Who Does The Father Draw?

[GodsGrace]

A poster, @Philip James, made the following comment:

Indeed, and all are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb...
But,
'no one can come to me unless the Father draw him'

What exactly does this mean?
Who does the Father draw?

 

[Stranger]

A poster, @Philip James, made the following comment:

Indeed, and all are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb...
But,
'no one can come to me unless the Father draw him'

What exactly does this mean?
Who does the Father draw?

(John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

(John 6:37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Jesus Christ is the One the Father will draw all to. But it is the Fathers decision who comes to Christ, His decision as to who He draws. At the same time, any who come to Christ, He will receive.

You have both election and man's will covered.

Stranger

 

[Hidden In Him]

A poster, @Philip James, made the following comment:

Indeed, and all are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb...
But,
'no one can come to me unless the Father draw him'

What exactly does this mean?
Who does the Father draw?

In addition to Stranger's response, let me just add that He also draws people who have avatars of gooberheads wearing little white bonnets...

It's by God's grace, of course, but He seems to take a special interest in such people for some reason.

 

[Philip James]

Rom 8:28

We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose

Imo, the Father enables and draws to Jesus, those who love, or who will love.

Because God knows the end from the beginning, He knows those who will choose life and love and those who will not.

He offers life to all men, and indeed loves all men, but will force no one to respond...

Peace!

 

[Helen]

A poster, @Philip James, made the following comment:

Indeed, and all are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb...
But,
'no one can come to me unless the Father draw him'

What exactly does this mean?
Who does the Father draw?

Stranger put up the scriptures...

I remember being 4 yrs old and taken to church. It was a Church of England stained glass windows and such like.
I couldn't read, but I remember holding the hymnbook and looking around the place and just 'being aware' of God.
How could a 4 year old 'feel God' or even understand an unseen awesome Being? I just 'felt God' I had no doubts that He was 'was'.

So Yes...I believe as kids God starts to say " I am here".
I always believed in God. I just didn't want Him controlling my life.
As 15 my dad tried to get me to be afraid of Hell to get me saved.
At 21 I began to 'feel like' I wanted God in my life.
I think we all believe that we started seeking Him...but I am sure that it is always Him who is gentle nudging us and drawing us.

I presume some of us desire this and we know that we always have wanted this , and we respond..and some still want to control their own lives fearing that somehow their life will be boring if they become Christians. But the longer this period of time goes, the more danger of listening to the Enemy...and the harder the heart becomes.
Hence, we get atheists etc.

 

[Philip James]

I always believed in God. I just didn't want Him controlling my life.

It is truly ourselves who get in the way of Gods 'controlling' love...

When we control our young children to protect them from harm, they dont always understand do they?

Peace!

 

[GodsGrace]

(John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

(John 6:37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Jesus Christ is the One the Father will draw all to. But it is the Fathers decision who comes to Christ, His decision as to who He draws. At the same time, any who come to Christ, He will receive.

You have both election and man's will covered.

Stranger

You're cheating Stranger!
You can't have it both ways.

If God ELECTS us then we have no free will.
If we have free will then WE choose to follow God.

I see now why I've never understood your position and was always mixed up by your posts.

Are you a calvinist or not??
If you are, then you can't make up your own rules.

If you're not, then please explain what you mean by God electing us.

 

[GodsGrace]

Stranger put up the scriptures...

I remember being 4 yrs old and taken to church. It was a Church of England stained glass windows and such like.
I couldn't read, but I remember holding the hymnbook and looking around the place and just 'being aware' of God.
How could a 4 year old 'feel God' or even understand an unseen awesome Being? I just 'felt God' I had no doubts that He was 'was'.

So Yes...I believe as kids God starts to say " I am here".
I always believed in God. I just didn't want Him controlling my life.
As 15 my dad tried to get me to be afraid of Hell to get me saved.
At 21 I began to 'feel like' I wanted God in my life.
I think we all believe that we started seeking Him...but I am sure that it is always Him who is gentle nudging us and drawing us.

I presume some of us desire this and we know that we always have wanted this , and we respond..and some still want to control their own lives fearing that somehow their life will be boring if they become Christians. But the longer this period of time goes, the more danger of listening to the Enemy...and the harder the heart becomes.
Hence, we get atheists etc.

Hi BG,
I believe that by the above you mean that God draws ALL MEN to Him and then we decide if we want to be a member of His family or not.

The scriptures @Stranger put up could be interpreted different ways depending on what one believes is the true nature of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Rom 8:28

We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose

Imo, the Father enables and draws to Jesus, those who love, or who will love.

Because God knows the end from the beginning, He knows those who will choose life and love and those who will not.

He offers life to all men, and indeed loves all men, but will force no one to respond...

Peace!

You sound so much like a Calvanist, I can't even begin.
You really SHOULD study up on calvinism.

IF it's the Father who enables and draws to Jesus, does that mean that HE did not ENABLE those who never get saved?

See. Your words are very important and you have to make sure they represent what you believe.

