Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[covenantee]

Before I continue answering your questions, could you please state your own position clearly?

Do you believe that ethnic Israel ceased to be God’s covenant people after rejecting Christ, so that God now has no distinct future purpose for the Jewish people?

And how do you understand Paul’s statement that unbelieving Israel remains “beloved for the sake of the fathers,” and that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:28–29)?

Israel from its birth was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. God's covenant people were the Jews and Gentiles faithful and obedient to Him and His Covenant, within the nation.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.


Those faithful and obedient within the nation, God blessed.

Those unfaithful and disobedient, He slew. Ethnicity was and is irrelevant.

Numbers 25
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

There has never been any substitute, ethnicity or otherwise, to this day, for faith and obedience.

 

[CTK]

Israel from its birth was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. God's covenant people were the Jews and Gentiles faithful and obedient to Him and His Covenant, within the nation.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.


Those faithful and obedient within the nation, God blessed.

Those unfaithful and disobedient, He slew. Ethnicity was and is irrelevant.

Numbers 25
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

There has never been any substitute, ethnicity or otherwise, to this day, for faith and obedience.

I agree with part of what you are saying. Faith and obedience were always necessary for anyone to enjoy God’s covenant blessings, and Gentiles were permitted to join Israel’s covenant community. But the verses you quoted do not show that ethnicity was irrelevant. They show that a stranger could be incorporated into Israel. The stranger had to be circumcised, keep the Passover, and live under the law God gave to Israel. Israel was not being absorbed into a mixed nation with no ethnic identity; the stranger was being received into the covenant life of Israel.

I think we need to distinguish between three things:

Who belonged ethnically to Israel,​

​

who participated in Israel’s covenant community,​

​

and who was personally faithful to God.​

An ethnic Israelite could be disobedient and judged, yet still remain an Israelite. A faithful Gentile could join Israel, yet that did not erase Israel’s historical identity as the people descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So I agree that ancestry never guaranteed salvation. But that is different from saying ancestry and national identity were irrelevant to God’s historical purposes. Paul holds both truths together. Unbelieving Israelites are not saved merely because of ancestry, yet he still says they are “beloved for the sake of the fathers” and that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:28–29).

So perhaps the central question is this:

Do you believe Israel’s unfaithfulness erased God’s historical promises to the nation, or only excluded unfaithful individuals from the blessings of those promises?

From your comments, it appears that you believe God’s covenant people have always been defined only by faith and obedience, not by ethnic descent. In that view, faithful Gentiles were included among God’s people, while unfaithful Jews were excluded, meaning ethnic Israel no longer retains any distinct covenant identity or future purpose simply because of its descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[covenantee]

From your comments, it appears that you believe God’s covenant people have always been defined only by faith and obedience, not by ethnic descent. In that view, faithful Gentiles were included among God’s people, while unfaithful Jews were excluded, meaning ethnic Israel no longer retains any distinct covenant identity or future purpose simply because of its descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I could scarcely have said it better myself.

And no ethnic Israelite ever had or has any covenant identity apart from faithfulness and obedience to God and His Son.

God's historical promises to the nation have only ever been to those of faith and obedience within the nation.

Isaiah and Paul recognize them as the saved remnant. Isaiah 10:22; Romans 9:27.

 

[covenantee]

And how do you understand Paul’s statement that unbelieving Israel remains “beloved for the sake of the fathers,” and that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (Romans 11:28–29)?

There are two different "they's" in Romans 11:28.

Never and nowhere in Scripture are enemies of the gospel ever numbered with the election.

Never and nowhere in Scripture do the twain meet unless and until the former as individuals accept Christ, and are then numbered with the latter.

Paul further declares:

Romans 11
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ: His Beloved Election, His true Holy Chosen People: His Church.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts are bestowed exclusively upon His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His gifts are without repentance.


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


God's calling is directed exclusively to His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His calling is without repentance.

 

[Earburner]

To be candid, I thought I was quite clear.... but please consider the following:

In the matter of salvation, God’s redeemed people are all who belong to Christ through faith—Jew and Gentile alike. No one is saved merely because of ancestry, and an unbelieving Jew does not possess salvation simply because he is descended from Abraham.

