don't disagree with you that Jesus's divine nature is incompatible His human sin nature. As you may recall from my last post, I said, "In the one person of Christ are united a true human nature and a true divine nature without confusion, mixture, division, or separation... when the Son of God, Who from all eternity possessed the divine nature, added to Himself a human nature, each nature retained its own attributes." So, Christ had, during His time on earth, both a deific nature (because He is God) and a sinful human nature (because He was human. And being God, He was able to perfectly overcome His human nature. He did this to fulfill the Law, and, though innocent, was made to be sin: "(f)or our sake (God) made (Jesus) to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in (Jesus) we might become the righteousness of God" (Paul, 2 Corinthians 5:21). This is the Gospel.

I know Jesus was God. I've said that all along.

Sure. Well aware. Good.

Those passages need speak to those who blaspheme the holy spirit indwelling Jesus whom you and others who feel as you do, and push an unbiblical blasphemy that insists Jesus has a sinful nature.

Okay, well, I respect your position, but I disagree.

Anyone who insists Jesus had a ''sin nature'' are corrupting God's words.

Okay, again, I respect your position, but I disagree. I believe quite the opposite ~ minus the 'corrupting' accusation, as that seems lacking in grace ~ but something more along the lines of not comprehending correctly. Yes, as the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 1:3, Jesus "is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature," for sure. is the image of the invisible God

When Jesus was made in the image of sinful flesh, meaning he, the holy spirit, manifest himself in the form of a human male to deliver his new covenant of salvation to the world, that doesn't mean he had a fallen nature too.

Okay, so this statement raises several different questions in my mind:

• What do you think it "in the image of sinful flesh" means? I assume you are referring to Romans 8:3 ("in the likeness of sinful flesh") and/or Philippians 2:7 ("taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men").
• This seems a contradiction in and of itself. You acknowledge that he was in the form of a human male, 'in the form of' is the English phrase that comes from the Greek 'morphe,' used specifically by Paul in Philippians 2, which means exactly the same as the thing itself, so He was made man in every way., but then you maintain that His nature was entirely different. Both are true, actually, but you exclude the former, that He was made man in every way, albeit perhaps unintentionally, but it is what it is.
• And third, this is somewhat unrelated to the previous two questions, but do you not believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two separate persons?

Insisting God had to obey the rules that pertain to human birth and our being born with a worldly [sin] nature, is again denying the divinity of God and Jesus. That's blasphemy of God's holy creative spirit.

Okay, the "obey the rules" thing seems a bit silly, but I get (I think) what you mean. Aside from that, I disagree with both statements here, that it is in any way "denying the divinity of God and Jesus" or "blasphemy of God's holy creative spirit."

You'll never be right insisting Jesus had a sin nature, he just didn't sin.

These are two different things; it is possible for one to overcome his/her nature at least temporarily, and this is especially true for Jesus, Who also possessed the same fully deific nature of both the Father and the Holy Spirit. Again, as Paul says in Philippians 2, Jesus was both fully God ~ in the form of (Greek 'morphe') and fully man ~ also in the form of (Greek 'morphe') at the same time.

I don't mean to kill you with this, but I quoted a short time ago from the Chalcedonian Creed (A.D. 451):

"Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.​

And here is the Westminster Confession of Faith, Sec. 2, Ch. 8 (A.D. 1647):

The Son of God, the second person in the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father, did, when the fulness of time was come, take upon Him man's nature,(1) with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin;(2) being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, of her substance.(3) So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion.(4) Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.(5) (1) Jn 1:1,14; 1Jn 5:20; Php 2:6; Gal 4:4 (2) Heb 2:14,16,17; Heb 4:15 (3) Lk 1:27,31,35; Gal 4:4 (4) Lk 1:35; Col 2:9; Ro 9:5; 1Pe 3:18; 1Ti 3:16 (5) Ro 1:3,4; 1Ti 2:5​

And now the Belgic Confession, Article 19 (A.D. 1561):

