Who Created or Made a Sin Nature?

[PinSeeker]

I'm speaking of the combination of Calvin's preselection of souls...

It's actually Moses's:

"And He (God) said, 'I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.'" (Exodus 33:19)​

and Paul's, directly referring to Exodus 33:19:

"For He (again, God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:14-18)​

So it's really... God's preselection. God, the great I AM, Who, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:3-4, "chose us before the foundation of the world." :)

Ahh, nicely done. The super enhanced version of OSAS' premier theological concept term 'irrevocable'. I do love it when you guys talk that way. It's just so theologically exciting. This one's good for the ol' OSAS hopper. OSAS preaches jelly-filled donuts with plenty of room for sin sprinkles on top.

Ah yes, so in your mind, 'irrevocable' means 'revocable.' Hm. :) So since you live in Opposite-World, Romans 11:29 really says, "the gifts and the calling of God are revocable." Got it. :)

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: So what was unclear or ambiguous to you, Blue Dragonfly?

Nothing.

Well, good. :)

I know it is not harmonious or non-contradiction.

2 Samuel 23:8; Compare 1 Chronicles 11:11
Acts 9:7: Compare to Acts 22:9

In the first case, copying errors are the culprit:

"These are the names of the mighty men whom David had: Josheb-basshebeth a Tahchemonite; he was chief of the three." (2 Samuel 23:8)
"This is an account of David’s mighty men: Jashobeam, a Hachmonite, was chief of the three." (1 Chronicles 11:11)

Scribal (copying of the original manuscripts) error has been an issue with the copying of the text. There is, however, no contradiction to note or a difference in events. The meaning of the text ~ the name of Jashobeam, his position as chief, how many he killed, and the place he was from ~ can easily be reconciled rather than attributed as contradiction. Do the copy errors deconstruct any theological foundations? Clearly, the answer is no. While scribal errors are found, contradictions are not evident.
​

In the second case, one complements the other, and vice-versa:

"The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one." (Acts 9:7)
"Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me." (Acts 22:9)

Acts 9:7 says they heard, but makes no inference about their understanding one way or the other, and Acts 22:9 makes no inference about them being speechless or or otherwise, but only that they did not understand. Acts 9:7 says they saw no one, but makes no inference about their seeing the light one way or the other, and Acts 22:9 says they saw the light. There is no contradiction; there is no reason to think either one untrue. Thus, together, they work together to give us a more complete picture of exactly what happened.
​

Next?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Well, good. :)



In the first case, copying errors are the culprit:

"These are the names of the mighty men whom David had: Josheb-basshebeth a Tahchemonite; he was chief of the three." (2 Samuel 23:8)
"This is an account of David’s mighty men: Jashobeam, a Hachmonite, was chief of the three." (1 Chronicles 11:11)

Scribal (copying of the original manuscripts) error has been an issue with the copying of the text. There is, however, no contradiction to note or a difference in events. The meaning of the text ~ the name of Jashobeam, his position as chief, how many he killed, and the place he was from ~ can easily be reconciled rather than attributed as contradiction. Do the copy errors deconstruct any theological foundations? Clearly, the answer is no. While scribal errors are found, contradictions are not evident.​

In the second case, one complements the other, and vice-versa:

"The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one." (Acts 9:7)
"Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me." (Acts 22:9)

Acts 9:7 says they heard, but makes no inference about their understanding one way or the other, and Acts 22:9 makes no inference about them being speechless or or otherwise, but only that they did not understand. Acts 9:7 says they saw no one, but makes no inference about their seeing the light one way or the other, and Acts 22:9 says they saw the light. There is no contradiction; there is no reason to think either one untrue. Thus, together, they work together to give us a more complete picture of exactly what happened.
​

Next?

Grace and peace to you.

Next? You want more evidence to prove my prior point? OK.


2 Samuel 24
1 Chronicles 21

 

[Jack]

It's scary to think that those who preach that babies will burn in Hell will stand before Jesus soon!
Matthew 19
14 but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[ScottA]

It's scary to think that those who preach that babies will burn in Hell will stand before Jesus soon!

Whoever preaches that is not of God.

But that is not what is debated here.

 

[PinSeeker]

Next? You want more evidence to prove my prior point? OK.


2 Samuel 24
1 Chronicles 21

You know, I'm not going to waste my time or yours. My post 262 shows that you will get the same kind of absolute debunking of all your contradiction claims.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Jack]

Whoever preaches that is not of God.

But that is not what is debated here.