But that does not mean ethnic Israel has ceased to be the people with whom God established His historical covenant purposes. Paul carefully preserves that distinction in Romans 9–11. He asks:

“Has God cast away His people?”​

And answers:

“Certainly not!” —Romans 11:1​

Later he describes unbelieving Israel this way:

“Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.”​

—Romans 11:28​

Those Israelites were not believers in Christ, so Paul was not calling them redeemed Christians. Yet he still connected them with God’s election and called them beloved because of the patriarchs. Therefore, I would define the terms carefully:

God’s redeemed people are those who belong to Christ by faith.​

Ethnic Israel remains the historic covenant people through whom God gave the promises, the Scriptures, and the Messiah, and concerning whom Paul still describes a future work of mercy.

Those truths do not compete with one another. Israel’s ancestry does not save them, but their present unbelief does not mean God has forgotten them or has no remaining purpose involving them.

Romans 11:28 prevents one from reducing the entire question to “believers versus unbelievers,” because Paul explicitly speaks about unbelieving Israel while still recognizing its continuing relationship to election and the patriarchal promises. Revelation clearly reveals an end time purpose for His people - they MUST fuflfill their 4th Great Jubilee cycle established in the OT.

For the nation of Israel, since Christ's first appearance, they are now equal to any Gentile country/nation, such as Iran, Russia, China etc. People of Jewish heritage have no preeminscense over anyone else, just because they ONCE WERE the chosen people of God

Might I remind you of Rom. 8:8-9.
8 So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh [only], but in the Spirit [also], if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[IndianaRob]

In Romans 11 Paul is saying the opposite of what most people think he’s saying.

Paul in chapter 10 diagnoses Israel's failure as misguided zeal, self-righteousness, and willful disobedience. Then, in the later part of the chapter, he quotes Moses (Deut 32:21) on Israel being provoked to jealousy by "a foolish nation" - the Gentiles receiving what Israel had rejected.

Then in Romans 11 Paul is showing that even though ethnic Israel is being cast away, Paul being an Israelite, is not being cast away because he is Gods chosen people.

The chosen people have always been those who obey God and keep his covenant (Exodus
19:15).

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

 

[CTK]

There are two different "they's" in Romans 11:28.

Never and nowhere in Scripture are enemies of the gospel ever numbered with the election.

Never and nowhere in Scripture do the twain meet unless and until the former as individuals accept Christ, and are then numbered with the latter.

Paul further declares:

Romans 11
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ: His Beloved Election, His true Holy Chosen People: His Church.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts are bestowed exclusively upon His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His gifts are without repentance.


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


God's calling is directed exclusively to His Beloved Election, His Holy Chosen People: His Church.

To them, and to no others, His calling is without repentance.

But Romans 11:28 does not contain two different groups of people.

Paul writes:

“As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.”​

The same “they” is viewed from two different perspectives:

With respect to the gospel, they are enemies because they presently reject Christ.​

​

With respect to election, they remain beloved because of God’s promises to the patriarchs.​

Paul does not change subjects between the two halves of the sentence. He does not say that unbelieving Israel is the first group and the Church is the second group. The contrast is not between two peoples; it is between two relationships involving the same people. That is also why verse 29 begins with “for”:

“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”​

Verse 29 gives the reason the unbelieving Israelites of verse 28 remain beloved concerning election. God does not revoke His historical gifts and calling concerning Israel.

The “gifts” in this context are not Paul’s later discussion of spiritual abilities such as prophecy, healing, or tongues. Romans 9:4–5 has already identified Israel’s gifts and privileges:

the adoption,​

the glory,​

the covenants,​

the giving of the law,​

the worship,​

the promises,​

the patriarchs,​

and the Messiah according to the flesh.​

Paul’s subject throughout Romans 9–11 is Israel—not spiritual gifts within the Church. Likewise, “calling” does not always mean only the effectual calling of individual Christians. Paul has already written of Israel:

“Who are Israelites; to whom pertain the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants…”​

He is discussing God’s historical choice and calling of that people through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This does not mean unbelieving Jews are saved. Paul plainly says they are presently enemies concerning the gospel and have been broken off because of unbelief. They must be grafted in again through faith in Christ. But being unsaved because of unbelief is not the same as having no continuing place in God’s historical purpose. In fact, Paul’s entire argument depends upon holding both truths together:

They are presently unbelieving and need Christ.​

​

They nevertheless remain beloved concerning election because of the fathers.​

If “the beloved election” in verse 28 simply meant the believing Church, why would Paul add “for the sake of the fathers”? The Church is beloved in Christ, but the expression “for the sake of the fathers” points directly to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and God’s promises concerning Israel.

