Who Does The Father Draw?

[GodsGrace]

Are you trying to imput righteousness or are you defining imput?
I'm saying for all purposes, imput and justify are the same.
You are all trying to make something of nothing.
Sounds like you are all bored and need something to argue about, even though it is meaningless.

Who's arguing?
We're just talking here.
Arguing is when everybody is mad at each other.
I'm never mad....

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace
You say: "Agnostics don't hate god" Yeah, god with a lowercase "g" - they have their own idols in their heart like everyone else; but presented with the True GOD they are like every other human being - fallen from right standing. You don't seem to understand the evilness that dwells in each human.

That's pretty funny. About me not understanding evil, I mean.
First I believed in satan,
Then I believed in God.

Evil came first. I understand evil very well.
Anyway, when we speak, you shouldn't think anything about me that I don't post.
I caught you at being a calvinist although you hesitated. I Never hesitate about what I believe.

A fallen nature is one thing LC, total depravity is not found in the bible.
Every verse I've posted so far shows that man can come to God all on his own.

See Acts 2:1-4
The disciples were gathered all in one place. The number can be debated, maybe about 120.

So what did God do in this case? He got all these disciples together in one place and had the Holy Spirit fall on them and they began to speak in other languages, or tongues. Also see Acts 2:17 which comes from Joel 2...God says He will pour out His spirit on ALL MANKIND. His grace is for all who will accept it.


Paul says:

Romans 3:20-24
20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even therighteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Who's arguing?
We're just talking here.
Arguing is when everybody is mad at each other.
I'm never mad....

Yes, I know...
Just meaningless....

 

[LC627]

This is a reference to the world of the Roman Empire.

This is a reference to all the people of Judea.


This should not be taken out of context. At this particular time, the Lord was focused on His apostles, and that they would remain unshaken while He was crucified, and then would depart for Heaven. See the context.

So what exactly does this mean? Does it mean that God elected some for salvation, and others for damnation, or that God -- IN HIS DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE -- knew who would obey the Gospel, and would therefore be appointed to receive eternal life? Since Scripture cannot contradict itself, and Christians are elected according to foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2), there is no conflict between divine foreknowledge and obedience to the Gospel

Strong's Concordance
tassó: to draw up in order, arrange
Original Word: τάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tassó
Phonetic Spelling: (tas'-so)
Short Definition: I assign, arrange
Definition: (a) I assign, arrange, (b) I determine; mid: I appoint.

But when we come to the finished work of Christ, it is an entirely different matter. And even the lexicons confirm that Jesus is speaking about all the inhabitants of the earth in John 3:17:For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

To "condemn the world" can mean nothing other than the whole world of humanity (since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God). Therefore "the world (Gk kosmos) through Him might be saved" can also mean nothing less than the whole world of humanity.

Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2889: κόσμος
κόσμος, κόσμου, ὁ;
5. the inhabitants of the world:
θέατρονἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καίἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race... John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9;

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. (John 17:18)

Thank you for your reply, it is much appreciated and I see you do put work into your post. When people state that it was by foreknowledge that God predestined people, that contradicts the fallen state of man who is dead in his sins. How can a sinner who is naturally an enemy of God bring life to himself to believe the Gospel in his own fallen, evil state? I believe what it all comes down to is how one views mankind. I believe we are totally depraved, others may believe that although fallen we can still have good in us. The will of man is in bondage. Therefore, I take the position that God is the One who convicts us to the light of the Gospel. Those who believe in predestination out of foreknowledge still must answer those who attack God's character for creating the world knowing many souls would be damned. Whatever way you look at predestination there is no injustice with God. Wages of sin is death and the grace we have in Christ we do not deserve.

 

[LC627]

Can Gods existence truly be "proven" in the creation?? At best, you would provide evidence of design, at which point the recipient would point to any number of "gods" than just that of the Bible as the designer. So if you can boil down what exactly makes your God district from all others beyond "repentance", what would be your response? I have given my own response in a few YouTube hangouts for instance that were chock full of atheists, and none of them ever attempted to give a rebuttal.

If God's creation leaves mankind without excuse for not knowing Him, then I would say yes. Debating with others on the existence of God is like chasing the wind. We can lay out all the knowledge we know and yet even if you were to convince them there is a God, can you convince them to repent and submit to God? No. None of us can. My Christian Evidences class in college was a draining class going over all the arguments for the existence of God because we can't "book smart" people into the Kingdom. It takes the conviction of the Holy Spirit and my main focus in life is sharing the Gospel, an experience from God will prove to them He is real.