The Two Natures of Christ: We believe that by being thus conceived the person of the Son has been inseparably united and joined together with human nature, in such a way that there are not two Sons of God, nor two persons, but two natures united in a single person, with each nature retaining its own distinct properties. Thus his divine nature has always remained uncreated, without beginning of days or end of life,(45) filling heaven and earth. Christ's human nature has not lost its properties but continues to have those of a creature—it has a beginning of days; it is of a finite nature and retains all that belongs to a real body. And even though he, by his resurrection, gave it immortality, that nonetheless did not change the reality of his human nature; for our salvation and resurrection depend also on the reality of his body. But these two natures are so united together in one person that they are not even separated by his death. So then, what he committed to his Father when he died was a real human spirit which left his body. But meanwhile his divine nature remained united with his human nature even when he was lying in the grave; and his deity never ceased to be in him, just as it was in him when he was a little child, though for a while it did not so reveal itself. These are the reasons why we confess him to be true God and truly human—true God in order to conquer death by his power, and truly human that he might die for us in the weakness of his flesh. (45) Heb. 7:3​

Jesus didn't die.

Ah, so are saying here that you don't believe He actually died when He was crucified? If so, then you are necessarily also saying that Jesus couldn't have actually been resurrected, and to this, Paul says "(i)f in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." Such a belief would be totally antithetical to God's Word. But if you say that you do believe He actually died when He was crucified, then you are refuting what you yourself have said.

As soon as you insist Jesus had a sin/sinful nature, when Jesus was the divine holy spirit in flesh you lose your argument as pertains to the Christ of our faith.

This is your opinion, and I well understand it. I think we better stop.

Our Jesus is not mocked.

Not successfully, no. :) And not without consequence. Sure.

Grace and peace to you.

P.S. I... can't believe I just "liked" one of RobertDerrick's posts... :)

 

[robert derrick]

Scripture says at Psalm 51:5, "I was born guilty of error, and sinful from the moment my mother conceived me.”

Sin has had a devastating effect on humans.
It has not only damaged thhuman race relationship with our Creator but also put the human race out of harmony with the rest of God’s creation. That has resulted in enormous suffering, both to individuals and to the human race as a whole.

Romans 7:21-25 says, "I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law."

Much of our suffering results from our sinful nature, which both good and bad people have inherited. That sinful nature contributes to physical and mental disorders as well as traits that cause people to harm one another.

In Paul’s letter to the Romans and in several other letters, he uses ka·tal·lasʹso and a·po·ka·tal·lasʹso, in dealing with man’s being reconciled to God by means of the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

Such reconciliation to God is necessary because an alienation has existed, a separation, a lack of harmony and of friendly relations, more than that, a state of enmity. This came through the first man Adam’s sin and the resultant sinfulness and imperfection inherited by all his descendants. (Romans 5:12; Isaiah 43:27.) The apostle could therefore say that “the minding of the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not under subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be (due to its inherited imperfect, sinful nature). So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.” (Roman 8:7, 8) Enmity exists because God’s perfect standards do not allow for his approving or condoning wrongdoing. (Psalm 5:4; 89:14) Of his Son, who reflected his Father’s perfect qualities, it is written: “You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness.” (Hebrew 1:9) Hence, even though “God is love” and even though “God loved the world of mankind so much that he gave his only-begotten Son” on mankind’s behalf, the fact remains that mankind as a whole has been in a state of enmity toward God and that God’s love toward the world of mankind was love toward enemies, a love guided by principle (a·gaʹpe) rather than affection or friendship (phi·liʹa).(1John 4:16; John 3:16; James 4:4)

The question of the thread is who is now making man in the womb with sin nature. Who is now forming man in the womb full of sin in the flesh?

Christ? the devil? man? No one?

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

And so we see how the effort to believe all men, except Jesus, has flesh with sin nature, leads to a type of gnosticism, who said Jesus was only a spirit walking around in the appearance of a man, but not really come in the flesh.

You are doing the same by making Jesus the man differently bodily, as well as spiritually, from all other men since Adam.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Jesus' body was made of the same seed and flesh as all men: The seed of David in Mary's flesh. He was a man bodily like everyone else on earth.

And Jesus body on earth today, the church, is now His flesh and bones.

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

And so we see how the effort to believe all men, except Jesus, has flesh with sin nature, leads to a type of gnosticism, who said Jesus was only a spirit walking around in the appearance of a man, but not really come in the flesh.

