Who is Israel?

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Saint

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No.The seed of Abraham are those whom God chooses, and who obey his covenant. It has always been that way. Natural-born Israelites who didn't obey the covenant were cut off; and those of the nations who joined Israel and obeyed the covenant were grafted into Israel, and considered natural born. What does that have to do with fleshly distinctions?

Then the word of YHWH is wrong or maybe you can tell me what the scripture really means :huh:

(Gen 21:12 ESV) But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.


In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Then the word of YHWH is wrong or maybe you can tell me what the scripture really means :huh:

(Gen 21:12 ESV) But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named.

I told you what it means. Those chosen by God are Abraham's seed. It has nothing to do with the flesh. Ishmael was the firstborn, but God chose Isaac. Esau was the firstborn, but God chose Jacob. Reuben was the firstborn, but God chose Joseph. The firstborn always inherited the father's legacy, but since Abraham's legacy included God's promises to him, God himself overrode man's tradition and appointed as firstborn those whom he chose. That lineage of chosen firstborns is the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
 

Saint

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I told you what it means. Those chosen by God are Abraham's seed. It has nothing to do with the flesh. Ishmael was the firstborn, but God chose Isaac. Esau was the firstborn, but God chose Jacob. Reuben was the firstborn, but God chose Joseph. The firstborn always inherited the father's legacy, but since Abraham's legacy included God's promises to him, God himself overrode man's tradition and appointed as firstborn those whom he chose. That lineage of chosen firstborns is the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

OK I'll agree to that :)

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob
 

veteran

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OK I'll agree to that :)

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob

HeRoseFromTheDead, on 15 April 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:
I told you what it means. Those chosen by God are Abraham's seed. It has nothing to do with the flesh. Ishmael was the firstborn, but God chose Isaac. Esau was the firstborn, but God chose Jacob. Reuben was the firstborn, but God chose Joseph. The firstborn always inherited the father's legacy, but since Abraham's legacy included God's promises to him, God himself overrode man's tradition and appointed as firstborn those whom he chose. That lineage of chosen firstborns is the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


I cannot completely agree, because the Biblical fact is that God DID... choose a specific flesh 'seed' through which His Son would be born.

The Rom.9 idea of Paul saying that not all Israel are of Israel, is about the subject of God's Salvation Promise by Faith. It is not the only... promise He gave, for He also gave Israel specific promises that do not apply to any... other... flesh seed other than Israel. If we start denying that then we probably would be throwing away about a 1/3 of God's Holy Writ.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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I cannot completely agree, because the Biblical fact is that God DID... choose a specific flesh 'seed' through which His Son would be born.
The Rom.9 idea of Paul saying that not all Israel are of Israel, is about the subject of God's Salvation Promise by Faith. It is not the only... promise He gave, for He also gave Israel specific promises that do not apply to any... other... flesh seed other than Israel. If we start denying that then we probably would be throwing away about a 1/3 of God's Holy Writ.

Yes, he did choose a specific person, and his subsequent descendants to carry the promises up unto the seed, i.e., Christ, to whom God cut a covenant with Abraham to give the land. Those promises to the natural seed have been fulfilled in Joshua (the type, or shadow) and Joshua (Christ, the anti-type, or reality).

And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Joshua 21:43-45

And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:32-33

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers: Romans 15:8
 

Saint

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I cannot completely agree, because the Biblical fact is that God DID... choose a specific flesh 'seed' through which His Son would be born.

The Rom.9 idea of Paul saying that not all Israel are of Israel, is about the subject of God's Salvation Promise by Faith. It is not the only... promise He gave, for He also gave Israel specific promises that do not apply to any... other... flesh seed other than Israel. If we start denying that then we probably would be throwing away about a 1/3 of God's Holy Writ.

Yes I agree in principle with you Veteran but we cannot deny that YHWH did within that group reject some so the line is not without exception.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob
 

veteran

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Yes, he did choose a specific person, and his subsequent descendants to carry the promises up unto the seed, i.e., Christ, to whom God cut a covenant with Abraham to give the land. Those promises to the natural seed have been fulfilled in Joshua (the type, or shadow) and Joshua (Christ, the anti-type, or reality).
And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Joshua 21:43-45

And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:32-33

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers: Romans 15:8




I really can't believe I'm having to discuss this, because it's so plain in God's Word there are STILL... specific promises for the flesh seed of Israel that have yet to come to pass today.