Ok, but I couldn't resist refuting babies going to Hell.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

You know, I'm not going to waste my time or yours. My post 262 shows that you will get the same kind of absolute debunking of all your contradiction claims.

Grace and peace to you.

No, it didn't in the least. And you know that. Which is why you're backing out.

Thanks for saving me my time.

 

[ScottA]

Ok, but I couldn't resist refuting babies going to Hell.

I do believe that is the one thing we are all in agreement on.

It should be quite obvious that with little children desiring to come to Jesus and Him desiring them to come to Him, that there is no offense--not that, that would include every child. But that is not the issue. The issue, is rather that we are all the children of Eve, the one who first sinned and the mother of all living. The term "sin nature" is indeed offensive, certainly when it comes to babes...nonetheless, that is our heritage. Just as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, this issue of sins is also by inheritance. Therefore, we most also be born again of the spirit of God.

Who then is willing to attempt entering the kingdom by their birthright they attained from Adam--and who is willing to say, "I have not inherited sin?"

Yet many here cast that stone.

 

[JunChosen]

When someone is teaching false doctrine, after a while the more crazy things they believe will come through.

In this case, someone believes the lie of being created and taken from the womb by Christ by sin and to sin against God, and now they must come up innocent babes, who have done no sin, burning in hell. And so now they come up with being saved or damned in eternity past. The babes that go to hell were preselected and made for it.

This of course is more Calvin predestination rubbish. They don't mind preaching Christ creates sinners in the womb destined for hell, so long as they are one of those sinners destined for heaven.

At this point we realize we aren't dealing with serious people. They are the same kind that deny free will, and don't take responsibility for their actions in life, because they aren't judged for what they do, because they are 'preselected' for heaven.

Many people teach doctrines against the word of God or ignorant of it. So when someone teaches the truth of Scripture they can't comprehend because seeing they cannot see, and hearing they cannot hear. Not only that but God gives them a delusion that they will believe a lie, such as in this case. They would rather believe their own wisdom. But I say, "Let God be true and all men liars."

Read below and weep!

Psalms 58:3-11
As in Adam ALL (without exception including babies) die.

As it is written, There is none righteous no, not one (not even babies). Romans 3:10
There is none that doeth good, no, not one (no exception). Romans 3:12
As it is written, Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:13
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Romans 9:15

Shall I continue?

To God Be The Glory

 

[PinSeeker]

No, it didn't in the least...

Sure, you don't think so. I'm perfectly fine with that. :)

And you know that. Which is why you're backing out.

Well, no, but I'm okay with you "thinking" that. :)

Thanks for saving me my time.

Well, I'd be lying if I said it was more about saving you some time than wasting my own time. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[JunChosen]

When someone is teaching false doctrine, after a while the more crazy things they believe will come through.

In this case, someone believes the lie of being created and taken from the womb by Christ by sin and to sin against God, and now they must come up innocent babes, who have done no sin, burning in hell. And so now they come up with being saved or damned in eternity past. The babes that go to hell were preselected and made for it.

This of course is more Calvin predestination rubbish. They don't mind preaching Christ creates sinners in the womb destined for hell, so long as they are one of those sinners destined for heaven.

At this point we realize we aren't dealing with serious people. They are the same kind that deny free will, and don't take responsibility for their actions in life, because they aren't judged for what they do, because they are 'preselected' for heaven.

READ and WEEP!!!
30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? .....Robert Derrick? LOL

To God Be The Glory

 

[robert derrick]

It's actually Moses's:

"And He (God) said, 'I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The LORD.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.'" (Exodus 33:19)​

and Paul's, directly referring to Exodus 33:19:

"For He (again, God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." (Romans 9:14-18)​

So it's really... God's preselection. God, the great I AM, Who, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:3-4, "chose us before the foundation of the world." :)


Ah yes, so in your mind, 'irrevocable' means 'revocable.' Hm. :) So since you live in Opposite-World, Romans 11:29 really says, "the gifts and the calling of God are revocable." Got it. :)

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

God saves and chooses those who are believing and obeying Him only.

And only those doing so at the end will obtain His eternal salvation.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

 

[robert derrick]

READ and WEEP!!!
30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? .....Robert Derrick? LOL

To God Be The Glory

God has called and chosen every soul He creates to be conformed to His dear Son's image: only those who do so obediently by His faith, obtain that promised eternal life and salvation in the end.

It's just a process of elimination: all are called, but only few are chosen.

His seed is scattered everywhere for all souls on earth to hear, but only those who receive Him in a good and honest heart abide in Him unto the end.