My response to why my God is different from all others goes back to my faith in Him as the One and only Creator of all the universe. I have felt God's conviction in my life, His presence, I've seen Him protect me and my family. I'm not sure if that is good enough for you but I'll end with this. The Gospel (the cross) is foolishness to those who are perishing, the just must live by faith. Becoming a new creation in Christ is evident change.

 

[LC627]

That's pretty funny. About me not understanding evil, I mean.
First I believed in satan,
Then I believed in God.

Evil came first. I understand evil very well.
Anyway, when we speak, you shouldn't think anything about me that I don't post.
I caught you at being a calvinist although you hesitated. I Never hesitate about what I believe.

A fallen nature is one thing LC, total depravity is not found in the bible.
Every verse I've posted so far shows that man can come to God all on his own.

See Acts 2:1-4
The disciples were gathered all in one place. The number can be debated, maybe about 120.

So what did God do in this case? He got all these disciples together in one place and had the Holy Spirit fall on them and they began to speak in other languages, or tongues. Also see Acts 2:17 which comes from Joel 2...God says He will pour out His spirit on ALL MANKIND. His grace is for all who will accept it.


Paul says:

Romans 3:20-24
20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even therighteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

The word trinity isn't in the bible either.
I guess you're just the bee's knees then. You heard the Gospel and responded all on your own. How cool, how amazing, to be dead in sin and yet raise yourself to the life of faith on your own choosing/doing.

 

[Enoch111]

When people state that it was by foreknowledge that God predestined people, that contradicts the fallen state of man who is dead in his sins.

No, it does not contradict the fallen state of man, but it does show that God knows the end from the beginning: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet 1:1,2)

How can a sinner who is naturally an enemy of God bring life to himself to believe the Gospel in his own fallen, evil state?

This question is fully answered by Paul in Romans 10. While he does not refer to the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-11)in this section, he shows us the power of the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation -- Rom 1:16):
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

 

[Mjh29]

No, it does not contradict the fallen state of man, but it does show that God knows the end from the beginning: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet 1:1,2)

This question is fully answered by Paul in Romans 10. While he does not refer to the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-11)in this section, he shows us the power of the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation -- Rom 1:16):
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Here is the problem, though. In Romans 9, Paul explains how God chooses Sinners because of His purpose, not because of any forseen good

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

If you read the 2 chapters together, you can see that Paul is really saying that we only confess and believe because God has changed our want to. He has changed our will, and now we willingly will the will of God.

 

[Stranger]

No, it does not contradict the fallen state of man, but it does show that God knows the end from the beginning: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet 1:1,2)

This question is fully answered by Paul in Romans 10. While he does not refer to the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-11)in this section, he shows us the power of the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation -- Rom 1:16):
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

This is nothing but the emphasis on mans part in the salvation process. The part where he does exercise his will. But something else has gone before that. The choosing of God and the work of the Spirit in the life of the one chosen.

(2 Thess. 2:13) "...because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and believe of the truth."

Stranger

 

[Dcopymope]

If God's creation leaves mankind without excuse for not knowing Him, then I would say yes. Debating with others on the existence of God is like chasing the wind. We can lay out all the knowledge we know and yet even if you were to convince them there is a God, can you convince them to repent and submit to God? No. None of us can. My Christian Evidences class in college was a draining class going over all the arguments for the existence of God because we can't "book smart" people into the Kingdom. It takes the conviction of the Holy Spirit and my main focus in life is sharing the Gospel, an experience from God will prove to them He is real.

My response to why my God is different from all others goes back to my faith in Him as the One and only Creator of all the universe. I have felt God's conviction in my life, His presence, I've seen Him protect me and my family. I'm not sure if that is good enough for you but I'll end with this. The Gospel (the cross) is foolishness to those who are perishing, the just must live by faith. Becoming a new creation in Christ is evident change.

It would be good enough for me being a believer, but just giving a testimony may not be enough for an unbeliever, specifically the "atheist" ones looking for something more concrete than hearsay as to what distinguishes your God from other "gods" beyond "repentance" or the gospel message that they probably heard 100 times over.