One of them is Christ's 12 Apostles, who were all Israelites by they way, have been promised to sit upon thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Another is God's promise to gather... the house of Israel (ten tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews) and join them into "one stick" per Ezek.37, and RESTORE their nation again as it was of old, with David as their king. God even promised in Amos 9 that He will gather the house of Israel as corn through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to the ground.

Also, there are still certain promises from God specifically to the flesh seed of Israel manifested today on this earth. Problem is, the majority have been taught to ... look away... from those promises to Israel and see something else entirely.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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I really can't believe I'm having to discuss this, because it's so plain in God's Word there are STILL... specific promises for the flesh seed of Israel that have yet to come to pass today.

1) One of them is Christ's 12 Apostles, who were all Israelites by they way, have been promised to sit upon thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
2) Another is God's promise to gather... the house of Israel (ten tribes) and the house of Judah (Jews) and join them into "one stick" per Ezek.37, and RESTORE their nation again as it was of old, with David as their king. God even promised in Amos 9 that He will gather the house of Israel as corn through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to the ground.
3) Also, there are still certain promises from God specifically to the flesh seed of Israel manifested today on this earth. Problem is, the majority have been taught to ... look away... from those promises to Israel and see something else entirely.

Yes, of course, to No. 1.

No. 2 was fulfilled at Pentecost. You cannot deny that both the houses of Israel and Judah were reunited into one new nation then.

Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isaiah 66:7-8

But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Peter 2:9

No. 3 is so vague I can't really comment.
 

veteran

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Yes, of course, to No. 1.

No. 2 was fulfilled at Pentecost. You cannot deny that both the houses of Israel and Judah were reunited into one new nation then.

Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isaiah 66:7-8

But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 1 Peter 2:9

No. 3 is so vague I can't really comment.


No.2 was NOT fulfilled at Pentecost. What was fulfilled at Pentecost was God's Salvation also going to the Gentiles, AND God's Promise of The Holy Spirit, which is why He told His Apostles to not leave Jerusalem yet.

Acts 1:3-5
3 To whom also He shewed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith He, ye have heard of Me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
(KJV)


The event of Ezekiel 37 has still yet to happen today, for that Scripture declares David again setup as king.

The idea that today's state of Israel in the holy land fits God's proclaimed restoration of Israel is a LIE.
 

Saint

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Ezekiel 37 is yet to be fulfilled and it is a Kingdom of God prophecy to be fulfilled in the Millennium. The meaning of the oracle is clear enough. It foretells the eventual reunion of Ephraim and Judah, the Northern Israel and the Southern Israel, Samaria and Jerusalem under one king, thus healing the long breach that had begun in the days of Rehoboam who succeeded Solomon.

In Yeshua Messiah,

Bob
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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No.2 was NOT fulfilled at Pentecost. What was fulfilled at Pentecost was God's Salvation also going to the Gentiles, AND God's Promise of The Holy Spirit, which is why He told His Apostles to not leave Jerusalem yet.
The event of Ezekiel 37 has still yet to happen today, for that Scripture declares David again setup as king.

You believe that to your detriment, for it most certainly was fulfilled then. The kingdom of God is just another name for God's spiritual nation. From the beginning God never wanted a natural kingdom; why would he change his mind?

But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. 1 Samuel 8:6-8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hebrews 13:8

You are so intent on reading literalness into Ezekiel 37. Why don't you read chapter 36 the same way?
 

veteran

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You believe that to your detriment, for it most certainly was fulfilled then. The kingdom of God is just another name for God's spiritual nation. From the beginning God never wanted a natural kingdom; why would he change his mind?

But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. 1 Samuel 8:6-8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Hebrews 13:8

You are so intent on reading literalness into Ezekiel 37. Why don't you read chapter 36 the same way?


You're not even keeping to the Scripture. Even the Scripture you've quoted you've completely taken it out of the context where it is written. How can I be sure of that? Well, simply, what did God establish on earth after the people requested a flesh king like the other nations around them? He established the kingdom of Israel with Saul, and then eventually with David, and then the most glorious kingdom on earth ever established with Solomon's reign.


Ezek 37:12-28
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O My people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put My spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, 'Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?'
19 Say unto them, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.
24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
(KJV)


When Jesus Christ returns, the original inheritances of the land will be restored to the children of Israel, something that hasn't been manifest on earth since Solomon's days when God split his kingdom into two separate 'houses' (the "two nations" above).