Your interpretation therefore removes the very tension Paul is explaining. Paul is not merely saying, “Believers are beloved and unbelievers are enemies.” That would require no three-chapter explanation. He is explaining the far more difficult truth that the same Israel presently opposing the gospel remains connected to an irrevocable divine calling because of the patriarchal promises. Their ancestry does not save them. They must turn to Christ. But their present unbelief has not made God’s promises to Israel disappear.

If the “beloved” group in Romans 11:28 is simply the Church, why does Paul say they are beloved “for the sake of the fathers” rather than “for the sake of Christ”?

 

[CTK]

For the nation of Israel, since Christ's first appearance, they are now equal to any Gentile country/nation, such as Iran, Russia, China etc. People of Jewish heritage have no preeminscense over anyone else, just because they ONCE WERE the chosen people of God

Might I remind you of Rom. 8:8-9.
8 So then they that are in the flesh [only] cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh [only], but in the Spirit [also], if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

There is nothing that I have mentioned in these few responses that disagrees with you. But there is nothing that prevents God from using them in any manner He chooses. And I have offered how I believe God will "remove the blindness of His people" after the "time of the Gentiles" and they will preach the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus for 3.5 years. This will restore their relationship with their God and fulfill the 4th and final Great Jubilee.

 

[covenantee]

In Romans 11 Paul is saying the opposite of what most people think he’s saying.

Paul in chapter 10 diagnoses Israel's failure as misguided zeal, self-righteousness, and willful disobedience. Then, in the later part of the chapter, he quotes Moses (Deut 32:21) on Israel being provoked to jealousy by "a foolish nation" - the Gentiles receiving what Israel had rejected.

Then in Romans 11 Paul is showing that even though ethnic Israel is being cast away, Paul being an Israelite, is not being cast away because he is Gods chosen people.

The chosen people have always been those who obey God and keep his covenant (Exodus
19:15).

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Amens bro.

Dispen/premil attempts to interpret "His people" ethnically.

But as you've and we've shown, "His people" are the foreknown spiritual "remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11:2,5

Those faithful and obedient Covenant keepers true to God and His Son.

 

[IndianaRob]

Amens bro.

Dispen/premil attempts to interpret "His people" ethnically.

But as you and we've shown, "His people" are the spiritual "remnant according to the election of grace." Romans 11:5

Those faithful and obedient Covenant keepers true to God and His Son.

It’s even spelled out in Exodus.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

And the interesting about that is the people that was directed at were Jews and non-Jews.

 

[Earburner]

In Romans 11 Paul is saying the opposite of what most people think he’s saying.

Paul in chapter 10 diagnoses Israel's failure as misguided zeal, self-righteousness, and willful disobedience. Then, in the later part of the chapter, he quotes Moses (Deut 32:21) on Israel being provoked to jealousy by "a foolish nation" - the Gentiles receiving what Israel had rejected.

Then in Romans 11 Paul is showing that even though ethnic Israel is being cast away, Paul being an Israelite, is not being cast away because he is Gods chosen people.

The chosen people have always been those who obey God and keep his covenant (Exodus
19:15).

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

It simply means that even though the KoG was taken away from them, God still allows them to be grafted back into the KoG,....BUT ONLY by each individual person of Israel having faith in the Lord Jesus.

They are not cast away from God's plan of salvation, but they are indeed outside the KoG, as is any unsaved Gentile.
In that meaning, "there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile". Before God the Father, ALL who are without Christ, are ALL equally sinful.
Edit:
And for this, you should also understand:
Since the KoG WAS TAKEN AWAY from Jewish Israel, and WAS GIVEN TO the "born again" Gentiles, one should KNOW that only after they come to REPENTANCE towards God, and have FAITH in the SHED blood of Christ, are they granted the free Gift of God's Eternal Holy Spirit!!
DON'T think that for one moment that any Jew by way of heritage of bloodline is going to re-enter back into the KoG by "some other way", NOW, OR IN ANY FUTURISTIC 1000 YEAR KoG on earth.

