Who is a “Christian”?

[DoveSpirit05]

You were the one talking about "Christians". As I said the word, Christian, appears only three times in the Bible and in none of those appearances does the scripture say what you say it does. You mentioned or paraphrased ome other verses about "believers", but those verses do not use the word, Christian, at all. Is every one labeled with the word, Christian, a believer, and vice versa. You are trying to show something by the scriptures without connecting all of the dots. We live by faith so there may really be some gaps in our understanding. You, apparently, are something other than a Christian or than a follower of Christ or a believer in God and His Son. You really cannot discredit God's message with your logic even though you don't believe it. There are many of us here who do.


Generalizing to include all bearing that label, Christian, in your presumptions is not how things are. Not every believer has everything right according to God, and not everyone who really believes is on the same level in their walk with God.

As to providing, as you call it, Bible is not a necessity. What is necessary is that person continues to grow while he still has time. The only accounting required is NOT to you nor to me, but in the end of the matter, to God. You are not Him.


Who says that many of them are not indeed examining themselves and proving themselves... just because you are unable to see it and they might be refusing to show you what they are doing? Your spirit of inquiry is NOT God's Spirit, so you could not recognize what they are or what they are not in any case. It is God's business.

Don't worry bout it man he's creating the '' NO REAL SCOTTSMAN FALLACY''

 

[CNKW3]

Don't worry bout it man he's creating the '' NO REAL SCOTTSMAN FALLACY''

That sounds cool.
Show me HOW I’m creating a......”no real Scotsman fallacy”.

Under the new covenant beginning on Pentecost did everyone have to....
Hear
Believe
Repent
Be baptized
In order to have sins removed?
Yes or no?

 

[CNKW3]

Hello Not me,

He did three things:
He confessed his own unrighteousnes
He confessed that Jesus is the Son of God
He asked Jesus for mercy...

Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

One thing the thief DIDN'T do that you have to do....
OBEY THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.
The thief had not been presented with the gospel. How could he? Jesus had not been resurrected yet.

 

[CNKW3]

Absolutely, so true. All the elements necessary for Salvation.

I see both faith and works in there too. For the faith of his heart (faith) caused him to turn (work) to Christ.

Blessings in Christ, Not me

After Jesus was resurrected he presented the gospel and said
He that believes AND IS baptized shall be saved..
Do you not consider his words after his resurrection necessary elements for salvation?

 

[Not me]

After Jesus was resurrected he presented the gospel and said
He that believes AND IS baptized shall be saved..
Do you not consider his words after his resurrection necessary elements for salvation?

The salvation of the thief on the cross was being discussed. If you wish to believe that salvation for the thief was different than salvation for others, that’s fine.

To be continued;

(Pushed the post button by mistake)

Anyways, I am quite confident that had the guards cut him down, He would have been baptized in Christ name as an outward sign of the salvation he already possessed

As I am quite sure Jesus would have told Him to “go and sin no more”

But my question to you is;

Why do you do the exact same thing you accuse a brother of doing, by taking one scripture and elevating it and than lay a charge against a brother in Christ of something you have no idea whether he believes or not.

But anyways, blessings to you as we search and follow after Christ, Not me

 

[amadeus]

That sounds cool.
Show me HOW I’m creating a......”no real Scotsman fallacy”.

Under the new covenant beginning on Pentecost did everyone have to....
Hear
Believe
Repent
Be baptized
In order to have sins removed?
Yes or no?

Actually all a person has to do is seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and then...

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

The Holy Spirit received when we are seeking those first things first may indeed lead us to do one or more those things you suggest, but if we have followed God's order and continuing in it, will He not then add anything else He considers important or necessary?

 

[amadeus]

One thing the thief DIDN'T do that you have to do....
OBEY THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.
The thief had not been presented with the gospel. How could he? Jesus had not been resurrected yet.

You should slow a little bit and seek God before responding, my friend. The "Gospel" is the "good tidings" or "good news", which certainly arrived when Jesus was born to Mary in Bethlehem was announced to people. They were rejoicing having heard that long before Jesus was crucified and before He resurrected from the dead. We rejoice upon hearing the "good tiding" but we do not obey those tidings. We obey God, which is quite a different thing.

As to the thief on the cross he certainly obeyed God by submitting himself even in death and asking effectively for mercy. You should not any case put a time limit on God. Is our God, almighty God, controlled or limited by time?

 

[DoveSpirit05]

ill just put dis here as a reminder!!

Rom 14:10-13
" But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."

 

[CNKW3]

The salvation of the thief on the cross was being discussed. If you wish to believe that salvation for the thief was different than salvation for others, that’s fine.

To be continued;

(Pushed the post button by mistake)

Anyways, I am quite confident that had the guards cut him down, He would have been baptized in Christ name as an outward sign of the salvation he already possessed

As I am quite sure Jesus would have told Him to “go and sin no more”

But my question to you is;

Why do you do the exact same thing you accuse a brother of doing, by taking one scripture and elevating it and than lay a charge against a brother in Christ of something you have no idea whether he believes or not.