 

[Enoch111]

'no one can come to me unless the Father draw him'

What exactly does this mean?
Who does the Father draw?

Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one (in absolute unity and harmony within the Godhead), even though they are three, then it follows that the Father draws those whom the Son and the Holy Spirit draw. Which means that they draw ALL SINNERS to the Savior through the Gospel.

Does Christ draw all men to Himself? Absolutely.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. (John 12:32)

Even though “men” is in italics which means it has been inserted by the translators (and means “people”), “all” means ALL. If all human beings are sinners, and Christ died for the sins of the whole world, then all people need the Savior to save them.

Does the Holy Spirit draw all men to Christ? Absolutely.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)

“The world” means the whole world of humanity – the inhabitants of the earth. And one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit is to convict and convince ("reprove") sinners when the Gospel is preached. Convict them about their sinful condition and convince them that the Lord Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior of the world, and they must come to Him to be saved. Hence we have these words: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

 

[Philip James]

IF it's the Father who enables and draws to Jesus, does that mean that HE did not ENABLE those who never get saved?

Im not exactly sure what youre asking here. If youre asking if God enables and aids some to choose death then i would think no...

I think those who ulitimately choose death do so entirely of themselves...

That the Father KNOWS they will do so before they are even formed does not absolve them of the responsibility for their choice.

Peace!

 

[lforrest]

You're cheating Stranger!
You can't have it both ways.

Says you.

 

[Stranger]

You're cheating Stranger!
You can't have it both ways.

If God ELECTS us then we have no free will.
If we have free will then WE choose to follow God.

I see now why I've never understood your position and was always mixed up by your posts.

Are you a calvinist or not??
If you are, then you can't make up your own rules.

If you're not, then please explain what you mean by God electing us.

You seem angry...are you?

(John 6:37) is not my writing. You say I can't have it both ways, well then, cut (6:37) out of your Bible. For it addresses both ways. And I personally am glad it does.

Both statements are true. All that the Father gives to the Son will come to Him. And anyone who comes will be received. That is a glorious truth full of comfort for those who fear they are not drawn of God to the Son. If one has come to Christ they can know that they are received and drawn and shall not be turned away.

I know you hate Calvinism. We have had discussions before. I know you want to label me a Calvinist because I hold to election. I do believe some things in Calvinism. But not all. I don't believe I am making up my own rules. In the course of Bible study I come to certain conclusions. I have never been locked into any certain Theological System, though I favor some more than others.

You ask what I mean by God electing us? Again, (John 6:37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...." You ask where does mans will come into play? (John 6:37) "....and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Do you believe it is mans will that will prevail over God's will?

Stranger

 

[Helen]

Hi BG,
I believe that by the above you mean that God draws ALL MEN to Him and then we decide if we want to be a member of His family or not.

The scriptures @Stranger put up could be interpreted different ways depending on what one believes is the true nature of God.

Yes I believe that.
I do not believe that it is as simple as
"either / or" I believe it is both.
I think we see this in the "Song Of Solomon."
He calls and He draws, yet she seeks until she finds, He is elusive and runs and hides so that her longing is as great as His is.

Did you choose your husband or did he choose you?
With mine, he chose me..I was very reluctant as I had seen who he 'ran with' and I didn't like him much, or his crowd. I kept putting him off "Sorry busy that night" etc He didn't give up.
But that said, I was the one who chose to marry him and not someone else.
He couldn't have married me unless I agreed.

So, who chose who? ;)

 

[GodsGrace]

Since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one (in absolute unity and harmony within the Godhead), even though they are three, then it follows that the Father draws those whom the Son and the Holy Spirit draw. Which means that they draw ALL SINNERS to the Savior through the Gospel.

Does Christ draw all men to Himself? Absolutely.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. (John 12:32)

Even though “men” is in italics which means it has been inserted by the translators (and means “people”), “all” means ALL. If all human beings are sinners, and Christ died for the sins of the whole world, then all people need the Savior to save them.

Does the Holy Spirit draw all men to Christ? Absolutely.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)

“The world” means the whole world of humanity – the inhabitants of the earth. And one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit is to convict and convince ("reprove") sinners when the Gospel is preached. Convict them about their sinful condition and convince them that the Lord Jesus Christ is the one and only Savior of the world, and they must come to Him to be saved. Hence we have these words: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)

Couldn't agree with you more!
I have nothing to add.

You even explained what ALL means and what MEN means and what WORLD means. We're on the same page.

Praise God. He wishes ALL MEN in the whole WORLD to be saved!
1 Timothy 2:4
John 3:16

 

[GodsGrace]

Says you.

How do you have it both ways?

Does God choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell as Calvin taught?
Or do we have a say in it?

Do we have free will to choose, or do we not?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes I believe that.
I do not believe that it is as simple as
"either / or" I believe it is both.
I think we see this in the "Song Of Solomon."
He calls and He draws, yet she seeks until she finds, He is elusive and runs and hides so that her longing is as great as His is.