The time of God's salvation for everyone is NOW, and NOT IN THAT Glorious Day of His physical return from Heaven. Whoever was NOT SAVED before that Day, will NOT EVER be saved. Rom. 8:9.
Luke 17
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day [24 hours] that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them ALL.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day [24 hours] when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thes 1:7-10 agrees with Luke 17:28-30.

 

[IndianaRob]

It simply means that even though the KoG was taken away from them, God still allows them to be grafted back into the KoG,....BUT ONLY by each individual person of Israel having faith in the Lord Jesus.

They are not cast away from God's plan of salvation, but they are indeed outside the KoG, as is any unsaved Gentile.
In that meaning, "there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile". Before God the Father, ALL who are without Christ, are ALL equally sinful.

I agree that if I they accept Christ they will be grafted back in. The point I was making is that Paul is making clear that 1) the kingdom was taken from Israel, they are no long in charge of the oracles of God and the other things God had given them charge over. And 2), Paul is making it clear that Israel was not Gods elect.

 

[covenantee]

The “gifts” in this context are not Paul’s later discussion of spiritual abilities such as prophecy, healing, or tongues. Romans 9:4–5 has already identified Israel’s gifts and privileges:

the adoption,the glory,the covenants,the giving of the law,the worship,the promises,the patriarchs,and the Messiah according to the flesh.

Something's missing.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Salvation does not appear in the list.

Thus:
9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Because:
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

And the gifts and calling are exclusively for the Church, as seen previously.

 

[CTK]

Something's missing.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Salvation does not appear in the list.

Thus:
9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Because:
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

And the gifts and calling are exclusively for the Church, as seen previously.

I believe our disagreement is now sufficiently clear. You interpret every promise, election, gift, and calling concerning Israel as applying only to faithful believers—the remnant or the Church. Therefore, your framework does not allow ethnic Israel to retain any distinct prophetic purpose, either now or at the end of the age.

My understanding is different. I agree that no Jew is saved by ancestry and that every person must come to Christ through faith. However, I also believe Romans 11 teaches that Israel’s present blindness is partial and temporary, and that God still has a future work of mercy involving the people who presently reject their Messiah.

I have also explained my understanding that, during the final three and a half years, God will remove that blindness and use a restored Jewish witness to proclaim the good news before Christ’s return. You have not addressed that interpretation, apparently because your theological framework rules out any distinct future role for Israel from the beginning. I don't believe you have demonstrated hostility or animosity toward Jewish people, but you do come across as deeply committed to a replacement or remnant-only theology that leaves no distinct covenant role for ethnic Israel.

At this point, repeating our positions under different wording is unlikely to produce anything new. We agree that salvation is found only in Christ, but we disagree over whether God still has a distinct prophetic purpose for Israel. I am content to leave the discussion there.

 

[IndianaRob]

I believe our disagreement is now sufficiently clear. You interpret every promise, election, gift, and calling concerning Israel as applying only to faithful believers—the remnant or the Church. Therefore, your framework does not allow ethnic Israel to retain any distinct prophetic purpose, either now or at the end of the age.

My understanding is different. I agree that no Jew is saved by ancestry and that every person must come to Christ through faith. However, I also believe Romans 11 teaches that Israel’s present blindness is partial and temporary, and that God still has a future work of mercy involving the people who presently reject their Messiah.

I have also explained my understanding that, during the final three and a half years, God will remove that blindness and use a restored Jewish witness to proclaim the good news before Christ’s return. You have not addressed that interpretation, apparently because your theological framework rules out any distinct future role for Israel from the beginning. I don't believe you have demonstrated hostility or animosity toward Jewish people, but you do come across as deeply committed to a replacement or remnant-only theology that leaves no distinct covenant role for ethnic Israel.

At this point, repeating our positions under different wording is unlikely to produce anything new. We agree that salvation is found only in Christ, but we disagree over whether God still has a distinct prophetic purpose for Israel. I am content to leave the discussion there.

I don’t want to interrupt your conversation but I do want to throw this in. The only Israelis that were blinded were those Israelis that called for the murder of Jesus.