At present, today's state of Israel does not have a king in Jerusalem, nor do they possess but a small portion of the original lands of inheritance, even Ishmael has possession of a portion of Jerusalem! Nor does God's Sanctuary stand there in Jerusalem today, etc., etc., etc.

Somehow I think you well KNOW all this.

And one more thing God said when that is fulfilled, there will no more be the Canaanite in the house of The LORD of hosts (Zech.14:21).

Thus Judah that believes on Jesus Christ as Messiah might want to start thinking about that casting out, and decide who's side they want to be on, for that is soon coming upon those who think to claim the inheritances of God's true Israel under Christ Jesus.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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You're not even keeping to the Scripture. Even the Scripture you've quoted you've completely taken it out of the context where it is written. How can I be sure of that? Well, simply, what did God establish on earth after the people requested a flesh king like the other nations around them? He established the kingdom of Israel with Saul, and then eventually with David, and then the most glorious kingdom on earth ever established with Solomon's reign.

You're not paying attention. God equated the desire and request for an earthly kingdom with rebellion and idolatry. From the beginning God has sought a people whom he alone rules over. btw, Solomon's kingdom wasn't so great; look what it devolved into in less than 40 years.

Why did you post Ezekiel 37 when all I asked was since you read a natural fulfillment into it, do you also read a natural fulfillment into chapter 36?
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, JLB.

Do you confess Jesus as Lord. That is to say YHWH.

Do you confess Jesus as YHWH.


Thanks, JLB

On this note, I have to be extremely careful, and here's why: There are SO many denominations of "Christians" who claim that Yeshua` is part of the Trinity or the Tri-unity of God to the extent that they say that He IS God! They will often pray ONLY to Him; they worship ONLY Him as God; they camp on the verse "I and my Father are one" to the extent that they neglect other verses that shed light on His Person!

That said, I will say this much: No, I do not confess that Yeshua` is YHVH (who is the Father), but I DO accept Him as haBen Elohiym (the Son of God). I do NOT adhere to theology proper or Christology to the point of saying that "Yeshua`" or "Jesus" is God's NAME! YHVH, which I believe is pronounced "YaHuWH" because of how it was attached to various names, such as Eliyahu (Elijah), Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah), and Ts'fanyahu (Zephaniah) in their Hebrew rendition, to name a few, is the NAME of God. Some will even ill-advisedly try to merge the two names into one, such as "Yehoshuah." And, ANY name that one would try to use as a magic word - a talisman - is disobeying the first commandment! "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain!"

Based on Yeshua`s habitual practices and His reactions to how He was treated and called during His first advent - His first coming, I would say that HE would have a problem with people addressing Him as God! He almost always called Himself the "Son of Man," which just simply means a "human being" as a "son of the FIRST man, Adam," a "TRUE human being," not the sinful, weakened version of man after the Fall, but in his original, created state. On occasion, He would admit to being the "Son of God," but He was NEVER called "God the Son!" That's a fictitious addition from a human-fabricated theology. When the demons tried to call Him the "Son of God," He told them to shut up!

Now, regarding that verse, John 10:30, one absolutely MUST see it in context to understand what He was saying:

John 10:24-40
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them,
I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them,
Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them,
Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
KJV


Furthermore, Yeshua` also used the same word for "one" here that He used in Matthew 19:5-6 and Mark 10:8. They are ONE in thought; they are ONE in attitude; they are ONE in "being on the same page," just as a man and woman who decide to marry become (or SHOULD become) ONE!

Yeshua` also said these things:

John 8:25-30
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
KJV


So, hopefully you will understand when I say that Yeshua` (Jesus) IS NOT the same PERSON as the Father, although He is certainly IN TUNE with His Father! Now, consider this: IF Yeshua` was/is God, then to WHOM was Yeshua` praying? To whom was God answering? If you or I were talking to someone who was really just ourselves, we'd be called schizophrenic! We might even be considered to have a split personality disorder! Look at the various times when the Father is distinct from the Son of God - His baptism, His transfiguration, His crucifixion! In each of these events, one could clearly HEAR and SEE that God the Father is different than the Son of God! If that's not true, then what was Yeshua` doing, throwing His voice?!