You are doing the same by making Jesus the man differently bodily, as well as spiritually, from all other men since Adam.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Jesus' body was made of the same seed and flesh as all men: The seed of David in Mary's flesh. He was a man bodily like everyone else on earth.

And Jesus body on earth today, the church, is now His flesh and bones.

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

What the Bible says about Jesus as God in the Flesh

Jesus was God. Immanuel. ''God with us''. The word made flesh who dwelt among us.
John 1

Perfect and with a divine nature. Hebrews 1
The unblemished Lamb.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Okay, well, I didn't ignore anything you have said, Blue Dragonfly. Nothing. And I don't disagree with you that Jesus's divine nature is incompatible His human sin nature. As you may recall from my last post, I said, "In the one person of Christ are united a true human nature and a true divine nature without confusion, mixture, division, or separation... when the Son of God, Who from all eternity possessed the divine nature, added to Himself a human nature, each nature retained its own attributes." So, Christ had, during His time on earth, both a deific nature (because He is God) and a sinful human nature (because He was human. And being God, He was able to perfectly overcome His human nature. He did this to fulfill the Law, and, though innocent, was made to be sin: "(f)or our sake (God) made (Jesus) to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in (Jesus) we might become the righteousness of God" (Paul, 2 Corinthians 5:21). This is the Gospel.


Sure. Well aware. Good.


Okay, well, I respect your position, but I disagree.


Okay, again, I respect your position, but I disagree. I believe quite the opposite ~ minus the 'corrupting' accusation, as that seems lacking in grace ~ but something more along the lines of not comprehending correctly. Yes, as the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 1:3, Jesus "is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature," for sure. is the image of the invisible God


Okay, so this statement raises several different questions in my mind:

• What do you think it "in the image of sinful flesh" means? I assume you are referring to Romans 8:3 ("in the likeness of sinful flesh") and/or Philippians 2:7 ("taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men").
• This seems a contradiction in and of itself. You acknowledge that he was in the form of a human male, 'in the form of' is the English phrase that comes from the Greek 'morphe,' used specifically by Paul in Philippians 2, which means exactly the same as the thing itself, so He was made man in every way., but then you maintain that His nature was entirely different. Both are true, actually, but you exclude the former, that He was made man in every way, albeit perhaps unintentionally, but it is what it is.
• And third, this is somewhat unrelated to the previous two questions, but do you not believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two separate persons?

Okay, the "obey the rules" thing seems a bit silly, but I get (I think) what you mean. Aside from that, I disagree with both statements here, that it is in any way "denying the divinity of God and Jesus" or "blasphemy of God's holy creative spirit."


These are two different things; it is possible for one to overcome his/her nature at least temporarily, and this is especially true for Jesus, Who also possessed the same fully deific nature of both the Father and the Holy Spirit. Again, as Paul says in Philippians 2, Jesus was both fully God ~ in the form of (Greek 'morphe') and fully man ~ also in the form of (Greek 'morphe') at the same time.

I don't mean to kill you with this, but I quoted a short time ago from the Chalcedonian Creed (A.D. 451):

"Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.​

And here is the Westminster Confession of Faith, Sec. 2, Ch. 8 (A.D. 1647):

The Son of God, the second person in the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father, did, when the fulness of time was come, take upon Him man's nature,(1) with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin;(2) being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, of her substance.(3) So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion.(4) Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.(5) (1) Jn 1:1,14; 1Jn 5:20; Php 2:6; Gal 4:4 (2) Heb 2:14,16,17; Heb 4:15 (3) Lk 1:27,31,35; Gal 4:4 (4) Lk 1:35; Col 2:9; Ro 9:5; 1Pe 3:18; 1Ti 3:16 (5) Ro 1:3,4; 1Ti 2:5​

And now the Belgic Confession, Article 19 (A.D. 1561):

