Who is Israel?

[Saint]

All over, but most of them settled in Asia Minor and Europe, (i.e., the ten tribes which is the "house of Israel" per God's Word after the kingdom split).

If they settled in Europe which I agree with, then because Europe migrated to the United State, this country suddenly became the home to a great multitude of Hebrews.

Another question; I’m sure that you have studied the migration of the Lost House of Israel into the United Kingdom; what are your thoughts on this?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, veteran.

So now we should re-interpret the whole idea of Biblical names, and apply some type of ancient Indian naming convention like 'two dogs running' or 'man that chops wood' instead of staying to how God's Word points to different peoples with different names? Right.

LOL! This argument would be extremely laughable if you weren't being serious! Yes, right! Names MEAN certain things! It doesn't matter whether you want to believe it or not, that's the way people were named back then; it's not an "Indian" thing! Quite frankly, that's the way some people are named today! Just read Genesis chapters 17 through 30 and look at how each son was named at birth! Each name came from a topic in conversation; sometimes, in a prayer!

Thankfully, our Heavenly Father well knew what He was doing when He gave His prophets to write down the geneologies of different peoples with different names, and that's how His Word is very clear that the people called Canaanites were not of the lineage of Israel, and nor were the Kenites.

It was not “our Heavenly Father” who had His prophets “write down the geneologies of different peoples with different names.” God just had His prophets write them down as they were! It was our translators into English who made them different peoples with different names. There are several names that are the same in Hebrew that were written down differently for our English Bibles. For instance, did you know that the name “Edom” is the same as “Adam?” or that “Joash” is the same as “Jehoash?” or that “Hosea” is the same as “Hoshea?” or that “Judah” is the same as “Juda” is the same as “Judas” is the same as “Jude” is the same as “Judea?” or that “Eliah’ is the same as “Elijah?”

The list is seemingly endless! All one has to do is take a name, look it up in Strong’s Concordance (for instance), find the number that keys to the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary in the back, find the Hebrew (or Chaldean) name under that number, and look after the “KJV –“ section at the end of the entry. Here’s an example:

OT:452 'Eliyah (ay-lee-yaw'); or prolonged 'Eliyahuw (ay-lee-yaw'-hoo); from OT:410 and OT:3050; God of Jehovah; Elijah, the name of the famous prophet and of two other Israelites:
KJV - Elijah, Eliah.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Strong’s says that the meaning of the name is “God of Jehovah.” Actually a better rendition of the Hebrew translated into English would be “My God (is) YHVH.”

You will often find that a name in Hebrew has SEVERAL renditions in the English!

Here’s the Hebrew family of words associated with the name of “Qayin” or “Cain,” according to Strong’s:

OT:7013 qayin (kah'-yin); from OT:6969 in the original sense of fixity; a lance (as striking fast):
KJV - spear.

OT:7014 Qayin (kah'-yin); the same as OT:7013 (with a play upon the affinity to OT:7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Palestine, and of an Oriental tribe:
KJV - Cain, Kenite (-s).

OT:7015 qiynaah (kee-naw'); from OT:6969; a dirge (as accompanied by beating the breasts or on instruments):
KJV - lamentation.

OT:7016 Qiynaah (kee-naw'); the same as OT:7015; Kinah, a place in Palestine:
KJV - Kinah.

OT:7017 Qeeyniy (kay-nee'); or Qiyniy (1 Chron 2:55) (kee-nee'); patronymic from OT:7014; a Kenite or member of the tribe of Kajin:
KJV - Kenite.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

OT:7013 is spelled EXACTLY like OT:7014!

OT:7015 and OT:7016 have simply the same spelling in Hebrew except that the hei (similar to our “h”) has been added to the end of the word, and…

OT:7017 has a yud or yod added to the end of the word. The vowel pointing changes according to the usage of the word and other grammar rules. The plural of OT:7017 would add the mem making the word “Qeeyniym” translated “Kenites.” If this were referring to a people from the lineage of Adam or Noach, this translation would be adequate; however, the added yud or yod can refer to possession of OT:7013, and the plural of that would be translated “my-spears.”