But anyways, blessings to you as we search and follow after Christ, Not me

Of course it was different for the thief! Were the gentiles in the Old Testament required to observe the Passover? What about tithing, etc?
Mk 2 tells us that Christ had power ON EARTH to forgive sins. Is he on earth today? No. How does he forgive sins today? Through his word he left us the same word that will judge us in the end. Jn 12:48
And TODAY under the NEW COVENANT, not the one the thief lived under, we are told to obey the gospel. The thief was NEVER told that.

He that believes and is baptized shall be saved!
From this we can learn that belief and baptism come BEFORE not AFTER salvation. I did not say that this is ALL that is required. I do not take passages to the exclusion of others. I can present passage after passage that supports Mk 16:16.
So, if you believe salvation comes BEFORE baptism you are in error and need to make a change.

 

[CNKW3]

Actually all a person has to do is seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and then...

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

The Holy Spirit received when we are seeking those first things first may indeed lead us to do one or more those things you suggest, but if we have followed God's order and continuing in it, will He not then add anything else He considers important or necessary?

The big question is....
HOW does one “seek first his kingdom”?
If Christ says..
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
And then you say...
He that believes, is saved and then be baptized.
Are you seeking first his kingdom?
The answer is...
NO WAY. you are seeking first YOUR own way not Gods

 

[CNKW3]

You should slow a little bit and seek God before responding, my friend. The "Gospel" is the "good tidings" or "good news", which certainly arrived when Jesus was born to Mary in Bethlehem was announced to people. They were rejoicing having heard that long before Jesus was crucified and before He resurrected from the dead. We rejoice upon hearing the "good tiding" but we do not obey those tidings. We obey God, which is quite a different thing.

As to the thief on the cross he certainly obeyed God by submitting himself even in death and asking effectively for mercy. You should not any case put a time limit on God. Is our God, almighty God, controlled or limited by time?

Then explain what Paul meant in 2 thes when he said..
Christ will come to take vengeance on those who know not God and OBEY not the gospel of Christ.
How does one....
Obey the gospel?

In Mk 16 Christ commanded that the gospel be preached to all nations. He then followed that with 16:16

Back in Matt 10 when he sent the 12 out to preach he didn’t tell them to preach “the gospel”. Why not if it was available back then if there was no change in message.

 

[amadeus]

The big question is....
HOW does one “seek first his kingdom”?
If Christ says..
He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.
And then you say...
He that believes, is saved and then be baptized.
Are you seeking first his kingdom?
The answer is...
NO WAY. you are seeking first YOUR own way not Gods

You keep on saying "you" as if it applied to me, @amadeus . I did not say those things... You did presenting them as if I had done it. I did not.

I don't try seek Him first my own way but if I were to do so, I would be in trouble with Him and so would anyone else that does it that way.

If we are really 'seeking His kingdom first' in His Way, then He will add 'all of these things' but we don't then He won't. That is the answer to what you call "The big question".

When and if we are in doubt as to How to seek His kingdom first, why not ask Him for help?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

 

[amadeus]

Then explain what Paul meant in 2 thes when he said..
Christ will come to take vengeance on those who know not God and OBEY not the gospel of Christ.
How does one....
Obey the gospel?

On this one I certainly hear you. In error I was coming only from the definitions given by Strong's for the word translated in the NT as "gospel", in that it is not shown to be a message of right or wrong, but simply of good tidings. This would not be a problem if obedience were not also asked. How does on obey "good tidings"?

OBEY

uJpakouvw Hupakouo (hoop-ak-oo'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 5219

1. 
   
   
   • to listen, to harken
     1. of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
   • to harken to a command
     1. to obey, be obedient to, submit to

GOSPEL
eujaggevlion Euaggelion (yoo-ang-ghel'-ee-on);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 2098

1. a reward for good tidings
2. good tidings
   1. the glad tidings of the kingdom of God soon to be set up, and subsequently also of Jesus the Messiah, the founder of this kingdom. After the death of Christ, the term comprises also the preaching of (concerning) Jesus Christ as having suffered death on the cross to procure eternal salvation for the men in the kingdom of God, but as restored to life and exalted to the right hand of God in heaven, thence to return in majesty to consummate the kingdom of God
   2. the glad tidings of salvation through Christ
   3. the proclamation of the grace of God manifest and pledged in Christ
   4. the gospel
   5. as the messianic rank of Jesus was proved by his words, his deeds, and his death, the narrative of the sayings, deeds, and death of Jesus Christ came to be called the gospel or glad tidings

Thank you for bringing this difference, especially the wording of I Thess 1:8, to my attention.

In Mk 16 Christ commanded that the gospel be preached to all nations. He then followed that with 16:16

Back in Matt 10 when he sent the 12 out to preach he didn’t tell them to preach “the gospel”. Why not if it was available back then if there was no change in message.

Of course before Jesus came and overcame the world and before He laid his body down to be crucified there was that which was before them seen in the prophecies... including the word of John the Baptist.

