Who Created or Made a Sin Nature?

[PinSeeker]

Not as "a sinner" but as a mortal human being descended from Adam.

One is the other, and vice-versa.

...infants. babies, and very young children (called "little children" by Christ) are already accepted by God into the Kingdom of Heaven, since Christ died for them also.

Hm. When Christ calls them "little children" and says "let them come to me," He specifies no age. I would put His comment there in Matthew 19 in the same light as what Peter says in Acts 2, that, in speaking to the men of Israel, he says, "the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself." Here again, Peter specifies no age. Everyone is eligible, regardless of age.

Regarding Christ's atonement, Christ died for God's elect. His sacrifice was sufficient for all to be saved, but only effectual for God's elect, the ones He chose before the foundation of the world. Regarding babies, as I said in Post 59, It depends on whether God has changed his/her heart or not, whether the baby has been born again of the Spirit, which can happen at any age, even before birth, as was the case with John, who leapt in his mother Elizabeth's womb when greeted by Mary, who was pregnant with Jesus at the time. John was elect even at that moment; that's at least one reason why that passage is in the Bible (in Luke 1). Does this happen for all babies who die at any time after their conception? I would answer in the negative, but we cannot possibly know, because there is nothing in Scripture to indicate one way or the other. If you think so and would answer 'yes,' as it seems, I disagree, but I cannot argue with your position. Likewise, Enoch, with all due respect, you cannot really argue with mine; there is just nothing in Scripture to indicate one way or the other.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

What I think Barney is saying by his post to my initial question is that they die condemned in their sin.

I don't think he is saying that. But again, he can speak for himself.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Enoch111]

One is the other, and vice-versa.

Since infants do not commit sins you do not call them "sinners".

 

[ScottA]

Since infants do not commit sins you do not call them "sinners".

That is a good point to consider on this topic, for even an infant child is prone to sin given the opportunity of time. Which will prove out every time (save One), reasonably indicating, for lack of a better term, a sin nature among all mankind since Adam.

Thus, I would offer that even Jesus being born "in the likeness of sinful flesh", had a sin nature...except that He did not act upon it. I mean--He was and is the exception, the only One who has prevailed against all odds.

 

[robert derrick]

What the Bible says about Jesus as God in the Flesh

Jesus was God. Immanuel. ''God with us''. The word made flesh who dwelt among us.
John 1

Perfect and with a divine nature. Hebrews 1
The unblemished Lamb.

True. The spiritually pure Lamb of God came in the same mortal flesh as any other man on earth, which makes His life without sinning even more glorious: All other men sinned in their flesh, Jesus did not in the days of His flesh, which was the same flesh as all other men.

That is far more powerful an example that than some gnostic superhero, who only used a body that looked like man's for appearance's sake.

Hebrews 1 says nothing about the body being prepared for the Lord, out of Mary's flesh, as being perfect nor of divine nature.

So long as you speak from your own mind and imagination, you'll be saying things like Jesus came only in the appearance of man, but not really in the flesh of man.

He came in another kind of flesh.

If so, He's not my example. Neither is Superman. (Though I do love his movies)

 

[robert derrick]

Adam and Eve were created sinless, perfect humans, but when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they became sinful, imperfect humans. So Adam and Eve is at fault for causing humans to have a sinful nature from the womb. When they disobeyed they became imperfect, sinful. The law of heredity was already in effect. So when Adam and Eve sinned they could not pass on to their offspring what they no longer had, sinlessness or perfection.
The problem with most people is they believe that because they took no part in what Adam and Eve did and which they had no responsibility for, find this neither comprehensible or acceptable. However, it the truth that heredity is why humans are born with a sinful nature from the mother's womb, because of Adam and Eve's disobedience.

You get the prize for actually acknowledging the point of the thread and giving an answer.

I respect you for that.

However, you are now saying Adam changed his own natural seed and flesh to something other than Christ created him with, and so the flesh of man is no more created by Christ, nor shaped by Him in the womb, but by sinful man himself.

You are speaking of a 'fallen Adamic race' on earth, that Christ has nothing to say about in their making and birth.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Man is not now his own creator and maker in the womb.

when Adam and Eve disobeyed God they became sinful, imperfect humans.

As does every soul that sins today, whether first as a youth, or after being born again.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

True. The spiritually pure Lamb of God came in the same mortal flesh as any other man on earth, which makes His life without sinning even more glorious: All other men sinned in their flesh, Jesus did not in the days of His flesh, which was the same flesh as all other men.

That is far more powerful an example that than some gnostic superhero, who only used a body that looked like man's for appearance's sake.

Hebrews 1 says nothing about the body being prepared for the Lord, out of Mary's flesh, as being perfect nor of divine nature.

So long as you speak from your own mind and imagination, you'll be saying things like Jesus came only in the appearance of man, but not really in the flesh of man.

He came in another kind of flesh.