Yet per His Word, one can also live in an area as a foreigner and be called by the name of the people of the land, like Moses' father-in-law was, since he was actually of the lineage of Midian, from the lineage of Abraham.

Sounds like grasping for straws, to me. Actually, even when one person from a different people lives among another people, they are still known as from their original people. A case in point is “Uriah the Hittite.” Although he lived in Isra’el and even fought for Isra’el as a member of their army, he was still identified as a “Hittite.”

If you want to deny that God's Word which is very clear that the devil has his own servants on this earth that follow him, that's up to you. Doing that won't change His Word about it though.

In John 8 when Christ called the scribes and Pharisees sons of the 'first' murderer, that was a direct reference to Cain, the first murderer. That's who that "thy seed" of Gen.3:15 represents that God spoke of to that old serpent there.

I don’t deny that there are certain “sons of Belial” who take pleasure in doing evil; however, this is not a governing principle for ALL those who do evil. Secondly, I DO believe that the seed of the woman was the Messiah (the Christ).

This is probably one of the greatest mysteries of this present world since Eden, because God revealed two manner of people upon this earth ordained to be against each other, all the way up to Christ's second coming. One group is His people, and the other group belong to the devil, even as my Lord Jesus revealed in His parable of the tares of the field...

Matt 13:38-40
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom;

but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
(KJV)

Even that being true, you’re misusing Matthew 13:38-40 here. This passage is talking about the time period during the Millennium for it is talking about during Yeshua`s KINGDOM! This was simply a bad choice for a proof text. I don’t deny the dichotomy precisely; I believe that it is correct in principle. The problem, however, is determining who is what.

While there are those who are LOCKED INTO being evil (out of their choice to be so “locked in,” “sons of Belial”), we are wrong and commit a sin when we LABEL people as being so “locked in!” Consider Ephesians 2:1-10:

Ephesians 2:1-10
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

There are people who, although they are currently exhibiting the characteristics of being “children of disobedience” and “children of wrath,” will not stay that way but will, like us, become children of God IN HIS TIMING (not in OURS)! Therefore, we should look at EVERY person as at least a POTENTIAL “child of God” or “son of God!” We don’t KNOW who’s who! God doesn’t give us that information! That’s HIS business, not ours! Furthermore, it is left up to us to introduce that person to God and His Son to do what we can to pave the way for that person to come to God, although we know nothing about God’s decision for that person or His timing in that decision!

This breaks the dichotomy because there are now at least THREE groups: Those who ARE children of God, those who choose NEVER to become children of God (children of the devil), and those who WILL BECOME children of God.

That's why man's wishing to form some kind of super Utopia world brotherhood upon this earth is one huge joke, because the 'emnity' between the two groups will never... be settled by any man nor by any people on earth! Only God through His Son can settle it, and He will settle it. So all of man's ignorance in thinking that all peoples on this earth will be saved is gross blindness.

I agree! That’s why the Millennium is marked with a CONTROLLED peace, a FORCED peace (as seen in this parable and in Psalm 2:1-12 and 1 Cor. 15:20-28)! There will be sowed into His field “children of the wicked one” who will not submit to His leadership in their hearts, although they will be FORCED to bow their knees to the King of kings.

 

[veteran]

If they settled in Europe which I agree with, then because Europe migrated to the United State, this country suddenly became the home to a great multitude of Hebrews.

Another question; I’m sure that you have studied the migration of the Lost House of Israel into the United Kingdom; what are your thoughts on this?

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

My study of the migrations of the ten lost tribes of Israel and who they would become, originates from following what God foretold about them through His OT prophets, and keeping His prophecies specifically to them distinct from His prophecies about and to Judah ("house of Judah" or Jews).

I believe the Gen.48 prophecy about Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations", and his brother Manasseh also who was to become "great" was fulfilled in the Christian West by The Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's historically the majority of who and where The Gospel went to after most in Jerusalem rejected it.

