Who Created or Made a Sin Nature?

[robert derrick]

since youre exhorting others to take Scripture more literally, a Quote might be in order there?
All go to the same place
there is only One Immortal…

The long home is the grave of mortal flesh only.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Many souls awake to Christ in this life, and many awake too late.

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

 

[Angelina]

I'd like clarification:
You teach sin is inherited by babes in the womb, and yet babes are innocent, until they choose at youth to sin.

How can any babe be innocent, if born with sin?

I never said that sin is inherited by babes in the womb. I said the original sin is inherited because of Adam, therefore, sin is in the world. A baby is innocent until they come to a place of knowledge of what is good and what is evil. When Jesus came in the form of a human. He did not sin all the way up to his adult life. He was sinless and with that was able to be a pure sacrifice on our behalf. If he was God, it would not be possible for him to be a sacrifice for us because he is God and he could have raised himself up which would have defeated the whole purpose.....

 

[Angelina]

To put it another way, the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil [in the garden of Eden] has given mankind the ability to choose to do what is right before God or what is wrong. A child cannot make those choices until they reach the age of knowledge. The age of knowledge is the pivotal point of where the original sin becomes a reality because of the choices made. This knowledge of good and evil is from that original tree....

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't think we were every prone to doing the wrong thing, but once we did, we created an addiction to doing the same wrong thing again.

Okay, think what you want to think. You're your own man, certainly. Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

I never said that sin is inherited by babes in the womb. I said the original sin is inherited because of Adam, therefore, sin is in the world. A baby is innocent until they come to a place of knowledge of what is good and what is evil. When Jesus came in the form of a human. He did not sin all the way up to his adult life. He was sinless and with that was able to be a pure sacrifice on our behalf. If he was God, it would not be possible for him to be a sacrifice for us because he is God and he could have raised himself up which would have defeated the whole purpose.....

I see now. You are not preaching sin inherited in the flesh of the womb, but rather in the learning of this life?

True. Sin has entered into the world by the first sinning man, Adam. It is death that passes upon all souls by sinning.

Sin is not passed upon all men by natural seed of man.

And so, I see you mean inherited by way of example. In context of the teaching of being born with sin nature, I would say learned, rather than inherited. Adam was a married man before sinning against God, but now, as you say, the children of men have learned to do so at an early age.

To put it another way, the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil [in the garden of Eden] has given mankind the ability to choose to do what is right before God or what is wrong. A child cannot make those choices until they reach the age of knowledge. The age of knowledge is the pivotal point of where the original sin becomes a reality because of the choices made. This knowledge of good and evil is from that original tree....

Actually, angels and men are made by Christ with power to choose good or evil.

It's what makes spiritual beings created in the image of God, different from all other living creatures on earth.

The trees and fruits of this life are only tests. In fact, all of heaven and earth was made for man only as a temporary test to the soul. That is why this earth and heaven will be done away at the end of our testing time, after Satan is loosed one last time on earth.

Being wrapped in mortal flesh is the test of our souls, and what makes us a little lower than the angels.

Christ came Himself in our same flesh, in order to justifiably forgive us of past sins, and to now endure temptation and win the testing of this life unto the end.

Our part in winning Christ is awaking unto His righteousness, and not sinning for the devil in our flesh:

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

 

[PinSeeker]

I never said that sin is inherited by babes in the womb.

Particular sins, no. Right. But that's not what's really in view, what the real issue is.

I said the original sin is inherited because of Adam, therefore, sin is in the world.

The brokenness, the proneness to sin. In that way, yes, sin is in the world. The fallen-from-grace state of all of creation, including all naturally-born human beings.

A baby is innocent until they come to a place of knowledge of what is good and what is evil.

See, no. The key word here is knowledge. In the Bible, regarding sin (and other things), knowledge is not mere cognitive recognition or understanding, it is a close intimacy with, even to be prone to it. It is a state of being, the inclination of the person at his or her core being, his or her heart. Every natural born person, regardless of age, is born in this state, the same state that Adam and Eve, our first parents, acquired in Genesis 3 after having partaken of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (before that, they knew only good). And since then, every natural-born baby has been born with this knowledge of evil (sin) ~ again, this 'knowledge' not being mere cognitive understanding, but inclination toward, proneness to evil/sin in his/her core being, his/her heart. This is the problem.