There are practical differences between God the Father and the Son of God, as well. YaHuWH is not restricted to time and space, as we humans are; however, the Son of God was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). He had a body that was limited to a particular location in time and space all the while He was here on this earth. Indeed, I believe that there's enough evidence to say that even His resurrected body was also so limited, when He appeared to His disciples after His resurrection.

While Yeshua` said, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9), the Scriptures also tell us that "no man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18). I find it interesting how things are worded in Revelation 21:23, particularly in Greek:

Rev. 21:23
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
KJV


The Greek says,

23 Kai hee polis ou chreian echei tou heeliou oude tees seleenees hina fainoosin autee, hee gar doxa tou Theou efootisen auteen, kai ho luchnos autees to Arnion.

It was the "glory of the God" that "lightened" (efootisen) it (the city), but Yeshua, the Lamb (Arnion), was the "light" (luchnos) of it! God's glory "brightened it up," but the Lamb was the "LAMP!" God's glory would permeate the city, but Yeshua` was the LIGHTBULB - a FOCAL POINT for the emanation of the light!

Furthermore, Yeshua` said in John 5:22 that "the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son." And 1 Cor. 15:20-28 in harmony with Rev. 20:7-15 confirm this. Furthermore, 1 Cor. 15:24-28 suggest that Yeshua` will reign until all of His enemies are subject to Him and then He Himself will become subject to His Father, further suggesting that Yeshua` is not the same Person as His Father!

I believe that you are referring to Romans 14:11:

Rom. 14:10-13
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (of the Messiah).
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
KJV

Isa 45:22-25
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
KJV

Because YaHuWH has selected Yeshua` to be His visible Substitute in judgment, this passage may refer to Him; however, one can be sure that Yeshua` will direct all laud and honor toward His Father!
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Based on Yeshua`s habitual practices and His reactions to how He was treated and called during His first advent - His first coming, I would say that HE would have a problem with people addressing Him as God!

Which opinion is contrary to scripture. Jesus hardly had a problem with Timothy calling him his God, but rather called those who believed that without seeing blessed:

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. John 20:27-29

There are practical differences between God the Father and the Son of God, as well. YaHuWH is not restricted to time and space, as we humans are; however, the Son of God was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). He had a body that was limited to a particular location in time and space all the while He was here on this earth. Indeed, I believe that there's enough evidence to say that even His resurrected body was also so limited, when He appeared to His disciples after His resurrection.

That was a temporary limitation. He was made lower than the angels for just a season.

While Yeshua` said, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9), the Scriptures also tell us that "no man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18).

That is because Jesus, the son, is the visible form of the invisible God, the father. He is the only visible form of the father anyone will ever see, or ever has seen.
 

JLB

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Retrobyter wrote -

So, hopefully you will understand when I say that Yeshua` (Jesus) IS NOT the same PERSON as the Father...

I agree, I am not saying Jesus is God The Father. Consider the following scriptures.


Dueteronomy 10:17

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.

Revelation 17:14

14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."


Zechariah 12:10

Thus says the Lord [YHWH], who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

10 "And I [YHWH] will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look onMe [YHWH]whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Clearly, YHWH is speaking here and refers to Himself as the One pierced, which Revelation refers to this passage -

Revelation 1:7,8

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Jesus Himself reveals to us that He is YHWH in the dialog with the Pharisee's -

John 8:56-59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Why do you think they picked up stones to stone Him. Because He was declaring Himself to be YHWH.

Jesus was referring to Genesis 17 when He made covenant with Abraham.

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying:


There are many many more references, these that I have given are sufficient.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


Thanks, JLB

John 1:18

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.


Do you think Abraham was seeing God The Father!
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.

Which opinion is contrary to scripture. Jesus hardly had a problem with Timothy calling him his God, but rather called those who believed that without seeing blessed:


Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. John 20:27-29



That was a temporary limitation. He was made lower than the angels for just a season.



That is because Jesus, the son, is the visible form of the invisible God, the father. He is the only visible form of the father anyone will ever see, or ever has seen.

I find this a DANGEROUS answer! When you say, "Jesus, the Son, is the visible form of the invisible God, the Father. He is the only visible form of the Father anyone will ever see, or ever has seen," you open the door for confusion between the Son and the Father. You're setting a DANGEROUS precedent in even suggesting that link! Yeshua` was NOT just a visible manifestation of God the Father! You're putting aspects of the Father into the Son that have NO Scriptural support for doing so! In the process, you "muddy the waters" regarding the hypostatic union of the Messiah!