The established evidence of that is per God's Promise by Faith first given through Abraham, and His Promises to the part of Israel that is the remnant according to the election of grace (Rom.11:1-5). After Solomon's kingdom was split, and Judah went captive to Babylon, the Promises are no longer to be found in the holy land, but among those in the Christian west under The Gospel of Jesus Christ, establishing the western Christian nations. And from there The Gospel has gone out to all other nations and peoples.

 

[Saint]

Believing Jews are part of the Romans 11:1-5 remnant of election according to grace by God's Hand. Apostle Paul himself was a Jew, born of the tribe of Benjamin.

The tribes of Benjamin and many of Levi were joined with the tribe of Judah under the house of David at Jerusalem after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms. The "kingdom of Judah" is who became the Jews, which is how Apostle Paul could claim to be both... a Jew and a descendent from Benjamin. The name Jew originated from the sole tribe of Judah.

Thus the Jews, or "house of Judah", only represent ONE portion of the total people of Israel.

The northern kingdom called the "kingdom of Israel" after the split per 1 Kings 11 forward, had nothing to do with the Jews of the southern kingdom at Judeah. Instead, the northen ten tribes under Ephraim as their head tribe were known as Israel.


This is why in the Ezekiel 37 Scripture God declares His Israel as being "two nations" until He joins the two sticks back together again.

Ezek 37:19-22
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
(KJV)


This is why Israel is represented as TWO NATIONS today, not just one. One is under Christ Jesus, and the other one still is not, but will be eventually.

Yeshua came for the Lost House of Israel… He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24 ESV); one major purpose of the first advent was to bring back the Lost Tribes.

And in that day, declares the LORD, you will call me 'My Husband,' and no longer will you call me 'My Baal.' (Hos 2:16 ESV)

And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. (Hos 2:19 ESV)

I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the LORD. (Hos 2:20 ESV)

One major purpose of the death of Yeshua was to fulfill the law of divorce; the bride could not remarry until the Husband had died; in His death Yeshua fulfilled that requirement and the divorced wife can remarried.

Once again Veteran it seems we see pretty much eye to eye on the Lost Tribes and Gods plan for their return.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

Yeshua came for the Lost House of Israel… He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24 ESV); one major purpose of the first advent was to bring back the Lost Tribes.

And in that day, declares the LORD, you will call me 'My Husband,' and no longer will you call me 'My Baal.' (Hos 2:16 ESV)

And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. (Hos 2:19 ESV)

I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the LORD. (Hos 2:20 ESV)

One major purpose of the death of Yeshua was to fulfill the law of divorce; the bride could not remarry until the Husband had died; in His death Yeshua fulfilled that requirement and the divorced wife can remarried.

Once again Veteran it seems we see pretty much eye to eye on the Lost Tribes and Gods plan for their return.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Strange how God worked things that way with our Lord Jesus' death fulfilling those requirements, but that's what He did. He gave the "house of israel" (ten tribes) a bill of divorce...

Jer 3:8
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
(KJV)

Note that even though the majority of the "house of Judah" still rejects Christ Jesus as Messiah, still, God did not give them a symbolic bill of divorce.

Can we see this operation literally in history? I think so.

After God had scattered the majority of the ten tribes to the west from Assyria, they brought their various forms of Baal idol worship with them. Everywhere in Europe prior to Christ's first coming they were following pagan idol worship, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, Odin, Apollos, etc. When our Lord Jesus died on the cross and Christ crucified was preached to them, the majority of them began to put those idols away and they became the western Christian nations of history, just as God pointed to in the Book of Hosea. The history of the 1st century A.D. British Culdee Church is especially interesting, and had a connection with Apostle Paul while he was captive in Rome, through Claudia, Pudens, and Linus (2 Timothy 4:21). The pagan Romans even built the British king captive at Rome a palace to live in (Paladium Brittanicum).

Yet some in that old Baal idol worship rejected the preaching of The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and they are still among us in the West today. Seems like they keep pushing that old era of Baal with false fantasy stories and movies involving sorcerers and the magic arts to make it attractive to little children.

 

[Saint]

What is amazing to me is that this whole biblical perspective on the House of Israel is lost on the Church. I communicate with two very well read and open minded pastors and even though I’ve attempted to wake them up to the details on the lost tribes their minds are closed.

