Who Does The Father Draw?

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Helen

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I haven't thought of this subject since college. A campus ministry discipled me, that believed in predestination, and I had never heard of the term. The more I learned about it, and hung out with my friends there, they were really good people, the more I believed it. So I didn't understand when I told other friends and family about it, they thought I was better then them. If I was as Christ-like back then as I pray people see now, I would have told them, "Well, if you accept Jesus, you don't have to worry about it." :)

As my maturity grew and I learned A LOT more about God's Word, I have come to conclude predestination as you see it here. Because the Bible teaches both. God chooses those who already knows will choose Him. Praise an omniscient, merciful Father who draws everyone and has has chosen those who He already knows will choose Him. He also gives men a free will to not choose His drawing, like turning away a gift from somebody.

I just go back to the basics.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

"Whoever" believes is clear to me. :)


I see we have a new friend here. Bless you!
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LC627

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You're cheating Stranger!
You can't have it both ways.

If God ELECTS us then we have no free will.
If we have free will then WE choose to follow God.

I see now why I've never understood your position and was always mixed up by your posts.

Are you a calvinist or not??
If you are, then you can't make up your own rules.

If you're not, then please explain what you mean by God electing us.

Humans are free in action/thought. We can do whatever we want but we are not free in our spiritual condition. We all are "slaves to sin" John 8:34. Our will is in bondage to sin and under its influence. We are all inmates held in sins prison in an open world.

Apart from Christ, humans are evil and fallen. Jesus would not be setting us free if we were already truly free. (John 8:35,36)

Romans 8:29,30 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
 
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LC627

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(John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

(John 6:37) "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Jesus Christ is the One the Father will draw all to. But it is the Fathers decision who comes to Christ, His decision as to who He draws. At the same time, any who come to Christ, He will receive.

You have both election and man's will covered.

Stranger
A M E N!
 

Nancy

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Oh, i'm not liking my two favorite warrior sisters at odds. :(
 

Helen

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Oh, i'm not liking my two favorite warrior sisters at odds. :(

Oh Nancy, you have no idea. LOL
This is tame for us..eh @GodsGrace a long time ago we would go at it hammer and tongs...and it did get quite heated and often angry and nasty.

But I am sure Fran will say it was just me who got angry, but don't believe her.

No, we know each other now..and we are not afraid to disagree.
Thankfully have do have the grace to disagree and still stay friends.
Just like her and Rollo...they do not always agree either.

Peace.....H x
 
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LC627

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In the human heart there is no desire for God or submission to Him. Humans in their natural state are enemies of God and children of the devil seeking out their own fallen lust. No human would ever repent and come to faith unless it was God drawing them to Himself. People are not lining up to repent and profess Christ. Can we understand everything about God? No. Not at all, our knowledge is limited but it is very clear that mankind is completely fallen and naturally rebellious against God and only He can convict the human heart towards true repentance.

One thing I ask people who ask me about how to become a Christian is, "Do you know you are a sinner?" If they try to justify their actions or can't say yes then they're not ready - the conviction is not there.

1 John 4:10 - If we say, "We don't have any sin," we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
 
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Nancy

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Oh Nancy, you have no idea. LOL
This is tame for us..eh @GodsGrace a long time ago we would go at it hammer and tongs...and it did get quite heated and often angry and nasty.

But I am sure Fran will say it was just me who got angry, but don't believe her.

No, we know each other now..and we are not afraid to disagree.
Thankfully have do have the grace to disagree and still stay friends.
Just like her and Rollo...they do not always agree either.

Peace.....H x

Okay, I know it is inevitable with all of us on here, I have had an attack or two. Pretty much ignore those, unless it changes core Christian beliefs! I am glad you and GG know each other enough to speak openly like that, now let's all go back to the play box :D
 
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Philip James

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I think the problem is that you don't understand what Calvin taught.
I say this because your post above is so confusing that I can't really answer to it.

Tell me if you agree with the following:

The anagram for calvinism is the TULIP. It's much more complicated than this, but this is the simple form...

T: Total Depravity
Man was born TOTALLY depraved. So depraved that he cannot raise himself up to know God or to accept God. God must raise a man up to meet Him or that man will NEVER attain to God because of his totally depraved nature. I said TOTALLY.

U: Unconditional Election
God choose, from before time, who will be saved by Him. This choice is not based on anyting..it is unconditional. Man has no say in this decision. God chooses who will be saved and who will be damned, no part of this choice is left to man. God alone makes the choice.

L: Limited Atonement
Jesus died ONLY for the persons that God elected to be saved from before time, as in the U. Jesus DID NOT die for any human being that wishes to be saved. They may not call on His name. ONLY those who were chosen by God can avail themselves of the atonement of Christ. No one else.

I: Irresistible Grace
God not only pours His grace on those He elects, but His grace is irrisistible. The person cannot say no to it...the person thinks they WANT to do something, bur really it's God making them do it and in a very sneaky way.

P: Perseverance of the Saints
Those that God chooses will make it to the end. This is where the idea of eternal security, or OSAS, comes from. And, just like all of Calvin's teachings, this one is also not biblically correct. AND, to persevere, it is necessary to do God's works.
Yes, works. Quite a conflict of ideas, right?


Some day, when you have nothing to do, read Calvin's Institutes. You'll be pretty horrified and you'll forever watch your language when speaking about spirituality.

Here's one: 3.24.8

Immediately, Calvin brings up Jesus’ words in Matthew 22:14: “Many are called, but few are chosen.” Does this not contradict Calvin’s teaching that God calls only the elect, and does this not indicate that God desires many more to be saved than only the elect? Not at all, says Calvin, for

there are two species of calling—there is a universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom He designs the call to be a savour of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation.

Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit He causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts.7


The “special call,” or efficacious call, which consists of both the preaching of the gospel and the “internal illumination of the Spirit,”8 is for the elect alone. The call in the preaching comes also to many reprobates, but God’s “design” with the call to them is that it be to them a savour of death and the ground of worse condemnation. Calvin does not regard the external call of the gospel as grace to all hearers or as an expression of God’s sincere desire to save all.

As the Lord by the efficacy of His calling accomplishes towards His elect the salvation to which He had by His eternal counsel destined them, so He has judgments against the reprobate, by which He executes His counsel concerning them. Those, therefore, whom He has created for dishonour during life and destruction at death, that they may be vessels of wrath and examples of severity, in bringing to their doom, He at one time deprives of the means of hearing His word, at another by the preaching of it blinds and stupefies them the more.9

source: http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/calvinsdoctrineofcall.html#.W0orUNUzZOc


part 1 of 2

If this is an accurate summary of Calvinist theology then I am definately not Calvinist...

As far as predestination is concerned, i see it as God knows the end from the beginning... He knows everyone who will join Him in eternity. He knows them before they were even born.
It is in this sense, that is from an eternal perspective , that one can say, these are His chosen people, the elect, the saved, the victors...
That does NOT mean they had/have no choice but that they have/will have chosen wisely...

An anology: if I taped a football game, and just as Im about to watch it someone says ' hey did you see the Bombers win last night?'
Well now I know the end from the beginning, that the Bombers are predestined to win the match and as I watch the game, I can see how the choices and actions of the coaches and players bring about that result...

Peace!
 
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Dcopymope

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I vehemently disagree with this. I believe the desire for God is innate to every man. This is why you wil find ackowledging something greater than ourselves in every community of humanity throughout time.

Peace!

default_hmm.gif


(Romans 1:20-21) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: {21} Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."

I recall there being other verses from Paul concerning the innate knowledge of God in all humanity, which is why there will be no excuse on judgement day. They may not have heard of Jesus, but they always knew there was a higher power.
 
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GodsGrace

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If this is an accurate summary of Calvinist theology then I am definately not Calvinist...

As far as predestination is concerned, i see it as God knows the end from the beginning... He knows everyone who will join Him in eternity. He knows them before they were even born.
It is in this sense, that is from an eternal perspective , that one can say, these are His chosen people, the elect, the saved, the victors...
That does NOT mean they had/have no choice but that they have/will have chosen wisely...

An anology: if I taped a football game, and just as Im about to watch it someone says ' hey did you see the Bombers win last night?'
Well now I know the end from the beginning, that the Bombers are predestined to win the match and as I watch the game, I can see how the choices and actions of the coaches and players bring about that result...

Peace!
Yes PJ, not only is it accurate, it's very tame. If you read his writings it gets much worse.

So I'm happy to hear you're not calvinist. This is why:
It changes the nature of God. God is love.
1 John 4:8
How does a God of love predestinate some to hell through no fault of their own??

God plays tricks on the humans He created... Did you read the above post?
Pretty gruesome. And calvinists are proud of themselves because they're able to accept a God that we, mere mortals, are unable to accept.

As to foreknowledge, yes, it's as you explained. A far cry from KNOWING what is going to happen, and CAUSING it to happen.

What is predestined is HOW we are going to be saved,,,i.e. In Christ Jesus.
NOT WHO is going to be saved.

Read it again.
Romans 8:29-30
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
 
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GodsGrace

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Humans are free in action/thought. We can do whatever we want but we are not free in our spiritual condition. We all are "slaves to sin" John 8:34. Our will is in bondage to sin and under its influence. We are all inmates held in sins prison in an open world.

Apart from Christ, humans are evil and fallen. Jesus would not be setting us free if we were already truly free. (John 8:35,36)

Romans 8:29,30 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
What did God foreknow and what did God predestine?
Are you a calvinist? Or do you just not know their theology?
 

Nancy

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Yes PJ, not only is it accurate, it's very tame. If you read his writings it gets much worse.

So I'm happy to hear you're not calvinist. This is why:
It changes the nature of God. God is love.
1 John 4:8
How does a God of love predestinate some to hell through no fault of their own??

God plays tricks on the humans He created... Did you read the above post?
Pretty gruesome. And calvinists are proud of themselves because they're able to accept a God that we, mere mortals, are unable to accept.

As to foreknowledge, yes, it's as you explained. A far cry from KNOWING what is going to happen, and CAUSING it to happen.

What is predestined is HOW we are going to be saved,,,i.e. In Christ Jesus.
NOT WHO is going to be saved.

Read it again.
Romans 8:29-30
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

"So I'm happy to hear you're not calvinist. This is why:
It changes the nature of God. God is love.
1 John 4:8
How does a God of love predestinate some to hell through no fault of their own??"
Why do not others see how horrible this doctrine is??
Great post @GodsGrace
 
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lforrest

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How do you have it both ways?

Does God choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell as Calvin taught?
Or do we have a say in it?

Do we have free will to choose, or do we not?

I think it depends on the perspective. From our perspective it is our free will. From God's it is election.
 
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LC627

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I vehemently disagree with this. I believe the desire for God is innate to every man. This is why you wil find ackowledging something greater than ourselves in every community of humanity throughout time.

Peace!
Acknowledging "something greater" is different than submission to the One Lord and Savior. Their acknowledgement is really towards demons and false gods - not the True Messiah
 
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