How do we know that? Because the Bible said that blindness would happen until the fulness of the gentiles be come in.

I know many Christian’s will say that means that “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” has an expiration date but it does not.

God has always used Gentile nations to judge Israel for its sins - Assyria, then Babylon, and finally Rome in 70 AD. That destruction was the fulness of that judgment, not a salvation event.

 

[CTK]

I don’t want to interrupt your conversation but I do want to throw this in. The only Israelis that were blinded were those Israelis that called for the murder of Jesus.

How do we know that? Because the Bible said that blindness would happen until the fulness of the gentiles be come in.

I know many Christian’s will say that means that “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” has an expiration date but it does not.

God has always used Gentile nations to judge Israel for its sins - Assyria, then Babylon, and finally Rome in 70 AD. That destruction was the fulness of that judgment, not a salvation event.

I certainly agree with you that “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” does not have an expiration date. Salvation will always be through faith in Christ, whether the person is Jew or Gentile. But I am not sure Romans 11 limits Israel’s blindness only to the individuals who personally called for Jesus’ death.

Paul says:

“Blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.”​

The phrase “in part” seems to distinguish the believing remnant from the larger portion of Israel that remained in unbelief. Paul is writing years after the cross, and his concern is not limited to the people standing before Pilate. He is discussing Israel’s continuing condition in relation to the gospel.

I also have difficulty identifying “the fullness of the Gentiles” with Rome’s destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. In Romans 11, Paul’s emphasis is not upon Gentile armies completing judgment. It is upon Gentiles being brought into God’s redemptive work: The "desolation" found in Daniel 9 is indeed the most horrible consequence that His people would experience as a result of their rejection of their God. That "desolation" or His spiritual separation from His people would continue until the "times of the Gentiles" is over - and that has yet to happen. The destruction of the physical temple in 70 AD is to be candid, meaningless, because when the Messiah came He had fulfilled the need for a temple, a sanctuary, any further animal sacrifices, the high priest, etc., They were all a type and shadow of His coming. But their rejection of Him would have the most devastating consequences for the next 2000 years when He would turn His face from them. I certainly agree that God used Rome to judge Jerusalem in AD 70. But judgment upon Jerusalem and the fullness of the Gentiles do not appear to be the same event in Paul’s argument.

But, for those Gentiles that would accept Jesus, they would be grafted in, while Israel experiences a partial hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, and then Israel is shown mercy.

Further, a future removal of Israel’s blindness mean that Gentile salvation ends. It would simply mean that the people who have long resisted their Messiah are finally enabled to recognize Him. Jew and Gentile would still be saved in exactly the same way—through Jesus Christ.

 

[covenantee]

I believe our disagreement is now sufficiently clear. You interpret every promise, election, gift, and calling concerning Israel as applying only to faithful believers—the remnant or the Church. Therefore, your framework does not allow ethnic Israel to retain any distinct prophetic purpose, either now or at the end of the age.

My understanding is different. I agree that no Jew is saved by ancestry and that every person must come to Christ through faith. However, I also believe Romans 11 teaches that Israel’s present blindness is partial and temporary, and that God still has a future work of mercy involving the people who presently reject their Messiah.

I have also explained my understanding that, during the final three and a half years, God will remove that blindness and use a restored Jewish witness to proclaim the good news before Christ’s return. You have not addressed that interpretation, apparently because your theological framework rules out any distinct future role for Israel from the beginning. I don't believe you have demonstrated hostility or animosity toward Jewish people, but you do come across as deeply committed to a replacement or remnant-only theology that leaves no distinct covenant role for ethnic Israel.

At this point, repeating our positions under different wording is unlikely to produce anything new. We agree that salvation is found only in Christ, but we disagree over whether God still has a distinct prophetic purpose for Israel. I am content to leave the discussion there.

Fair enough.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel" in Christ, comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.

 

[CTK]

ok

 

[CTK]

@covenantee This will be my final response within this thread. If you still have a need or want to keep your "replacement theology" that is certainly up to you.

Israel, the Church, and the Future Removal of Blindness​

I believe our disagreement can be made much simpler if we begin with the people living after the cross.

There are four basic groups:

1. Jews who believe in Jesus.
2. Jews who do not believe in Jesus.
3. Gentiles who believe in Jesus.
4. Gentiles who do not believe in Jesus.