I do communicate with one very enlightened woman in Scotland and she is very much in tune regarding the tribes; of course she lives right in the middle of history and is only a few miles from where the Jacob’s Pillar/Coronation Stone is supposedly located.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

What is amazing to me is that this whole biblical perspective on the House of Israel is lost on the Church. I communicate with two very well read and open minded pastors and even though I’ve attempted to wake them up to the details on the lost tribes their minds are closed.

I do communicate with one very enlightened woman in Scotland and she is very much in tune regarding the tribes; of course she lives right in the middle of history and is only a few miles from where the Jacob’s Pillar/Coronation Stone is supposedly located.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Apparently per Ezek.38-39, most of scattered Israel, and the nations, are not going to be made aware of this matter until Christ's return.

Yet God promised there would always be a remnant of Israel that would know the truth, which points to those who are made aware of this. I myself have been to the old ruins of Zarah-gossa in Spain. God reminded me of that place when the ten lost tribes truth began to get my attention while doing Bible study.

 

[Angelina]

There are some Christians who believe that the Ten tribes of Israel were dispersed into Europe and are somehow now connected to the Western nations, however, the bible says that Jewish ancestry does not make you Israel.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

God's word says that a Remnant of Israel will be saved Romans 9:27

However, the only way the Remnant [which may include the Ten tribes] to be included as Israel now, is to repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and savior. There is no other way. :huh:

John 3
[sup]36 [/sup]He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

1 John 5
[sup]11 [/sup]And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. [sup]12 [/sup]He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. [sup]13 [/sup]These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.


It is interesting to note, that some forums who hold strongly to this theology tend to be white supremacists, racists or anti-Israel... :huh:

Shalom!!!

 

[Saint]

Hi Angelina; if Jewish ancestry does not qualify one to be an Israelite today YHWH might have a difficult time fulfilling His promise to reassemble and remarry the Lost House of Israel. After 2500 odd years I seriously doubt that there many pure blooded Israelites remaining.

Is not Romans saying that the seed is the descendents of Isaac and not necessarily being a descendent of Abraham? Who is considered an Israelite today is subject to much discussion and I don’t think there is any resolution in the matter; no one seems to understand the position of YHWH and how He sees the issue.

So there that is my opinion but what do I know, you know the saying; fools rush in...

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[Angelina]

Hi Saint!

Hi Angelina; if Jewish ancestry does not qualify one to be an Israelite today YHWH might have a difficult time fulfilling His promise to reassemble and remarry the Lost House of Israel.

I doubt that God will ever have a difficult time recognizing his own...

Matthew 3
[sup]7 [/sup]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [sup]8 [/sup]Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, [sup]9[/sup]and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Is not Romans saying that the seed is the descendents of Isaac and not necessarily being a descendent of Abraham?

The seed Romans speaks of here is the children of promise - that promise went all the way down that heritage line from Abraham, to Isaac and then Jacob - for Israel and for the Gentiles..

Romans 9
[sup]22 [/sup]What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [sup]23 [/sup]and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, [sup]24 [/sup]even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

don’t think there is any resolution in the matter; no one seems to understand the position of YHWH and how He sees the issue.

Indeed! :huh: Blessings!!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

... however, the bible says that Jewish ancestry does not make you Israel.

Yes. Obedience to God's covenant is what makes one a citizen of Israel.

I doubt that God will ever have a difficult time recognizing his own...

That is because God's elect are those whom he chooses, or as Paul says, has foreknown. It has nothing to do with the flesh, and never has had anything to do with the flesh.

 

[Angelina]

Amen HeRose!

Just a passing thought - The amount Jewish people who died in the wilderness because of their disobedience and rebellion toward God, would far outnumber the amount of people living in my country. I do not think that today's Jewish bloodline would be any different.

Acts 5
[sup]30[/sup] The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. [sup]31[/sup] God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. [sup]32[/sup] We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Blessings!!!

 

[Saint]

Yes. Obedience to God's covenant is what makes one a citizen of Israel.