 

[Triumph1300]

It would be good enough for me being a believer, but just giving a testimony may not be enough for an unbeliever, specifically the "atheist" ones looking for something more concrete than hearsay as to what distinguishes your God from other "gods" beyond "repentance" or the gospel message that they probably heard 100 times over.

Only the Holy Spirit can take care of that.

 

[LC627]

No, it does not contradict the fallen state of man, but it does show that God knows the end from the beginning: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet 1:1,2)

This question is fully answered by Paul in Romans 10. While he does not refer to the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-11)in this section, he shows us the power of the Gospel (which is the power of God unto salvation -- Rom 1:16):
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Why is it that you felt convicted for your sin and others do not? It certainly wasn't of your own doing. As humans we are all equally separated from God and dead in sin, so what's different about you? A person in a fallen state of being cannot create conviction that goes against its broken, sin stained nature. How did you "jump start" your spirit to life enough to see your sins and repent when it has been dead your whole life?

Conviction is from God and is a must for repentance, without it no one would repent.

 

[APAK]

The answer: Daily repentance......daily repentance......

(Not much preaching on this at all these days.)

Triumph biker: Not intentioning on prying into your personal life, although I would like to know why you repent every day or you need to repent every day?

Thanks,

APAK

 

[APAK]

@Triumph1300 ...besides by bad English in my last post which should have been the word 'intending,' I just was very curious in my query to you because non-habitual unintentional sin is not the same as habitual intentional sin that may require repentance.....Christ did atone for our sins....and repentance means 'turning around' and returning, because of a break in fellowship with God that he will reveal to us, not by us....

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Triumph1300]

Triumph biker: Not intentioning on prying into your personal life, although I would like to know why you repent every day or you need to repent every day?

Thanks,

APAK

Was in intended to be a response to a previous post.
Not in relation to myself, even though I know I'm a sinner and do repent off and on, but not daily.

 

[Enoch111]

(2 Thess. 2:13) "...because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and believe of the truth."

Please note "...salvation through sanctification of the Spirit". It does not say "...chosen you to salvation through justification by grace through faith". BIG DIFFERENCE.

And this lines up with the truth that election and predestination are for sanctification and ultimate glorification -- the perfection of the saints.

The order of salvation is given in Rom 8:29,30, and the purpose of predestination is also clearly spelled out, and divine foreknowledge plays a part in this: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So where does sanctification fit?

Called--->justified--->sanctified--->glorified--->predestined for perfection ("we shall be like Him"). Therefore we have this passage (1 John 3:1-3):

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[Stranger]

Please note "...salvation through sanctification of the Spirit". It does not say "...chosen you to salvation through justification by grace through faith". BIG DIFFERENCE.

And this lines up with the truth that election and predestination are for sanctification and ultimate glorification -- the perfection of the saints.

The order of salvation is given in Rom 8:29,30, and the purpose of predestination is also clearly spelled out, and divine foreknowledge plays a part in this: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So where does sanctification fit?

Called--->justified--->sanctified--->glorified--->predestined for perfection ("we shall be like Him"). Therefore we have this passage (1 John 3:1-3):

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

I did note what it says as I am the one who gave it. (2 Thess. 2:13) "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

You confuse the operation here. You say it lines up with election, and predestination, which are for sanctification and glorification. But the 'sanctification' of the believer is not being addressed. The 'sanctification' of the Spirit is.

The order is clear. God chose the believer, the Holy Ghost set apart that believer, resulting in the believer believing the truth.

God not only chooses the believer but He has chosen they way in which the believer comes into that salvation.

Stranger

 

[Enoch111]

But the 'sanctification' of the believer is not being addressed. The 'sanctification' of the Spirit is.

Since it is the Holy Spirit who sanctifies believers, it is the sanctification of believers by or through the Holy Spirit. That's all.

 

[Stranger]

Since it is the Holy Spirit who sanctifies believers, it is the sanctification of believers by or through the Holy Spirit. That's all.

Again you are confusing the operation of the Spirit. The believers sanctification is not the same as the Holy Spirit setting apart those whom God has chosen. The believers sanctification is deliverance from the world, flesh, and devil. The Holy Ghost's act in (2 Thess. 2:13) is affecting the one who is elect to the degree that he believes.

So, that is not all.

Stranger