The Two Natures of Christ: We believe that by being thus conceived the person of the Son has been inseparably united and joined together with human nature, in such a way that there are not two Sons of God, nor two persons, but two natures united in a single person, with each nature retaining its own distinct properties. Thus his divine nature has always remained uncreated, without beginning of days or end of life,(45) filling heaven and earth. Christ's human nature has not lost its properties but continues to have those of a creature—it has a beginning of days; it is of a finite nature and retains all that belongs to a real body. And even though he, by his resurrection, gave it immortality, that nonetheless did not change the reality of his human nature; for our salvation and resurrection depend also on the reality of his body. But these two natures are so united together in one person that they are not even separated by his death. So then, what he committed to his Father when he died was a real human spirit which left his body. But meanwhile his divine nature remained united with his human nature even when he was lying in the grave; and his deity never ceased to be in him, just as it was in him when he was a little child, though for a while it did not so reveal itself. These are the reasons why we confess him to be true God and truly human—true God in order to conquer death by his power, and truly human that he might die for us in the weakness of his flesh. (45) Heb. 7:3​

Ah, so are saying here that you don't believe He actually died when He was crucified? If so, then you are necessarily also saying that Jesus couldn't have actually been resurrected, and to this, Paul says "(i)f in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." Such a belief would be totally antithetical to God's Word. But if you say that you do believe He actually died when He was crucified, then you are refuting what you yourself have said.


This is your opinion, and I well understand it. I think we better stop.


Not successfully, no. :) And not without consequence. Sure.

Grace and peace to you.

P.S. I... can't believe I just "liked" one of RobertDerrick's posts... :)

No you don't understand my opinion that is informed by the Bible.
Defending Christ's divine nature isn't lacking in grace

Those who insist Jesus had to be exactly like humans because he was God come in the flesh lack the knowledge of God's word as it informs those in his light. That's not an opinion, that's scripture.

Everything that rebukes those who blaspheme God's holy spirit by saying Jesus divine nature was sharing space with a sin nature because he was God in flesh are pushing an unbiblical pretentious false teaching of man. Not God.

Disagree.
That's obvious when proponents of their demigod construct corrupt God's word to sustain their allegiant church's false doctrine.

Yes, better to end this, as God says.

1 Timothy 1:8-10 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

 

[PinSeeker]

No you don't understand my opinion that is informed by the Bible.

Well, I was calling for a bit of clarification on what you do in fact believe, because your statements were ambiguous. And you didn't answer this question:

Do you think Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be one Person or two? You seemed to say a couple of posts ago that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same Person, which Jesus refutes Himself in John 14.

The Bible is certainly not ambiguous. I well realize that you think your opinion is informed by the Bible, and that mine is not. That's fine with me, but on this subject, I would return the same right back to you.

Defending Christ's divine nature isn't lacking in grace.

LOL! No, but your manner of defending it is, Blue Dragonfly. And beyond that, I am in no way denying Christ's divine nature; we are and always have been in agreement on it.

Those who insist Jesus had to be exactly like humans because he was God come in the flesh lack the knowledge of God's word as it informs those in his light. That's not an opinion, that's scripture.

Most assuredly, that is your opinion. Jesus was both in the form of God (Greek 'morphe', the exact thing) and in the form of man (again, Greek 'morphe', the exact thing)... THAT is Scripture, Philippians 2:5-7, specifically:

"...Christ Jesus... was in the form of God... emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."​

You have yet to offer any alternative understanding of that verse. Likewise Romans 8:3, which says:

"By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He..." (the Father) "...condemned sin in the flesh"​

One more time, Blue Dragonfly, your accusations of blaspheming God's Holy Spirit and any and all accusations of having a "demigod" or corruption of God's Word is all mere rhetoric ~ graceless rhetoric ~ and demagoguery.

...by saying Jesus divine nature was sharing space with a sin nature because he was God in flesh are pushing an unbiblical pretentious false teaching of man.

In your opinion. Very well.

PinSeeker: Disagree.
​

That's obvious when proponents of their demigod construct corrupt God's word to sustain their allegiant church's false doctrine.

Rubbish.

Yes, better to end this, as God says.

1 Timothy 1:8-10 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

So God's Word is all true, of course, infallible and inerrant, and that includes this passage for sure, but your use of it in this conversation against me is unfounded and uncalled for.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Well, I was calling for a bit of clarification on what you do in fact believe, because your statements were ambiguous. And you didn't answer this question:

Do you think Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be one Person or two? You seemed to say a couple of posts ago that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same Person, which Jesus refutes Himself in John 14.