That is because God's elect are those whom he chooses, or as Paul says, has foreknown. It has nothing to do with the flesh, and never has had anything to do with the flesh.

Isn't that a little counter to the word of YHWH; if what you say is totally true then there would not have been a distinction between the seed of Abraham. Simply put some were the seed and some were not :unsure:

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

There are some Christians who believe that the Ten tribes of Israel were dispersed into Europe and are somehow now connected to the Western nations, however, the bible says that Jewish ancestry does not make you Israel.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

God's word says that a Remnant of Israel will be saved Romans 9:27

However, the only way the Remnant [which may include the Ten tribes] to be included as Israel now, is to repent and accept Jesus as their Lord and savior. There is no other way. :huh:

John 3
[sup]36 [/sup]He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

1 John 5
[sup]11 [/sup]And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. [sup]12 [/sup]He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. [sup]13 [/sup]These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.


It is interesting to note, that some forums who hold strongly to this theology tend to be white supremacists, racists or anti-Israel... :huh:

Shalom!!!

There indeed has been some Christian believers, throughout Christian history, that have known that the ten tribes were scattered primarily to the west, and that independent of Judah's scattering. Even the Scotts in their 1320 A.D. Declaration of Arbroath indicated an understanding of their heritage as Israelites.There's no justification to infer they were white supremacists or anti-Semitic for claiming that.

It's easy to tell one who really has not done thorough Old Testament study in God's prophets, for God foretold how He would scatter the ten tribes and give them a door of hope along with believing Gentiles, and in final gather them together. He said He would gather the seed of the 'house of Israel' (ten tribes) as corn through a sieve, and not the least grain would fall to the ground (Amos 9). And He through Jacob gave the prophecy that Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" and his brother Manasseh would also become "great" (Gen.48).

Neither true Judah nor Gentiles should have a problem with those prophecies, simply because its fulfillment reveals that God keeps His promises, and what He says comes to pass as written. A lot of the propaganda against God's Word concerning the ten lost tribes of the house of Israel comes from Christ's enemies that want to destroy God's people of Israel and setup their 'own' world kingdom over the earth to mimic God's coming Kingdom.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Angelina and HeRoseFromTheDead.

The thing you are missing is that God's "knife" of cutting off those who are not His does not just cut a single way in either direction! It's true and you well realize that God does not separate the Jews from the Gentiles by the blood line, but He also does not separate Jew/Gentile believers from Jew/Gentile non-believers. There's no dichotomy in either direction! There are actually THREE pieces of the "pie": There's the part that you recognize - the Jew/Gentile believers in the Messiah, in Christ; but outside of the Messiah - outside of Christ - there are still two groups, the Jews and the Gentiles. Only WITHIN the Messiah are the two joined as one. The Jews (or rather, the Yisra'eliym or Isra'elis or Isra'elites) still have their promises to which God adheres for the sake of the fathers, their ancestors.

Romans 11 teaches MANY things, but seldom does a believer come to grips with it all:

Rom 11:11-32
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (The RESURRECTION!) 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
NIV

So, God is not through with the blood-line Jews, yet, either! However, the thing to realize is that the believing Jews came BEFORE the believing Gentiles, not only in the first century but also in all the other centuries PRIOR! (And that is "PRIOR." It is not a mistake.) Therefore, they do NOT need to become a "part of the church," which they recognize as a fictitious entity for propagating all sorts of atrocities down through the last two millennia, but they can retain (or rather, regain) their true Jewish heritage while embracing THEIR Messiah Yeshua`! (Veteran, just replace "Jews" with "Isra'elis" and "Jewish" with "Isra'eli." The words in this context apply to both: all twelve - or thirteen - tribes.) God looks at the Jews and all Isra'elis today as very misguided and lost children, and He sees in those children their ancestors! He remembers the promises He made to their ancestors, and He WILL make sure that those promises are fulfilled to that blood-line AS WELL AS the grafted in Gentiles!