The fourth group includes people from every non-Jewish background who remain outside Christ—whether they are atheists, Hindus, Muslims, or follow some other belief.

The first truth we should establish is that no one is saved by ancestry. A Jewish person is not saved merely because he is descended from Abraham. A Gentile is not saved merely because he is sincere or religious. Both Jew and Gentile must come to Jesus Christ through faith.

Paul makes this very clear.

“There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him.” —Romans 10:12

So, regarding salvation, Jews and Gentiles enter in the same way.

Now let us look at the four groups separately.

1. Gentiles who reject Christ

Gentiles who reject Christ remain outside salvation. Their nationality, religion, education, or good intentions cannot save them. They must come to Christ.

2. Gentiles who accept Christ

Gentiles who believe in Jesus are brought into God’s people by faith. Paul describes them as wild olive branches grafted into a cultivated olive tree:

“And you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them.”—Romans 11:17

They were not natural branches of that tree, but God graciously brought them in through faith. Paul warns these Gentile believers not to boast against the natural branches:

“Boast not against the branches.” —Romans 11:18

That warning is important. Gentiles have been included by grace. They have not replaced the natural branches or become superior to them.

3. Jews who accept Christ

Jews who believe in Jesus are the believing remnant of Israel. Paul himself is an example:

“For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” —Romans 11:1

Paul did not stop being Jewish when he believed in Jesus. He became part of the faithful remnant within Israel. Paul says:

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” —Romans 11:5

These Jewish believers are saved through Christ just as Gentile believers are. Together, believing Jews and Gentiles belong to the one body of Christ.

4. Jews who reject Christ

This is the group at the center of our disagreement. These Jews are not saved merely because they are Jewish. Paul says they were broken off because of unbelief:

“Because of unbelief they were broken off.” —Romans 11:20

They are not presently enjoying salvation. They must believe in Jesus. But Paul does not say that they have ceased to be Israel. He still calls them the natural branches. He still calls them his relatives according to the flesh. He still prays for Israel to be saved. He still says they can be grafted in again.

“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in.” —Romans 11:23

Notice what Paul says:

He does not say they become an entirely different people when they believe.​

​

He says the natural branches can be grafted in again.​

Their unbelief has removed them from present covenant blessing, but it has not changed their identity as the natural branches. That is the difference between individual salvation and God’s continuing purpose for a people. An individual Jewish person is saved only when he believes in Christ. But the Jewish people as a group still remain the people Paul describes as the natural branches, the descendants of the fathers, and the people experiencing partial blindness.

Paul then says:

“Blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” —Romans 11:25

This blindness is not upon the Church.

It is not upon believing Gentiles.​

​

It is upon Israel.​

​

It is also not total, because there has always been a believing Jewish remnant.​

And Paul does not describe it as permanent. He says it continues “until” the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. That word “until” matters. It points toward a change. Paul continues:

“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.” —Romans 11:26

Paul does not say that unbelieving Jews will be saved while continuing to reject Jesus.

Their blindness must be removed.​

​

Their unbelief must end.​

​

Ungodliness must be turned away from Jacob.​

​

They must come to the Deliverer.​

Therefore, the disagreement is not about whether Jews need Jesus. We agree that they do. The disagreement is about whether God will bring about a future collective turning among the Jewish people, rather than only scattered individual conversions throughout history.

Paul gives us several reasons to expect more than isolated conversions.

Israel’s blindness is partial.​

​

Israel’s blindness continues until an appointed point.​

​

The natural branches can be grafted in again.​

​

Those presently disobedient are shown mercy.​

​

They remain beloved because of the fathers.​

​

God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable.​

Paul says:

“As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” —Romans 11:28–29

This does not mean unbelieving Jews are already saved. It means that their present unbelief has not erased God’s relationship to the promises made through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Paul holds two truths together:

Unbelieving Israel presently needs salvation.​

​

God has not finished His purpose concerning Israel.​

Outside of Romans

Once we understand Paul’s argument, we can compare it with the other prophets. Zechariah speaks of the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem looking upon the One they pierced:

“They shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him.” —Zechariah 12:10

This describes recognition, mourning, and repentance among the people connected with Jerusalem and the house of David.