The Bible is certainly not ambiguous. I well realize that you think your opinion is informed by the Bible, and that mine is not. That's fine with me, but on this subject, I would return the same right back to you.


LOL! No, but your manner of defending it is, Blue Dragonfly. And beyond that, I am in no way denying Christ's divine nature; we are and always have been in agreement on it.


Most assuredly, that is your opinion. Jesus was both in the form of God (Greek 'morphe', the exact thing) and in the form of man (again, Greek 'morphe', the exact thing)... THAT is Scripture, Philippians 2:5-7, specifically:

"...Christ Jesus... was in the form of God... emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."​

You have yet to offer any alternative understanding of that verse. Likewise Romans 8:3, which says:

"By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He..." (the Father) "...condemned sin in the flesh"​

One more time, Blue Dragonfly, your accusations of blaspheming God's Holy Spirit and any and all accusations of having a "demigod" or corruption of God's Word is all mere rhetoric ~ graceless rhetoric ~ and demagoguery.


In your opinion. Very well.



Rubbish.


So God's Word is all true, of course, infallible and inerrant, and that includes this passage for sure, but your use of it in this conversation against me is unfounded and uncalled for.

Grace and peace to you.

OK.
I've made my position clear. It's your responsibility that you refuse to see it and instead bear false witness and deny I did so because you object to my Exegesis. Do you think I'll try to reach you over and over again when you misrepresent what I've said of my [position,that you deny, already?
No.


Don't wish those you hold in contempt using such deplorable tactics grace and peace afterward.
Those tactics are evidence you know neither.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The question of the thread is who is now making man in the womb with sin nature. Who is now forming man in the womb full of sin in the flesh?

Christ? the devil? man? No one?

Adam and Eve were created sinless, perfect humans, but when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they became sinful, imperfect humans. So Adam and Eve is at fault for causing humans to have a sinful nature from the womb. When they disobeyed they became imperfect, sinful. The law of heredity was already in effect. So when Adam and Eve sinned they could not pass on to their offspring what they no longer had, sinlessness or perfection.
The problem with most people is they believe that because they took no part in what Adam and Eve did and which they had no responsibility for, find this neither comprehensible or acceptable. However, it the truth that heredity is why humans are born with a sinful nature from the mother's womb, because of Adam and Eve's disobedience.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Adam and Eve were created sinless, perfect humans, but when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they became sinful, imperfect humans. So Adam and Eve is at fault for causing humans to have a sinful nature from the womb. When they disobeyed they became imperfect, sinful. The law of heredity was already in effect. So when Adam and Eve sinned they could not pass on to their offspring what they no longer had, sinlessness or perfection.
The problem with most people is they believe that because they took no part in what Adam and Eve did and which that had no responsibility for, find this neither comprehensible or acceptable. However, it the truth that heredity is why humans are born with a sinful nature from the mother's womb, because of Adam and Eve's disobedience.

Are babies able to die in sin?

 

[PinSeeker]

I've made my position clear.

I'd call it a mixed bag on that.

It's your responsibility that you refuse to see it...

No, I see what you think you see.

...and instead bear false witness...

I don't lie. I'm not even sure what you're talking about, nor do I care, really.

...you object to my Exegesis.

"Object?" Meh. Call it what you want. I just don't think it's correct in this particular subject we've been discussing. Likewise you me, I understand.

Do you think I'll try to reach you over and over again when you misrepresent what I've said of my position,that you deny, already?

Uh... what? I've not (purposefully, at least) misrepresented anything you've said, and have repeatedly asked you to clarify your positions. And in fact the misrepresentation has come directly from you. Yet again, please give me your exegesis of Romans 8:3-4 and Philippians 2:5-8. This makes three times I have asked. At this point, I really don't care whether you do or not; your silence has told me all I need to know.

Don't wish those you hold in contempt using such deplorable tactics grace and peace afterward.