 

[veteran]

So, God is not through with the blood-line Jews, yet, either! However, the thing to realize is that the believing Jews came BEFORE the believing Gentiles, not only in the first century but also in all the other centuries PRIOR! (And that is "PRIOR." It is not a mistake.) Therefore, they do NOT need to become a "part of the church," which they recognize as a fictitious entity for propagating all sorts of atrocities down through the last two millennia, but they can retain (or rather, regain) their true Jewish heritage while embracing THEIR Messiah Yeshua`! (Veteran, just replace "Jews" with "Isra'elis" and "Jewish" with "Isra'eli." The words in this context apply to both: all twelve - or thirteen - tribes.) God looks at the Jews and all Isra'elis today as very misguided and lost children, and He sees in those children their ancestors! He remembers the promises He made to their ancestors, and He WILL make sure that those promises are fulfilled to that blood-line AS WELL AS the grafted in Gentiles!

Except for your last paragraph I whole-heartedly agree with you. However, the title of 'Jew' never applied to the ten-tribed northern kingdom of Israel under Jeroboam of Ephraim. The Jewish historian Josephus said that title of Jew began to be used by the returning remnant of Judah after the 70 years Babylon captivity, and all in the land of Judea/Jerusalem took that name, which comes from the sole tribe of Judah. God had already removed all the ten tribes out of the land before... Judah went into their 70 years captivity to Babylon, which means before that title of 'Jew' became popular in Judea. (Documented in 1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 18).

It's later Jews that have mistakenly applied that title to all 12 tribes of Israel, and sometimes even back to Moses, Abraham, and Noah (before Judah even existed). So it's easy to see how that title has been hap-hazardly applied through later history.

Why is this distinction important?

It's because of what you showed in the first part of your post, that God gave specific prophecies involving His chosen people of Israel. And some of those prophecies are separate to the two houses of His chosen people of Israel, a portion of prophecy for Judah, and another portion for Ephraim over the ten tribes. That is especially documented in the Ezekiel 37 chapter with the "two sticks" prophecy about Judah and Ephraim, and in Scripture like Jeremiah 23 about the two sister harlots Aholah (Judah at Jerusalem) and Aholibah (Israel at Samaria). Even in the Book of Hosea the prophecies are distinct and confirm that Judah would not lose their heritage as part original Israel when God split the original kingdom of Israel into two nations after Solomon's days, but that the ten tribes under Ephraim would... lose their heritage as Israel.

Without keeping those distinctions, one will not properly understand what prophecies are for whom. And that's the main reason why Christ's enemies purposefully deny the two houses for Israel idea that is written in God's Word.

 

[Saint]

I think it is important to remember that the term gentile (goy or goyim) (ethnos in Greek) can apply to both non Israelites as well as Israelites; it simply means unbelievers among the nations. The term in the bible becomes confused because in most cases you have two groups; either the Jews (tribe of Judah, those remaining in Israel) or gentiles (unbelievers of the Jewish Faith). At the time of Yeshua the tribes of the Northern Kingdom were dispersed from the land and largely forgotten. It is those lost Israelites that Yeshua says He returned for and it is to them that He sent the apostles; they can be classified as gentiles.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

 

[veteran]

I think it is important to remember that the term gentile (goy or goyim) (ethnos in Greek) can apply to both non Israelites as well as Israelites; it simply means unbelievers among the nations. The term in the bible becomes confused because in most cases you have two groups; either the Jews (tribe of Judah, those remaining in Israel) or gentiles (unbelievers of the Jewish Faith). At the time of Yeshua the tribes of the Northern Kingdom were dispersed from the land and largely forgotten. It is those lost Israelites that Yeshua says He returned for and it is to them that He sent the apostles; they can be classified as gentiles.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

Which would answer to the pattern of what Joseph went through being separated from his mother and father, and eleven brethren to be among Gentiles in Egypt. Joseph took a wife of an Egyptian priest of On, who most likely was a Hebrew since Hebrews reigned in early Egypt for 500 years (Hyksos). That's also suggested since Jacob counted Joseph's two sons Manasseh and Ephraim as children of Israel in Israel's inheritance, and God's Birthright continued with Joseph's two sons.