When Jesus came in the form of a human.

Right, but He was also in the form of God. This is what Paul says in Philippians 2.

He was sinless and with that was able to be a pure sacrifice on our behalf.

Right.

If he was God, it would not be possible for him to be a sacrifice for us because he is God and he could have raised himself up which would have defeated the whole purpose.....

Hm. He was God, and this is what made it possible for Him to be our Mediator between the Father and man. He was both of the Father and of man ~ the Son of God and the Son of Man. And... He did take His life back up again. After having laid down His life for us.

To put it another way, the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil [in the garden of Eden] has given mankind the ability to choose to do what is right before God or what is wrong.

No, it has given mankind the inability to save himself, even from birth. Again, the knowledge is not mere cognitive ability or lack thereof, but being naturally inclined toward evil, unable to escape this proneness to sin. This is why salvation of the Lord ~ by the will of the Father, through the work of the Son on the cross, and the work in us by the Spirit ~ is necessary. As I said earlier:

As Jesus says in John 3:5-8 to Nicodemus:

• "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

And, as He says elsewhere:

• “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)
• "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:27)
• "What is impossible with man is possible with God." (Luke 18:27)

A child cannot make those choices until they reach the age of knowledge.

This is true in its wooden sense, but misses the point entirely. Again, knowledge, which should be understood as I have said here instead of the way you are understanding it, is the key. I agree that "knowledge is the pivotal point of where the original sin becomes a reality," actually, but we have to correctly understand what this knowledge is. It is the person's core being and is a reality in the person regardless of age, even from conception.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

Particular sins, no. Right. But that's not what's really in view, what the real issue is.


The brokenness, the proneness to sin. In that way, yes, sin is in the world. The fallen-from-grace state of all of creation, including all naturally-born human beings.


See, no. The key word here is knowledge. In the Bible, regarding sin (and other things), knowledge is not mere cognitive recognition or understanding, it is a close intimacy with, even to be prone to it. It is a state of being, the inclination of the person at his or her core being, his or her heart. Every natural born person, regardless of age, is born in this state, the same state that Adam and Eve, our first parents, acquired in Genesis 3 after having partaken of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (before that, they knew only good). And since then, every natural-born baby has been born with this knowledge of evil (sin) ~ again, this 'knowledge' not being mere cognitive understanding, but inclination toward, proneness to evil/sin in his/her core being, his/her heart. This is the problem.


Right, but He was also in the form of God. This is what Paul says in Philippians 2.


Right.


Hm. He was God, and this is what made it possible for Him to be our Mediator between the Father and man. He was both of the Father and of man ~ the Son of God and the Son of Man. And... He did take His life back up again. After having laid down His life for us.


No, it has given mankind the inability to save himself, even from birth. Again, the knowledge is not mere cognitive ability or lack thereof, but being naturally inclined toward evil, unable to escape this proneness to sin. This is why salvation of the Lord ~ by the will of the Father, through the work of the Son on the cross, and the work in us by the Spirit ~ is necessary. As I said earlier:

As Jesus says in John 3:5-8 to Nicodemus:

• "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

And, as He says elsewhere:

• “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)
• "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:27)
• "What is impossible with man is possible with God." (Luke 18:27)

This is true in its wooden sense, but misses the point entirely. Again, knowledge, which should be understood as I have said here instead of the way you are understanding it, is the key. I agree that "knowledge is the pivotal point of where the original sin becomes a reality," actually, but we have to correctly understand what this knowledge is. It is the person's core being and is a reality in the person regardless of age, even from conception.

Grace and peace to you.

The way this guy keeps butting in to speak up for Satan's babies is something.

Lucifer always wanted to be as God the Creator.

And being the father of lies, it makes perfect sense that he settles for being believed as a creator, by the lie of making his little devils in the womb, by his sin thingy in their seed and flesh.

Once we see the silliness of it all, it gets fun to laugh at it all.

They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms.