There's no doubt that Yeshua` was/is the Word of God, and there's no doubt that He was incarnate when He was born to a virgin; these are both Scriptural. HOWEVER, to suggest that "Yeshua` was the visible form of the invisible God the Father" is both wrong and perpetuates the current abuse of the Son's role in God's plan!

And, by the way, we don't know enough about the situation presented in John 20:27-29 to know whether Toma was addressing just the Messiah or the Messiah and God the Father in the same sentence!

Furthermore, when you use the Scripture that says that He was "made a little lower than the angels," you are assuming you know what "the angels" are! The word strictly means no more than "messengers," and the PRIMARY messengers to people from God were the PROPHETS!

You MUST be more careful than that.

Shalom, JLB.

Retrobyter wrote -

So, hopefully you will understand when I say that Yeshua` (Jesus) IS NOT the same PERSON as the Father...

I agree, I am not saying Jesus is God The Father. Consider the following scriptures.


Dueteronomy 10:17

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.

Revelation 17:14

14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."


Zechariah 12:10

Thus says the LORD [YHWH], who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

10 "And I [YHWH] will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me [YHWH] whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Clearly, YHWH is speaking here and refers to Himself as the One pierced, which Revelation refers to this passage -

Revelation 1:7,8

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Jesus Himself reveals to us that He is YHWH in the dialog with the Pharisee's -

John 8:56-59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." 57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" 58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Why do you think they picked up stones to stone Him. Because He was declaring Himself to be YHWH.

Jesus was referring to Genesis 17 when He made covenant with Abraham.

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying:


There are many many more references, these that I have given are sufficient.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


Thanks, JLB

John 1:18

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.


Do you think Abraham was seeing God The Father!

I find your answer a much more thoughtful and Scriptural answer. I can also agree with you that Yeshua`s role and that of the Father are merged in prophecy. Yet, even in the prophecies about Yeshua`s first coming, a distinction is made between the Son and the Father. A case in point is Isaiah 53:1-12, particularly verse 10:

Isa. 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
KJV


Thus, YHVH (the LORD), the Father, did the bruising, and Yeshua`, the Son, received the bruising at the crucifixion. It is here at the crucifixion that we find the clearest evidence that Yeshua` is NOT the same as the Father, for their roles in the crucifixion are VASTLY different!

Yet, in the verses you quote, you make a valid point, although I believe that some of that can be explained in the fact that Yeshua` as the Messiah of God (haMashiach Elohiym) is God's Emissary - His Representative - in those prophecies; however, notice carefully the shift in pronouns within Zech. 12:10! I don't have time right now to go into it, but this shift makes a clear distinction between YHVH and the One who was pierced.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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I find this a DANGEROUS answer! ...
There's no doubt that Yeshua` was/is the Word of God, and there's no doubt that He was incarnate when He was born to a virgin; these are both Scriptural. HOWEVER, to suggest that "Yeshua` was the visible form of the invisible God the Father" is both wrong and perpetuates the current abuse of the Son's role in God's plan!
...
You MUST be more careful than that.

Your very misguided opinions don't trump the witness of scripture:

[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Colossians 1:15

If I believed that 10% of what you teach is true, I might be concerned by your admonitions. But I have already told you that I think your teachings make you an enemy of the cross of Christ.
 

JLB

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Here are some scriptures that describe different people and there encounters with God.

Please see the progression of understanding in these scriptures, The Angel of The Lord to Lord to God.


Exodus 3:1-6 Moses

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." 6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.


Genesis 16:7-13 Hagar

7 Now the Angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And He said, "Hagar, Sarai's maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?" She said, "I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai." 9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand." 10 Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude." 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her: "Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man's hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." 13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?"


Judges 13 Read all Samsons Parents


13 So the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Of all that I said to the woman let her be careful. 14 She may not eat anything that comes from the vine, nor may she drink wine or similar drink, nor eat anything unclean. All that I commanded her let her observe." 15 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You." 16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" 19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" 23 But his wife said to him, "If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time."


Did you get that in verse 18 - And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"

A reference to Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


More to come ...
 

veteran

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The blind Pharisees didn't believe Jesus of Nazareth was God either, even though Jesus proclaimed Himself as God to them more than once. No surprise those with that Pharisee kind of thinking still exist today, and they go about slandering Christianity in the process.