Hi Bob,
Again, thanks for your reply.
There is no way of proving that every descendant of Jacob left 'the land' after 70AD. I don't believe they did, and that's as much because of the natural effects of having been occupied by Rome for
more than 70 years. That's the same length of time Judah was in Babylon, and only a tenth of them returned (
Isaiah 6:13). All those Jewish girls who'd been taken as wives by Romans, would have 'seed' in 'the land' for generations to come, and there could have been whole Jewish families who farmed or served in other ways, who were
forced to stay, while others were forced to
leave.
Regarding the
numbers in the country called Israel today, let us never forget why they were separated from the land all those years ago, and let us not idolise a possession. The possession of importance is an on-going relationship with God, which makes us
His possession. Everything, including a place on 'the land', flows from that. It's a conditional gift.
Elohim says He will save them upon the second coming of Yeshua
Please show me
OT scriptures which support that Christ's first coming did not apply to His very own tribe, Judah, at that time, or to this very day. (I know what Romans 11 says. It doesn't mentioned Christ's second coming, unless you think the promise in Isaiah 59:20 was not fulfilled by Jesus during His first advent. If so, please give
other scripture which agrees that Isaiah 59:20 has never been fuflilled? Thanks.)
Paul never separates Judah out - and I personally believe that God broke off with Judah also; although he didn't call it 'divorce', but, He states that Judah's sins were
worse than Israel's - nevertheless, always calling them
all to return to Him.
If the gospel was effective in bringing in those who gladly received His word
then, (in the New Testament), it is not because God or God's word has changed, that this doctrine has sprung up about the second coming of Christ.
Unbelieving Jews have made it about
the land, finding the Gentile church not as well versed in the promises as they are; them knowing that 'the land' was given
conditionally, to those who dwelt in obedience to God. As Judah found out, His tolerance of sin has a limit.
Jeremiah 9:19 For a voice of wailing is heard out of Zion, How are we spoiled! we are greatly confounded, because we have forsaken the land, because our dwellings have cast [us] out.
Leviticus 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which [were] before you, and the land is defiled;) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that [were] before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [them] shall be cut off from among their people.
Every sermon early in Acts refers to David. Why? Because the preacher had to prove to those listening that Jesus Christ was the promised descendant of Jesse and David, who would inherit David's throne for ever. It was vital to be shown that the Messiah was from the tribe of Judah, and that He fulfilled
all previous prophecy, accurately.
Peter speaking - to whom the scriptures had been expounded by Jesus Christ Himself -
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out... 22 For Mosestruly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
I don't make the claim which you do, to have studied this out conclusively, but even on the surface of the page, there is much to militate against your interpretation (no matter how much popularity it has amongst people today).
To answer your question regarding the covenant; it is the Mosaic Covenant; ... Judah was dispersed into the world in 70AD
Regarding the continutation of the Mosaic Covenant, it is worthless without blood. You must know that? And, to give it credence today, is to resist the apostles' New Testament teachings. Israel's nationhood always depended (and stii depends) on being in
right relationship with God. The Sinai covenant with Moses (ton behalf of the people whom God brought out of Egypt to Himself), is littered with one 'if' after another. Once the vail in the Temple was torn open, 'the Mosaic Covenant' was effectively over. Jews who were in unbelief about Jesus Christ, were being called
to repentance.
Those in Israel who did not move into the New Covenant then, have received their fate (by now), just as He left the generation who left Egypt, dead in the wilderness for their unbelief. It gives me no pleasure to point this out. Paul makes clear that those keeping 'the law' are 'going about to establish their
own righteousness', (
Romans 10:1 - 3; Romans 3:24, 25, 28) placing them outside the Israel of God, as does Peter by his quotation from Exodus 19, in 1 Peter 2:9.
The relationship between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant, and its meaning for the former's participants, is taken up by the writer
to the Hebrews, showing the fulfilment of God's promise to those who had kept it.
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. The redemption of the transgressions under the first testament refers to the expiation of the sins of those who had kept the Mosaic Covenant in their day, such as in the wilderness, in Israel, and in Judah.
Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
God finally ratified His covenant with Abraham by providing His sacrifice, thus bringing the stipulations which He had added through the Mosaic Covenant, to completion.
Conditions for 'the nation' 'of Israel' being in right relationship with God have never ceased. It falls to each individual to turn to Him and believe;
today.
Matthew 22:31 [Jesus to Sadducees]
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Mark 12:27 adds,
'ye therefore do greatly err'.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
At this present time, I'm not able to bring a conclusive shortlist of scriptures from the Old Testament, to establish the claims of the New Testament, but, I am slowly working on that. The fact that not one of the New Testament writers separates Judah for special treatment (compared to the 'ten tribes' of 'Israel') is, I think, very significant, and we should learn from it, rather than ignoring it just because it fails to support a modern theory.
God has said waaaay back, that He doesn't do anything He has not already shown His prophets. And in Acts 3, Peter testifies to that. The rest of the prophecies of Jesus Christ remain to be fulfilled, but there's
no evidence in scripture that He's changed His rules of engagement for just one tribe to be
excused from terms set out by Peter
to Jews, namely:
Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ...'
I fully understand there are 'Jews' today, who have not yet turned to Yeshua Moshiach for salvation, but the gospel to them is the one which was preached in the New Testament - not one which has been added to the New Testament.
Paul speaking:
Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Hi Bob,
Again, thanks for your reply.