 

[Angelina]

your post

I see now. You are not preaching sin inherited in the flesh of the womb, but rather in the learning of this life?

I never said it was in the flesh of the womb in the first place. That was your original interpretation.

Actually, angels and men are made by Christ with power to choose good or evil.

Preaching to the converted there...

The trees and fruits of this life are only tests. In fact, all of heaven and earth was made for man only as a temporary test to the soul. That is why this earth and heaven will be done away at the end of our testing time, after Satan is loosed one last time on earth.

Of course this is your understanding but not mine...

Being wrapped in mortal flesh is the test of our souls, and what makes us a little lower than the angels.

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think it would be hard to remember one's first transgression. As a matter of fact, I suspect the Lord has been trying to lead each one of us from the moment we were born, and early on, probably each of us ignored his advice.

ive been told that it can be remembered, although i must admit that i havent recalled mine, exactly. However the point remained, that there was a time when i first knowingly committed a transgression, ergo there was a time before that, when i had not

 

[Angelina]

Particular sins, no. Right. But that's not what's really in view, what the real issue is.


The brokenness, the proneness to sin. In that way, yes, sin is in the world. The fallen-from-grace state of all of creation, including all naturally-born human beings.


See, no. The key word here is knowledge. In the Bible, regarding sin (and other things), knowledge is not mere cognitive recognition or understanding, it is a close intimacy with, even to be prone to it. It is a state of being, the inclination of the person at his or her core being, his or her heart. Every natural born person, regardless of age, is born in this state, the same state that Adam and Eve, our first parents, acquired in Genesis 3 after having partaken of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (before that, they knew only good). And since then, every natural-born baby has been born with this knowledge of evil (sin) ~ again, this 'knowledge' not being mere cognitive understanding, but inclination toward, proneness to evil/sin in his/her core being, his/her heart. This is the problem.


Right, but He was also in the form of God. This is what Paul says in Philippians 2.


Right.


Hm. He was God, and this is what made it possible for Him to be our Mediator between the Father and man. He was both of the Father and of man ~ the Son of God and the Son of Man. And... He did take His life back up again. After having laid down His life for us.


No, it has given mankind the inability to save himself, even from birth. Again, the knowledge is not mere cognitive ability or lack thereof, but being naturally inclined toward evil, unable to escape this proneness to sin. This is why salvation of the Lord ~ by the will of the Father, through the work of the Son on the cross, and the work in us by the Spirit ~ is necessary. As I said earlier:

As Jesus says in John 3:5-8 to Nicodemus:

• "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

And, as He says elsewhere:

• “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)
• "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:27)
• "What is impossible with man is possible with God." (Luke 18:27)

This is true in its wooden sense, but misses the point entirely. Again, knowledge, which should be understood as I have said here instead of the way you are understanding it, is the key. I agree that "knowledge is the pivotal point of where the original sin becomes a reality," actually, but we have to correctly understand what this knowledge is. It is the person's core being and is a reality in the person regardless of age, even from conception.

Grace and peace to you.

Your opinions of course and you are entitled to them. When you quote scripture please also quote the verse you are referring to as I do not have much time available to go through a whole chapter to find the particular verse you are meaning in regards to your comments, otherwise it's a waist of my time.... Thank you

 

[bbyrd009]

The long home is the grave of mortal flesh only

in that case, it seems to me, that all go to the same place is at the very least misleading, and really a lie? Samuel (accepted) clearly told King Saul (rejected), you and your sons will be here with me

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

that is easily explained by a…better understanding of “dust of the earth” imo—iow if Daniel meant Sheol there, why not just say Sheol? if not to hide wisdom from the wise, iow—or even by applying the following verse,

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed

wherein no one actually rises from the dead literally, which is what we observe, at least to date

 

[bbyrd009]

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

here we rely on possibly reading too much into a parable that is meant to teach a different lesson entirely, as “Lazarus” is defined as “Eleazar,” or iow “the Hebrew Theocracy/nation,” and the reading in too much part is not supported by any other Scripture, imo. The lesson being “if they didnt listen to the prophets, they wont listen even if Yah Himself comes down and tells them” paraphrased