If so, He's not my example. Neither is Superman. (Though I do love his movies)

You are addressing the wrong member. I have never referred to anything gnostic in my Exegesis.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The Psalm verse is David's personal diary of his own conception.

You didn't directly answer my question. If a baby dies does the baby die in sin,as a sinner?

That depends upon the specific family or families.You know that we all die because of sin, even babies. We are all born in sin, therefore are sinners. Very young children, including babies, who have not reached the age of responsibility are almost altogether the product of their parents through inheritance, with, additionally, the training and environment provided by the parents. Accordingly, God holds the parents responsible until the child reaches the age of responsibility for his own decisions and acts.
What the parents do as to their relationship with God therefore affects the entire family. God holds parents responsible for the acts of their young children.

So the right or wrong acts of parents or the right or wrong training they give can reflect on the children’s children, even on great-grandchildren. For example, when the generation handling world affairs gets embroiled in a war it greatly affects future generations, just as has been the case in the aftermath of World Wars I and II.

Because God does grant the parents the right to bring up their children without his interference he can describe the results to parents who follow his laws and those who do not. He said to Moses: “I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.” (Exodus 20:5, 6) There can be no doubt about it: Children brought up in the wrong way are almost sure to practice bad things and receive the recompense due for their actions.

A case in point, of judgment of young children along with their wicked parents, is that of the Canaanites. Because of their long history of the deepest corruption their young children were executed along with them, at God’s command, when the Israelites occupied the land.(Deuteronomy 7:1, 2)
All this shows that God attributes merit or demerit to the young children of a family, based on the status of the parents. This doesn't mean these babies who died with their Canaanite parents will not get a resurrection. So if a child(baby) dies that has true Christian parents who are doing their best to live a Christian life then in God's eye's that baby is righteous because the parents are righteous. However if a baby dies that has parents who.are ungodly parents who have done nothing to teach their children about the True God and his qualities. Then that child(baby) will be seen as, unrighteous.However this doesn't mean this baby will not get a resurrection.

 

[robert derrick]

You are addressing the wrong member. I have never referred to anything gnostic in my Exegesis.

No, you only spoke as one.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

No, you only spoke as one.

Like I said, you're addressing the wrong member. Thanks.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

That depends upon the specific family or families.You know that we all die because of sin, even babies. We are all born in sin, therefore are sinners. Very young children, including babies, who have not reached the age of responsibility are almost altogether the product of their parents through inheritance, with, additionally, the training and environment provided by the parents. Accordingly, God holds the parents responsible until the child reaches the age of responsibility for his own decisions and acts.
What the parents do as to their relationship with God therefore affects the entire family. God holds parents responsible for the acts of their young children.

So the right or wrong acts of parents or the right or wrong training they give can reflect on the children’s children, even on great-grandchildren. For example, when the generation handling world affairs gets embroiled in a war it greatly affects future generations, just as has been the case in the aftermath of World Wars I and II.

Because God does grant the parents the right to bring up their children without his interference he can describe the results to parents who follow his laws and those who do not. He said to Moses: “I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.” (Exodus 20:5, 6) There can be no doubt about it: Children brought up in the wrong way are almost sure to practice bad things and receive the recompense due for their actions.

A case in point, of judgment of young children along with their wicked parents, is that of the Canaanites. Because of their long history of the deepest corruption their young children were executed along with them, at God’s command, when the Israelites occupied the land.(Deuteronomy 7:1, 2)
All this shows that God attributes merit or demerit to the young children of a family, based on the status of the parents. This doesn't mean these babies who died with their Canaanite parents will not get a resurrection. So if a child(baby) dies that has true Christian parents who are doing their best to live a Christian life then in God's eye's that baby is righteous because the parents are righteous. However if a baby dies that has parents who.are ungodly parents who have done nothing to teach their children about the True God and his qualities. Then that child(baby) will be seen as, unrighteous.However this doesn't mean this baby will not get a resurrection.

Thank you.

Romans 10:13 tells us, everyone who calls on the name of the father shall be saved.

Babies cannot do this. Which is why infant baptism is invalid.

Nor is there a passage that tells us salvation is a babies inheritance through their saved parents sexual union.

 

[Bob Estey]

No, it gives us a valid reason for why we cannot, in this life, keep from sinning. In no way do we have any excuse, as Paul is very clear of in Romans 1 and 2.

You are proving my point - believing we have a sin nature gives us an excuse to sin.

But sin brings trouble into our lives. If we want a life without trouble, we need to repent of our sin, which is what Jesus commanded us to do (Matthew 4:17).

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

You are proving my point - believing we have a sin nature gives us an excuse to sin.

But sin brings trouble into our lives. If we want a life without trouble, we need to repent of our sin, which is what Jesus commanded us to do (Matthew 4:17).

There is no excuse to sin.
The identity,sin nature, doesn't exist in scripture.