Thus the pattern of Joseph's separation fits the scattering of the ten tribes among the Gentiles, becoming 'as' Gentiles, then under Christ Jesus being exalted among the Gentiles like Joseph was in Egypt, and eventually the joining back of all the tribes of Israel at Christ's return representing Joseph being joined back with his brethren in final.

Ephraim and Manasseh thus are symbolic of Christ's Salvation going also to the Gentiles.

 

[JLB]

Shabbat shalom, MR. ROSENBERGER.


First, what would I be hiding from? What would I be running away from? I really don't know what you're talking about.
Yes, in the first century, there were thousands of Y'hudiym (Jews) who accepted Yeshua` as the Messiah, and we were fortunate that the disciples were commissioned to be witnesses in Yerushalayim, in all of Y'hudiym, and in Shomron, and to the farthest coast of the earth:

Acts 1:8
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
KJV

From this commission - the Great Commission - Gentiles were also grafted into the Olive Tree. The question, therefore, becomes, "Do YOU believe that Jesus is the Messiah for Isra'el?"

On the other hand, WHY do you think the Devil has gone ANYWHERE?! He's not gone! He's actively destroying any life He can! He has NOT YET BEEN BOUND! That won't happen until the Millennium (Rev. 20:1-6)!

Now, when it comes to the spirit (the attitude) of "antichristos," one must NOT fall into the errors of today's eschatologies and think that we are talking about a particular person. That said, however, one must also be careful not to fall off the opposite edge and called the attitude of "antichristos" anything but how Yochanan (John) explained it in 1 John and 2 John:

1 John 2:18-23
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV

1 John 4:1-3
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV

2 John 5-9
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
KJV

And, one should also look at other things that Yochanan wrote:

1 John 5:1-3
5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
KJV

Thus, I submit to you that anyone - "believer" or "nonbeliever" - who does not believe the Yeshua` is the Messiah promised to Isra'el IS AN ANTICHRIST by definition! Furthermore, the flip side of the coin is that anyone who believes that Yeshua` is the Messiah is born of God! Let that sink in for a moment. What that means is that all of the ritual and liturgy and procedures one has concocted as a formula for how one gets "saved" are WRONG! All it takes is for someone to believe that Yeshua` is the Messiah of God as promised for Isra'el! That fact, by the way, implies that one first must know what the "Messiah of God" is. I've known several "Christians" who have thought that "Christ" was "Jesus's" LAST NAME! SOMEBODY hasn't been teaching them the truth!

Now, as far as the Jews are concerned: Do you believe that someone can accept that there is a Messiah, that He has come from God, will be coming soon, and keeps God's commandments accordingly? That's what a Jew believes! The only pieces of the puzzle missing to him are (1) that YESHUA` (JESUS) is that Messiah of God, and (2) that He is the SON of God! That's all they have to admit for them to be BETTER believers than we are! Why do I say "BETTER?" Because they STUDY the Scriptures on a regular basis, if not daily! They discuss these matters and debate them often! Their first words are taught to be "Hear O Isra'el! The LORD our God; the LORD is ONE!" The last words they say with their dying breath is "Hear O Isra'el! The LORD our God; the LORD is ONE!" "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu! ADONAI echad!"

Finally, the "fool" is one who says that there is nothing left for Yeshua` haMashiach (the Messiah) to do! He has MUCH to do, yet! Read through the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT)! You will find that there are lots of things for Him to fulfill that have not as yet been fulfilled! As Yogi Berra once said, "It ain't over 'til it's over!"

Do you confess Jesus as Lord. That is to say YHWH.

Do you confess Jesus as YHWH.


Thanks, JLB

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Isn't that a little counter to the word of YHWH; if what you say is totally true then there would not have been a distinction between the seed of Abraham. Simply put some were the seed and some were not :unsure:

No.The seed of Abraham are those whom God chooses, and who obey his covenant. It has always been that way. Natural-born Israelites who didn't obey the covenant were cut off; and those of the nations who joined Israel and obeyed the covenant were grafted into Israel, and considered natural born. What does that have to do with fleshly distinctions?