Just a few things to say here;

1. You're "holding me in contempt" means nothing to me; my identity is in Christ.
2. You're feeling that someone wishing you grace and peace is "deplorable" is quite astounding, but I think you're just mad now.
3. Internet bullying is stupid.
4. I will continue to post as I wish.

Oh, and:

5. (well, from God's word) the following:

• "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Romans 1:7)
• "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:3)
• "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 1:2)
• "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ," (Galatians 1:3)
• "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Ephesians 1:2)
• "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:2)
• "To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father." (Colossians 1:2)
• "Grace to you and peace." (1 Thessalonians 1:1)
• "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 1:2)
• "Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord." (1 Timothy 1:2)
• "Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord." (2 Timothy 1:2)
• "Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior." (Titus 1:4)
• "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Philemon 1:3)
• "May grace and peace be multiplied to you." (1 Peter 1:2)
• "May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord." (2 Peter 1:2)
• "Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love." (2 John 1:3)
• "Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come..." (Revelation 1:4)

Those tactics are evidence you know neither.

No "tactics." Yeah, you're just ticked off, and trying tick me off. That's unfortunate, but so be it. Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Are babies able to die in sin?

They're dead in sin from conception, just like David said he was in Psalm 51. But even if he/she dies before being born or even shortly thereafter, God can change their heart... and will, by the power of His Holy Spirit ~ if he/she is one of His elect.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Are babies able to die in sin?

Psalms 51: 5 says, "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. We all are born in sin, which includes babies.
Roman 3:23 says, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Paul makes a similar point at Romans 3:9, 12; 5:12. The Greek word translated, "fall short of," could also be translated, "fail to reach," or "come short of." God created humans, "in his image," by giving them the ability to reflect his personality and qualities.(Genesis 1:26, 27) However, when the first humans, Adam and Eve, disobeyed God's command (Genesis 2:15-17; 3:1-6), they came short of reflecting the glory of God, including his glorious qualities. Since all Adam's offspring have inherited sin and it's consequences, death, every member of the human family falls short of properly reflecting God's lofty qualities.

So Romans 6:23 says, the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life, by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Psalms 51: 5 says, "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. We all are born in sin, which includes babies.
Roman 3:23 says, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Paul makes a similar point at Romans 3:9, 12; 5:12. The Greek word translated, "fall short of," could also be translated, "fail to reach," or "come short of." God created humans, "in his image," by giving them the ability to reflect his personality and qualities.(Genesis 1:26, 27) However, when the first humans, Adam and Eve, disobeyed God's command (Genesis 2:15-17; 3:1-6), they came short of reflecting the glory of God, including his glorious qualities. Since all Adam's offspring have inherited sin and it's consequences, death, every member of the human family falls short of properly reflecting God's lofty qualities.

So Romans 6:23 says, the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life, by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Psalm verse is David's personal diary of his own conception.

You didn't directly answer my question. If a baby dies does the baby die in sin,as a sinner?

 

[Enoch111]

You didn't directly answer my question. If a baby dies does the baby die in sin, as a sinner?

Not as "a sinner" but as a mortal human being descended from Adam. However, infants. babies, and very young children (called "little children" by Christ) are already accepted by God into the Kingdom of Heaven, since Christ died for them also.

 

[PinSeeker]

The Psalm verse is David's personal diary of his own conception.

Right, and ours is no different.

If a baby dies does the baby die in sin, as a sinner?

It depends on whether God has changed his/her heart or not, whether that baby has been born again of the Spirit, which can happen at any age, even before birth, as was the case with John, who leapt in his mother Elizabeth's womb when greeted by Mary, who was pregnant with Jesus at the time. John was elect even at that moment; that's at least one reason why that passage is in the Bible (in Luke 1).

Now, does this happen for all babies who die at any time after their conception. I will say probably not, but we cannot possibly know, because there is nothing in Scripture to indicate one way or the other.

I think Barney would reiterate pretty much exactly what I've said here, but that's his call; far be it from me to put words into his mouth.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Not as "a sinner" but as a mortal human being descended from Adam. However, infants. babies, and very young children (called "little children" by Christ) are already accepted by God into the Kingdom of Heaven, since Christ died for them also.

Thanks.
What I think Barney is saying by his post to my initial question is that they die condemned in their sin.