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

and again here, where the actual lesson is 2 Corinthians 5:9 Lexicon: Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. , and a more accurate Quote might easily be “We are cock-sure, i say, and even wish that we were already dead, and partying with Jesus,” being as how our “confidence” and “willingness” do not in any way point to truth, but are more likely to indicate our deception,
I will never leave you nor forsake you

so, just some food for thought, being as how you most likely are not going to become an immortal

No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, the son of man right?

so iow if you start with the ones that that speak literally, and then add the ones with flowery/religious interpretations in on that already existing understanding, you will be less likely to misinterpret the flowery ones—due to your confidence, and willingness—forcing you to ignore the straightforward ones

 

[Behold]

that there was a time when i first knowingly committed a transgression,

Its that initial and innate understanding that what you want is wrong for you to have.
A baby does not understand this...
But as they mature, as they mentally come into the knowledge of Good vs Wrong, of Bad, vs Right, .... at that instant, they have now that knowledge that Adam had when he chose to REBEL.


The Buddha taught that "to want" is the issue., is the problem.
But that is not true.
God created us to want and to desire.
The issue with this, for us, is to want that which is knowingly wrong for us...and that is the sin nature in operation.
That is "LUST". And to pursue it and get it, is the SIN.
Lust can also be to want more of what is good..... so that it become greed.

 

[robert derrick]

So Adam and Eve is at fault for causing humans to have a sinful nature from the womb. When they disobeyed they became imperfect, sinful. The law of heredity was already in effect. So when Adam and Eve sinned they could not pass on to their offspring what they no longer had, sinlessness or perfection.

And so man changed his seed, and now man is creating and making his own flesh in the womb without Christ.

What is being revealed here is unbelief in Christ as the sole Creator and Maker of all things in heaven and on earth today.

What is being taught is an automated and sin-generated natural reproduction system on earth, that Christ has nothing to say about: humanist natural selection.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

What is being rejected is the Scripture that declares plainly: nothing on earth is created nor made, today, without Christ.

Humanist natural birth for sinning declares Christ does not lighten every babe coming into the world, with His good and pure light to please God and love man.

What is being taught is that no babes born into the world today, as they were yesterday in the beginning, are created by Christ, nor lightened by Christ, nor come into the world for God's good pleasure:

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

All things, including babes in the womb in the beginning, were and are now created by Christ for God's good pleasure, and are lightened by Christ at birth for that very purpose.

The lie of being born with flesh full of sin, is the devil's doctrine of him being a creator of man by man's own will and seed, so that man's birth on earth no more has anything to do with Christ, which contradicts all Scripture from Genesis 1 to Revelation 4, saying all men are created equally in His image, both yesterday and today, for His good pleasure.

And these same people teach it is impossible for babes born of Satan, not to also be a sinning child of the devil on this earth as any time.

That is the teaching of a false christ of doom and gloom from cradle to grave.

Brothers and sisters in Christ: all babes born into this world are lightened by Christ to please God and love their parents and man, and if we receive lust into the heart to sin against God and parents and man, then Christ has come in the very same flesh as us, to recreate us anew and make us in His image again: as newborn pure babes, though not as from the womb at the first.

This is the doctrine of Christ I believe from the heart and teach and live by.

And it doesn't result in a continued life of sinning for the devil, who is not now my father, nor was he my father in my mother's womb.

 

[PinSeeker]

The way this guy keeps butting in to speak up for Satan's babies is something.

Lucifer always wanted to be as God the Creator.

He does try to imitate God, yes.

And being the father of lies, it makes perfect sense that he settles for being believed as a creator, by the lie of making his little devils in the womb, by his sin thingy in their seed and flesh.

Such total lack of understanding on your part. Or avoidance. Or both. But in any case, utterly astounding.

Once we see the silliness of it all, it gets fun to laugh at it all.

It's good to laugh at yourself from time to time. Good on you. Yes, I totally agree that your comments are terribly silly. Most of them anyway, and this on here is certainly that. :)

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

 

[PinSeeker]

Your opinions of course and you are entitled to them.

And you yours. Sure.