The lack of time restraints on God certainly still applies. The limits on God are those He placed on Himself by His own Word and any limits man puts on God as allowed by the authority God gave to every man. [/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Philip James]

Do you not consider his words after his resurrection necessary elements for salvation?

Yes.

However He 'presented HIS gospel' from HIS very birth, and one could argue right from the beginning...

Peace be with you!

 

[Philip James]

This would not be a problem if obedience were not also asked. How does on obey "good tidings"?

Hello brother,

By believing them and rejoicing!

Peace be with you!

 

[Not me]

Of course it was different for the thief! Were the gentiles in the Old Testament required to observe the Passover? What about tithing, etc?
Mk 2 tells us that Christ had power ON EARTH to forgive sins. Is he on earth today? No. How does he forgive sins today? Through his word he left us the same word that will judge us in the end. Jn 12:48
And TODAY under the NEW COVENANT, not the one the thief lived under, we are told to obey the gospel. The thief was NEVER told that.

He that believes and is baptized shall be saved!
From this we can learn that belief and baptism come BEFORE not AFTER salvation. I did not say that this is ALL that is required. I do not take passages to the exclusion of others. I can present passage after passage that supports Mk 16:16.
So, if you believe salvation comes BEFORE baptism you are in error and need to make a change.

It is a most blessed to know that God will perfect that which concerns the willing...Be blessed in Christ, Not me

 

[CNKW3]

You keep on saying "you" as if it applied to me, @amadeus . I did not say those things... You did presenting them as if I had done it. I did not.

So you don’t believe that one is saved BEFORE water baptism?

I don't try seek Him first my own way but if I were to do so, I would be in trouble with Him and so would anyone else that does it that way.

If we are really 'seeking His kingdom first' in His Way, then He will add 'all of these things' but we don't then He won't. That is the answer to what you call "The big question".

When and if we are in doubt as to How to seek His kingdom first, why not ask Him for help?

He’s already provided ALL the help we need. It’s in the Bible, the book he left us.
Peter said...
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Paul said..
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

You MUST ask according to HIS WILL. 1 Jn 5:14.
How do we know his will? Through his word he gave us. You and others just make up your own will and then say it is his.

 

[CNKW3]

On this one I certainly hear you. In error I was coming only from the definitions given by Strong's for the word translated in the NT as "gospel", in that it is not shown to be a message of right or wrong, but simply of good tidings. This would not be a problem if obedience were not also asked. How does on obey "good tidings"?

OBEY

uJpakouvw Hupakouo (hoop-ak-oo'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 5219

1. 
   
   
   • to listen, to harken
     1. of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)
   • to harken to a command
     1. to obey, be obedient to, submit to

GOSPEL
eujaggevlion Euaggelion (yoo-ang-ghel'-ee-on);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 2098

1. a reward for good tidings
2. good tidings
   1. the glad tidings of the kingdom of God soon to be set up, and subsequently also of Jesus the Messiah, the founder of this kingdom. After the death of Christ, the term comprises also the preaching of (concerning) Jesus Christ as having suffered death on the cross to procure eternal salvation for the men in the kingdom of God, but as restored to life and exalted to the right hand of God in heaven, thence to return in majesty to consummate the kingdom of God
   2. the glad tidings of salvation through Christ
   3. the proclamation of the grace of God manifest and pledged in Christ
   4. the gospel
   5. as the messianic rank of Jesus was proved by his words, his deeds, and his death, the narrative of the sayings, deeds, and death of Jesus Christ came to be called the gospel or glad tidings

Thank you for bringing this difference, especially the wording of I Thess 1:8, to my attention.

Of course before Jesus came and overcame the world and before He laid his body down to be crucified there was that which was before them seen in the prophecies... including the word of John the Baptist.

The lack of time restraints on God certainly still applies. The limits on God are those He placed on Himself by His own Word and any limits man puts on God as allowed by the authority God gave to every man.

Gospel means....good news.
What is the “good news”? Is it just that Christ came and died and rose again? No!
The “good news” is that mans sins are now forgiven. Acts 3:25,26
How and when does that take place today? After one has heard, believed, repented and been baptized FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. Acts 2:38, 3:19; 22:16.
This is HOW one obeys the “good news”. And this is EXACTLY what everybody did in the book of acts.

 

[CNKW3]

Yes.

However He 'presented HIS gospel' from HIS very birth, and one could argue right from the beginning...

Peace be with you!

Did he EVER tell his jewish audience that they must believe in his resurrection? Rom 10:9
His own 12 disciples didn’t even believe in his resurrection. But he said they were clean. Jn 13
Can we get away with that today? Can we too be clean and NOT believe in the resurrection? Absolutely not. That is the HUGE difference between today and when Jesus walked this earth.
He had not died and been raised from the dead.
All they had to do was “believe that I am he”. Jn 8: 24
Today...to “believe that i am he” is to believe in his resurrection. If you don’t believe in that, you are lost.

 

[CNKW3]

It is a most blessed to know that God will perfect that which concerns the willing...Be blessed in Christ, Not me

Where’s your verse or verses for that teaching?