However, it is an identity that means to impart our human nature is subject to sin because we are not yet redeemed in Christ so to be forgiven and indwelt by God's holy spirit.

We as indwelt Christians are forgiven our sins. It doesn't mean we are perfect.
When we err, we have an advocate in Jesus.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
The so-called fallen nature-- a.k.a. the sinful nature --first appears at Gen
3:7-8 where it says:

"Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were
naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
And they heard the sound of The Lord God walking in the garden in the cool
of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of The
Lord God among the trees of the garden.

Prior to Adam tasting the forbidden fruit, he and Eve were comfortable
meeting with God is full frontal exposure.

"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."
(Gen 2:25)

• Gen 3:11 . .Then He asked: Who told you that you were naked?

In other words: who said undress is indecent? Where'd you get that idea?

Well; nobody had said undress is indecent, nor even suggested that it's
indecent-- the concept of a dress code was unheard of at that time. No;
Adam just felt indecent. In other words; upon tasting the forbidden fruit,
Adam's God-given moral compass went askew.

• Gen 3:22 . .Then the Lord God said: See; the man has become like one of
us, knowing good and evil.

The knowledge of good and evil that Man obtained via tasting the forbidden
fruit wasn't a God-given knowing, viz: Man's sense of right and wrong
became autonomous, i.e. its own sovereign deity.

Unfortunately, Man's askew sense of good and evil is a barrier between
himself and God; but not a hopeless case.

• Heb 9:13-14 . . For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of a
heifer’s ashes can sanctify those who are defiled so that their flesh is
cleansed, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal
spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from
dead works to worship the living God?
_

 

[quietthinker]

WHO Created or Made a Sin Nature?
Even that wouldn't surprise me!

 

[robert derrick]

Like I said, you're addressing the wrong member. Thanks.

I went back to make sure, but I did quote you right:

Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He appeared to be a man.

You want to ignore it or disavow it, that's no problem. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't ascribing to you, what someone else was teaching.

 

[robert derrick]

So...you believe that all souls "today" are born in the garden with God just as Adam was

No, neither was Adam. Starting off an argument without knowledge of Scripture, is not good.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

are then driven out by God when they sin?

We separate ourselves spiritually from God by sinning, as did Adam and Eve, but they were only ones driven out the garden He put Adam into, because they repented not.

Like Cain, them that sin and confess not, leave the presence of God.

Do you not see that, that is what you are claiming by saying that all mankind was created with a choice of whether to sin or not?

Yes, of course.

For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.

God indeed created the circumstances and terms of this world: Everything and everyone dies--naturally--by nature of those terms.

Of course. All flesh on earth was made by Christ naturally mortal.

If you want to take a stab at the thread's challenge, of who is now making man with seed and flesh filled with sin, other than Christ. Please do.

All the rest is just dancing around in endless circles, which I won't be doing on this thread.

 

[PinSeeker]

Since infants do not commit sins you do not call them "sinners".

That we are sinners ~ all of us, regarding of age ~ really refers to what we are prone to by nature rather than woodenly what we have or have not done. And we are all prone to sin from conception.

And even regarding actually committing sins, I would submit ~ very humbly ~ that people, regardless of age, are selfish, which is pretty much the root of all sin. Adam was selfish and disobeyed God; this is the sin of the Garden. So babies ~ we all ~ have this sinful nature in us from conception.

And as I have said before, God is outside of time, present as the great I AM in the "eternal now." So to Him, what to us is yet to happen has already happened, which is admittedly a hard concept to really grasp, but we can understand it at least to a limited degree. In that sense, even babies, regardless of their level of development or age, have sinned, and so, they are sinners, too, just like all of us.

Grace and peace to you, Enoch.

 

[ScottA]

No, neither was Adam. Starting off an argument without knowledge of Scripture, is not good.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?



We separate ourselves spiritually from God by sinning, as did Adam and Eve, but they were only ones driven out the garden He put Adam into, because they repented not.

Like Cain, them that sin and confess not, leave the presence of God.




Yes, of course.

For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.



Of course. All flesh on earth was made by Christ naturally mortal.

If you want to take a stab at the thread's challenge, of who is now making man with seed and flesh filled with sin, other than Christ. Please do.

All the rest is just dancing around in endless circles, which I won't be doing on this thread.

You are not correcting with scripture, but denying them and mocking them. Much is written of such a one. :-)

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

I went back to make sure, but I did quote you right:

You want to ignore it or disavow it, that's no problem. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't ascribing to you, what someone else was teaching.

It doesn't matter that you retrieved my quote.

What matters is the charge you make that I am gnostic or promoted gnosticism there.

That's a lie and slander.

Grow up.
Grow a conscience.

Don't be a liar to make your point.
When you lower yourself to that depth you lose all credibility as a person and alleged Christian.

Jesus was the word made flesh. That's not gnosticism, that's the gospel of John chapter 1. I won't be speaking to you again.You should repent.