Revelation 7 describes 144,000 sealed from the tribes of Israel.

Revelation 14 describes them standing with the Lamb, following Him, speaking without deceit, and being called first fruits to God and the Lamb.

These passages do not teach that Jews are saved apart from Jesus. They present Jews who have come to recognize and follow the Lamb.

That fits naturally with Romans 11:

Israel is partly blind.​

​

The Gentile mission proceeds.​

​

The appointed fullness is reached.​

​

The blindness is removed.​

​

The natural branches turn to Christ.​

​

God uses a purified Israelite remnant in His final purpose.​

Believing Gentiles are not removed when this happens. Salvation does not close to them. “Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” remains true. The removal of Israel’s blindness does not mean Gentiles are rejected.It means Jews and Gentiles are finally seeing the same Messiah clearly.

So the simple picture is this:

A Gentile who rejects Christ remains outside salvation.​

​

A Jew who rejects Christ also remains outside salvation.​

​

A Gentile who accepts Christ is grafted in by faith.​

​

A Jew who accepts Christ is grafted in again as a natural branch.​

At present, individual Jews continue to come to Christ as part of the believing remnant. But Romans 11 appears to point beyond those individual conversions to a future change in Israel’s condition as a people. That is why ethnic Israel has not become meaningless in God’s plan.

Their ancestry cannot save them.​

​

Their religious history cannot save them.​

​

Their national identity cannot save them.​

​

Only Jesus can save them.​

But Paul still identifies them as Israel, still calls them the natural branches, still connects them with the fathers, and still speaks of their blindness as temporary. Therefore, God’s future work among Israel would not be a second way of salvation. It would be the same salvation through Jesus Christ, now received by the people whose blindness has finally been removed. That is what Romans, Zechariah, and Revelation ask us to consider.

 

[covenantee]

@covenantee This will be my final response within this thread. If you still have a need or want to keep your "replacement theology" that is certainly up to you.

Israel, the Church, and the Future Removal of Blindness​

I believe our disagreement can be made much simpler if we begin with the people living after the cross.

There are four basic groups:

1. Jews who believe in Jesus.
2. Jews who do not believe in Jesus.
3. Gentiles who believe in Jesus.
4. Gentiles who do not believe in Jesus.

The fourth group includes people from every non-Jewish background who remain outside Christ—whether they are atheists, Hindus, Muslims, or follow some other belief.

The first truth we should establish is that no one is saved by ancestry. A Jewish person is not saved merely because he is descended from Abraham. A Gentile is not saved merely because he is sincere or religious. Both Jew and Gentile must come to Jesus Christ through faith.

Paul makes this very clear.

“There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him.” —Romans 10:12

So, regarding salvation, Jews and Gentiles enter in the same way.

Now let us look at the four groups separately.

1. Gentiles who reject Christ

Gentiles who reject Christ remain outside salvation. Their nationality, religion, education, or good intentions cannot save them. They must come to Christ.

2. Gentiles who accept Christ

Gentiles who believe in Jesus are brought into God’s people by faith. Paul describes them as wild olive branches grafted into a cultivated olive tree:

“And you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them.”—Romans 11:17

They were not natural branches of that tree, but God graciously brought them in through faith. Paul warns these Gentile believers not to boast against the natural branches:

“Boast not against the branches.” —Romans 11:18

That warning is important. Gentiles have been included by grace. They have not replaced the natural branches or become superior to them.

3. Jews who accept Christ

Jews who believe in Jesus are the believing remnant of Israel. Paul himself is an example:

“For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” —Romans 11:1

Paul did not stop being Jewish when he believed in Jesus. He became part of the faithful remnant within Israel. Paul says:

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” —Romans 11:5

These Jewish believers are saved through Christ just as Gentile believers are. Together, believing Jews and Gentiles belong to the one body of Christ.

4. Jews who reject Christ

This is the group at the center of our disagreement. These Jews are not saved merely because they are Jewish. Paul says they were broken off because of unbelief:

“Because of unbelief they were broken off.” —Romans 11:20

They are not presently enjoying salvation. They must believe in Jesus. But Paul does not say that they have ceased to be Israel. He still calls them the natural branches. He still calls them his relatives according to the flesh. He still prays for Israel to be saved. He still says they can be grafted in again.