There is no way of proving that every descendant of Jacob left 'the land' after 70AD. I don't believe they did, and that's as much because of the natural effects of having been occupied by Rome for
more than 70 years. That's the same length of time Judah was in Babylon, and only a tenth of them returned (
Isaiah 6:13). All those Jewish girls who'd been taken as wives by Romans, would have 'seed' in 'the land' for generations to come, and there could have been whole Jewish families who farmed or served in other ways, who were
forced to stay, while others were forced to
leave.
Regarding the
numbers in the country called Israel today, let us never forget why they were separated from the land all those years ago, and let us not idolise a possession. The possession of importance is an on-going relationship with God, which makes us
His possession. Everything, including a place on 'the land', flows from that. It's a conditional gift.
Elohim says He will save them upon the second coming of Yeshua
Please show me
OT scriptures which support that Christ's first coming did not apply to His very own tribe, Judah, at that time, or to this very day. (I know what Romans 11 says. It doesn't mentioned Christ's second coming, unless you think the promise in Isaiah 59:20 was not fulfilled by Jesus during His first advent. If so, please give
other scripture which agrees that Isaiah 59:20 has never been fuflilled? Thanks.)
Paul never separates Judah out - and I personally believe that God broke off with Judah also; although he didn't call it 'divorce', but, He states that Judah's sins were
worse than Israel's - nevertheless, always calling them
all to return to Him.
If the gospel was effective in bringing in those who gladly received His word
then, (in the New Testament), it is not because God or God's word has changed, that this doctrine has sprung up about the second coming of Christ.
Unbelieving Jews have made it about
the land, finding the Gentile church not as well versed in the promises as they are; them knowing that 'the land' was given
conditionally, to those who dwelt in obedience to God. As Judah found out, His tolerance of sin has a limit.
Jeremiah 9:19 For a voice of wailing is heard out of Zion, How are we spoiled! we are greatly confounded, because we have forsaken the land, because our dwellings have cast [us] out.
Leviticus 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which [were] before you, and the land is defiled;) 28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that [were] before you. 29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [them] shall be cut off from among their people.
Every sermon early in Acts refers to David. Why? Because the preacher had to prove to those listening that Jesus Christ was the promised descendant of Jesse and David, who would inherit David's throne for ever. It was vital to be shown that the Messiah was from the tribe of Judah, and that He fulfilled
all previous prophecy, accurately.
Peter speaking - to whom the scriptures had been expounded by Jesus Christ Himself -
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out... 22 For Mosestruly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
I don't make the claim which you do, to have studied this out conclusively, but even on the surface of the page, there is much to militate against your interpretation (no matter how much popularity it has amongst people today).
To answer your question regarding the covenant; it is the Mosaic Covenant; ... Judah was dispersed into the world in 70AD
Regarding the continutation of the Mosaic Covenant, it is worthless without blood. You must know that? And, to give it credence today, is to resist the apostles' New Testament teachings. Israel's nationhood always depended (and stii depends) on being in
right relationship with God. The Sinai covenant with Moses (ton behalf of the people whom God brought out of Egypt to Himself), is littered with one 'if' after another. Once the vail in the Temple was torn open, 'the Mosaic Covenant' was effectively over. Jews who were in unbelief about Jesus Christ, were being called
to repentance.
Those in Israel who did not move into the New Covenant then, have received their fate (by now), just as He left the generation who left Egypt, dead in the wilderness for their unbelief. It gives me no pleasure to point this out. Paul makes clear that those keeping 'the law' are 'going about to establish their
own righteousness', (
Romans 10:1 - 3; Romans 3:24, 25, 28) placing them outside the Israel of God, as does Peter by his quotation from Exodus 19, in 1 Peter 2:9.
The relationship between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant, and its meaning for the former's participants, is taken up by the writer
to the Hebrews, showing the fulfilment of God's promise to those who had kept it.
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. The redemption of the transgressions under the first testament refers to the expiation of the sins of those who had kept the Mosaic Covenant in their day, such as in the wilderness, in Israel, and in Judah.
Hebrews 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
God finally ratified His covenant with Abraham by providing His sacrifice, thus bringing the stipulations which He had added through the Mosaic Covenant, to completion.
Conditions for 'the nation' 'of Israel' being in right relationship with God have never ceased. It falls to each individual to turn to Him and believe;
today.
Matthew 22:31 [Jesus to Sadducees]
But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Mark 12:27 adds,
'ye therefore do greatly err'.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
At this present time, I'm not able to bring a conclusive shortlist of scriptures from the Old Testament, to establish the claims of the New Testament, but, I am slowly working on that. The fact that not one of the New Testament writers separates Judah for special treatment (compared to the 'ten tribes' of 'Israel') is, I think, very significant, and we should learn from it, rather than ignoring it just because it fails to support a modern theory.
God has said waaaay back, that He doesn't do anything He has not already shown His prophets. And in Acts 3, Peter testifies to that. The rest of the prophecies of Jesus Christ remain to be fulfilled, but there's
no evidence in scripture that He's changed His rules of engagement for just one tribe to be
excused from terms set out by Peter
to Jews, namely:
Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ...'
I fully understand there are 'Jews' today, who have not yet turned to Yeshua Moshiach for salvation, but the gospel to them is the one which was preached in the New Testament - not one which has been added to the New Testament.
Paul speaking:
Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
Son of Man said,
Israel are those who have Christ as their King
Amen.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went...10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 9:15; Hebrews 12:22, 23, 24; Acts 13:38, 39; Acts 13:42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48; Hebrews 12:25, 28, 29.