When you quote scripture please also quote the verse you are referring to as I do not have much time available to go through a whole chapter to find the particular verse you are meaning in regards to your comments, otherwise it's a waist of my time.... Thank you

I did for the many references I made in that post, except for Philippians 2, specifically verse 6, regarding Christ's being was in the form of God, which I have cited specifically many times in this very thread.

And Philippians 2... I mean, it would have taken you maybe a minute or two to glance at, say, the ESV online. If you've got all this time to spend on a message board, I'm not sure you should be talking about anybody "waisting your time." :) Just a little fun poke atcha... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Angelina]

And so man changed his seed, and now man is creating and making his own flesh in the womb without Christ.

What is being revealed here is unbelief in Christ as the sole Creator and Maker of all things in heaven and on earth today.

What is being taught is an automated and sin-generated natural reproduction system on earth, that Christ has nothing to say about: humanist natural selection.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

What is being rejected is the Scripture that declares plainly: nothing on earth is created nor made, today, without Christ.

Humanist natural birth for sinning declares Christ does not lighten every babe coming into the world, with His good and pure light to please God and love man.

What is being taught is that no babes born into the world today, as they were yesterday in the beginning, are created by Christ, nor lightened by Christ, nor come into the world for God's good pleasure:

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

All things, including babes in the womb in the beginning, were and are now created by Christ for God's good pleasure, and are lightened by Christ at birth for that very purpose.

The lie of being born with flesh full of sin, is the devil's doctrine of him being a creator of man by man's own will and seed, so that man's birth on earth no more has anything to do with Christ, which contradicts all Scripture from Genesis 1 to Revelation 4, saying all men are created equally in His image, both yesterday and today, for His good pleasure.

And these same people teach it is impossible for babes born of Satan, not to also be a sinning child of the devil on this earth as any time.

That is the teaching of a false christ of doom and gloom from cradle to grave.

Brothers and sisters in Christ: all babes born into this world are lightened by Christ to please God and love their parents and man, and if we receive lust into the heart to sin against God and parents and man, then Christ has come in the very same flesh as us, to recreate us anew and make us in His image again: as newborn pure babes, though not as from the womb at the first.

This is the doctrine of Christ I believe from the heart and teach and live by.

And it doesn't result in a continued life of sinning for the devil, who is not now my father, nor was he my father in my mother's womb.

And you yours. Sure.


I did for the many references I made in that post, except for Philippians 2, specifically verse 6, regarding Christ's being was in the form of God, which I have cited specifically many times in this very thread.

And Philippians 2... I mean, it would have taken you maybe a minute or two to glance at, say, the ESV online. If you've got all this time to spend on a message board, I'm not sure you should be talking about anybody "waisting your time." :) Just a little fun poke atcha... :)

Grace and peace to you.

I think that waisting my time is a relevant point particularly when there is a forum of over 20,000 members not including things that are happening in the backend which you are not aware of and nightshift tonight. I posted in this thread because of the O/P. I should have realized that there was going to be heckling from the peanut gallery ;)

 

[PinSeeker]

And so man changed his seed, and now man is creating and making his own flesh in the womb without Christ.

You get that from what Barney has said? Do you really think that's what Barney is saying? Or even the effect of what he's saying? Really? My sweet Lord... :)

Grace and peace to you, babe. I mean, uh, Robert. :)

 

[PinSeeker]

I think that waisting my time is a relevant point particularly when there is a forum of over 20,000 members not including things that are happening in the backend which you are not aware of and nightshift tonight. I posted in this thread because of the O/P. I should have realized that there was going to be heckling from the peanut gallery ;)

Well, I was just having a little fun with you, Angelina. Come on. Surely there's a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit of a sense of humor in there somewhere... :)

Seriously, though, my post (146) was very thorough. I'm not concerned with what you consider to be a waste of your time.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

I think it varies depending on the version. Some have Ecclesiastes 12:7 as '' ..the soul returns to God who gave it.'' others say spirit.
It has to comport with the Adam creation narrative in Genesis.

When God breathed into his nostrils he became a living soul.
So if we die, our soul returns to God who gave us living life from his own breath.

Interesting too, all scripture is God breathed.

um, doesnt it say that the spirit goes back to Yah?