“And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in.” —Romans 11:23

Notice what Paul says:

He does not say they become an entirely different people when they believe.​

​

He says the natural branches can be grafted in again.​

Their unbelief has removed them from present covenant blessing, but it has not changed their identity as the natural branches. That is the difference between individual salvation and God’s continuing purpose for a people. An individual Jewish person is saved only when he believes in Christ. But the Jewish people as a group still remain the people Paul describes as the natural branches, the descendants of the fathers, and the people experiencing partial blindness.

Paul then says:

“Blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” —Romans 11:25

This blindness is not upon the Church.

It is not upon believing Gentiles.​

​

It is upon Israel.​

​

It is also not total, because there has always been a believing Jewish remnant.​

And Paul does not describe it as permanent. He says it continues “until” the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. That word “until” matters. It points toward a change. Paul continues:

“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.” —Romans 11:26

Paul does not say that unbelieving Jews will be saved while continuing to reject Jesus.

Their blindness must be removed.​

​

Their unbelief must end.​

​

Ungodliness must be turned away from Jacob.​

​

They must come to the Deliverer.​

Therefore, the disagreement is not about whether Jews need Jesus. We agree that they do. The disagreement is about whether God will bring about a future collective turning among the Jewish people, rather than only scattered individual conversions throughout history.

Paul gives us several reasons to expect more than isolated conversions.

Israel’s blindness is partial.​

​

Israel’s blindness continues until an appointed point.​

​

The natural branches can be grafted in again.​

​

Those presently disobedient are shown mercy.​

​

They remain beloved because of the fathers.​

​

God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable.​

Paul says:

“As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.” —Romans 11:28–29

This does not mean unbelieving Jews are already saved. It means that their present unbelief has not erased God’s relationship to the promises made through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Paul holds two truths together:

Unbelieving Israel presently needs salvation.​

​

God has not finished His purpose concerning Israel.​

Outside of Romans

Once we understand Paul’s argument, we can compare it with the other prophets. Zechariah speaks of the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem looking upon the One they pierced:

“They shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him.” —Zechariah 12:10

This describes recognition, mourning, and repentance among the people connected with Jerusalem and the house of David.

Revelation 7 describes 144,000 sealed from the tribes of Israel.

Revelation 14 describes them standing with the Lamb, following Him, speaking without deceit, and being called first fruits to God and the Lamb.

These passages do not teach that Jews are saved apart from Jesus. They present Jews who have come to recognize and follow the Lamb.

That fits naturally with Romans 11:

Israel is partly blind.​

​

The Gentile mission proceeds.​

​

The appointed fullness is reached.​

​

The blindness is removed.​

​

The natural branches turn to Christ.​

​

God uses a purified Israelite remnant in His final purpose.​

Believing Gentiles are not removed when this happens. Salvation does not close to them. “Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” remains true. The removal of Israel’s blindness does not mean Gentiles are rejected.It means Jews and Gentiles are finally seeing the same Messiah clearly.

So the simple picture is this:

A Gentile who rejects Christ remains outside salvation.​

​

A Jew who rejects Christ also remains outside salvation.​

​

A Gentile who accepts Christ is grafted in by faith.​

​

A Jew who accepts Christ is grafted in again as a natural branch.​

At present, individual Jews continue to come to Christ as part of the believing remnant. But Romans 11 appears to point beyond those individual conversions to a future change in Israel’s condition as a people. That is why ethnic Israel has not become meaningless in God’s plan.

Their ancestry cannot save them.​

​

Their religious history cannot save them.​

​

Their national identity cannot save them.​

​

Only Jesus can save them.​

But Paul still identifies them as Israel, still calls them the natural branches, still connects them with the fathers, and still speaks of their blindness as temporary. Therefore, God’s future work among Israel would not be a second way of salvation. It would be the same salvation through Jesus Christ, now received by the people whose blindness has finally been removed. That is what Romans, Zechariah, and Revelation ask us to consider.

If Paul had believed that all ethnic Israel would be saved, he would have been beyond ecstatic.

But he wasn't, and we've seen the distinctions that he draws between the Israel that will be saved and the Israel that will not be saved.

The difference being between faithfulness and obedience, and unfaithfulness and disobedience.

A microcosm of the entirety of humanity.