In the parable of the sower of the seed, no soul is left out, and every soul has equal opportunity to believe and obey Him, even as every soul is created by Christ equally with life and calling to please God:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

That means every soul born a babe of the womb, beginning with Adam, and including Jesus.

 

[robert derrick]

All souls being called and predestined to be conformed to Jesus' image proves all souls are called to please God before the foundation of the world and at birth, not with the sin calling of the devil.

The same calling of God to Adam is for all men coming into the world: to be conformed to the image of the Lord,; which is obedience to the commandment of God.

 

[robert derrick]

Many people teach doctrines against the word of God or ignorant of it. So when someone teaches the truth of Scripture they can't comprehend because seeing they cannot see, and hearing they cannot hear. Not only that but God gives them a delusion that they will believe a lie, such as in this case. They would rather believe their own wisdom. But I say, "Let God be true and all men liars."

Read below and weep!

Psalms 58:3-11
As in Adam ALL (without exception including babies) die.

As it is written, There is none righteous no, not one (not even babies). Romans 3:10
There is none that doeth good, no, not one (no exception). Romans 3:12
As it is written, Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:13
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Romans 9:15

Shall I continue?

To God Be The Glory

All mortal bodies die. That's the way Christ made them, whether man or any other living creature on earth.

Souls only die by sinning, which is not how Christ makes us in the womb.

And so death of the soul has passed upon all men by sinning, not by being born mortal in the flesh.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

The Scripture does not say sin passes upon all babes, but that death passes upon all souls that sin, when choosing to do so as a youth and beyond.

Jesus is the only man upon whom death did not pass upon His soul, because He never chose to sin. His body died, because it was mortal flesh like the 1st Adam and every other man and woman on earth, along with all other living creatures made with mortal flesh by Christ.

This is all obvious, and so as you say, you are willfully blind to it, for your little pet theory to excuse being a sinner from cradle to grave.

 

[Jack]

Many people teach doctrines against the word of God or ignorant of it.

Amen! Those who are brainwashed by the WatchTower and try CONSTANTLY to rewrite the Christian Bible.

 

[PinSeeker]

God saves and chooses those who are believing and obeying Him only.

God's choice does not depend on ours; it's quite the other way around. Else God's grace is not grace at all.

And only those doing so at the end will obtain His eternal salvation.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

Yes, because we have been raised with Jesus and are in Christ, because we have been given faith (Ephesians 2), we obey, we walk in the Spirit, we obey, we do good works, not the other way around. Thank you for quoting Hebrews 5:9. As I'm sure you remember, the writer of Hebrews says virtually the same later but is even more emphatic, saying in Hebrews 12:2 that Jesus is the author and finisher/perfecter of our faith.

Yes, it is absolutely true that we will all be judged according to our works:

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek." (Romans 2:4-10)

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)

"Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God." (1 Corinthians 4:5)

"If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth..." (1 Peter 1:17)

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds." (Revelation 20:12)​

But again, as per Paul, the writer of Hebrews, Peter, James, and John, our obedience and good works are the inevitable result of God's Spirit given to us, His gift of faith to His elect, His placing them in Christ Jesus ~ His grace... His unmerited favor.

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

 

[JunChosen]

All mortal bodies die.

Correct

Souls only die by sinning

Correct

And so death of the soul has passed upon all men by sinning, not by being born mortal in the flesh.

Not quite. Death has NOT passed upon all men by sinning, but by the sin of one man, Adam and can be seen by your Scripture reference below.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by (Adam's) sin; and so death passed upon all men (including babies), for that all (without exception) have sinned.

The Scripture does not say sin passes upon all babes, but that death passes upon all souls that sin, when choosing to do so as a youth and beyond.

Including babies as per Psalms 58. I gather you don't know how to read nor understand Scripture and I say this without malice.

Jesus is the only man upon whom death did not pass upon His soul, because He never chose to sin. His body died, because it was mortal flesh like the 1st Adam and every other man and woman on earth, along with all other living creatures made with mortal flesh by Christ.

Let me tell you a mystery. Jesus who is God Himself had to come to earth BECAUSE it was man who sinned, so man needed another man (Jesus) to save him from the wrath that is to come for "The wages of sin is death." And, Jesus did not come to save all living creatures. Only His people. LOL Matthew 1:21

This is all obvious, and so as you say, you are willfully blind to it, for your little pet theory to excuse being a sinner from cradle to grave.

Please, I urge you to read Scripture and by the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The true Gospel have been manifested to you by @PinSeeker and myself. There is now no excuse:
10) And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11) And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12) That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
13) And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

To God Be The glory

 

[Peterlag]

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformer's such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.