Did you choose your husband or did he choose you?
With mine, he chose me..I was very reluctant as I had seen who he 'ran with' and I didn't like him much, or his crowd. I kept putting him off "Sorry busy that night" etc He didn't give up.
But that said, I was the one who chose to marry him and not someone else.
He couldn't have married me unless I agreed.

So, who chose who? ;)

I understand you.
And I agree. BTW, my husband chose me first too. I think men have a better grasp on which woman they can get along with more than women have. And, you see, they turned out to be right.

But you see, @Nancy and I are very sensitive to calvinistic ideas. So if someone says that God chose US, we do have a problem with that because that is what Calvin taught.

He taught that God chose us from before time began and that we have nothing to do with it. IOW, God also chose who is going to hell. This is called Unconditional Election in the TULIP anagram, and it means God chose us and we don't even know why and it's not based on anything.

So I try to be careful as to how I word my soteriology.

 

[Helen]

Philip James said: ↑
Rom 8:28 "We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose"

Imo, the Father enables and draws to Jesus, those who love, or who will love.

Because God knows the end from the beginning, He knows those who will choose life and love and those who will not.

He offers life to all men, and indeed loves all men, but will force no one to respond...

Philip, You sound so much like a Calvanist, I can't even begin.
You really SHOULD study up on calvinism.

IF it's the Father who enables and draws to Jesus, does that mean that HE did not ENABLE those who never get saved?

See. Your words are very important and you have to make sure they represent what you believe.

Okay, why is your default to 'see' Calvinism? :)

Do you not 'see' predestination written clearly in The Book ?
Forget Calvin.

I agree with Philip. especially his last line..
God is a gentleman and will force Himself on no man.
I can't see why he needs to waste time studying Calvinism!! I wouldn't. LOL

( as for your "can't have it both ways" in a post above :)...
I myself believe, as you well know by now...that although they may not be will to choose God ..God will make them willing to choose.
As the Children of Israel...and the song we used to sing long ago.

"God didn't make them go against their will, ...but He just made them willing to go!!" Hornets will do that!!!

 

[Nancy]

You're cheating Stranger!
You can't have it both ways.

If God ELECTS us then we have no free will.
If we have free will then WE choose to follow God.

I see now why I've never understood your position and was always mixed up by your posts.

Are you a Calvinist or not??
If you are, then you can't make up your own rules.
If you're not, then please explain what you mean by God electing us.

Yes GG, cannot have it both ways. Here is a list of scriptures for those who are being taught Calvinism, or thinking about it. If we want the truth, sincerely, the Holy Spirit will "guide us into all truth" !!!

If you are a Calvinist, you would then have to reject these scriptures"

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."
- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Who refuses? God or Man?

I understand you.
And I agree. BTW, my husband chose me first too. I think men have a better grasp on which woman they can get along with more than women have. And, you see, they turned out to be right.

But you see, @Nancy and I are very sensitive to calvinistic ideas. So if someone says that God chose US, we do have a problem with that because that is what Calvin taught.

He taught that God chose us from before time began and that we have nothing to do with it. IOW, God also chose who is going to hell. This is called Unconditional Election in the TULIP anagram, and it means God chose us and we don't even know why and it's not based on anything.

So I try to be careful as to how I word my soteriology.

Since I am no scholar, I can only give my interpretation. My belief is, when the word predestination is used, it is used corporately, not individually. I say God predestined the GENTILES as a whole to be grafted in. And there are way too many scriptures to support that.
Ephesians 2:12 , the audience are Gentiles. Seems so simple to me and if Calvinism were true...I would have a hard time worshiping a God who would do that.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, why is your default to 'see' Calvinism? :)

Do you not 'see' predestination written clearly in The Book ?
Forget Calvin.

I agree with Philip. especially his last line..
God is a gentleman and will force Himself on no man.
I can't see why he needs to waste time studying Calvinism!! I wouldn't. LOL

( as for your "can't have it both ways" in a post above :)...
I myself believe, as you well know by now...that although they may not be will to choose God ..God will make them willing to choose.
As the Children of Israel...and the song we used to sing long ago.

"God didn't make them go against their will, ...but He just made them willing to go!!" Hornets will do that!!!

My default is Calvinism because of the sneakyness of Calvinists.
Most will not even list their denomination --- they'll say Christian but then go ahead and speak of all their own theology. It's almost like a secret club.
Calvinism is once again rearing its ugly head these days. This happens every so often, but then it necessarily has to die because it's such a horrendous teaching.

Your very last line is calvinistic.
This is what is taught --- God does not FORCE anyone to Him, He just MAKES THEM WANT to go to Him. That, Helen, is taking away my free will to really choose. That IS forcing me to go to Him and not leaving the choice up to me.

The word predestined is in the bible. Does it mean God predestined who will be saved? Can He be such a mean God? I thought He was a God of love? If He predestines who will be saved, by default He also predestines who is going to hell.
Predestine is always referring to the Israelites and how God chose to reveal Himself through THEM. It has nothing to do with individual salvation.

The Jews are His ELECTED people. God does NOT individually elect who will be saved.

Calvinism changes the very nature of God.