WHO IS THE ROCK? JESUS OR PETER
- Thread starter Doug
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
'But those things,
.. which God before had shewed
.... by the mouth of all His prophets,
...... that Christ should suffer,
........ He hath so fulfilled.
Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come
from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ,
which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive
until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken
by the mouth of all His holy prophets
since the world began.'
(Act 3:18-21)
Hello @Doug,
The church which is the Body of Christ was brought into being following the departure of the nation of Israel into the darkness of unbelief, at the end of the Acts period: having failed to respond to the words of Peter way back in Acts 3:18-21 (above) approximately 40 yrs previously: and also the attempt to make them jealous by the grafting in of believing Gentiles into Israel's Olive Tree (Acts 10 & Rom. 11:11) , who partook of the root and fatness of Israel's Olive Tree, receiving the blessings of Abraham, manifested by the gifts of the Spirit (Gal.3:14).
The nation in the land of Israel itself rejected the Lord Jesus Christ, and also finally in the diaspora in Acts 28, which resulted in Paul quoting the words of Isaiah 6:9-10. The forty years of probation in which Israel was given the opportunity to come to repentance came to an end, and now yet awaits a future fulfillment.
The knowledge concerning the church which is the Body of Christ, was revealed to Paul by the risen Christ, and made known through Him to the saints and faithful in Christ Jesus, in person and in writing, in the letters written while Paul was 'The Lord's Prisoner' (Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim. Tit.& Phile.)
The knowledge that God gave to Peter, to give reply to the Lord's question in Matthew 16, 'Whom say ye that I am', is the rock upon which the Lord would build His church. This God given truth concerning His Son:- 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'
* Paul speaking to, 'the church of God,' at Corinth (1 Cor. 1:2), said concerning that assembly:-
'According to the grace of God which is given unto me,
as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation,
and another buildeth thereon.
But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid,
which is Jesus Christ.'
(1Co 3:10-11)
* See reply#10
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Here is what I posted earlier.... Do you disagree with any of this? Look forward to your thoughts.
I don't see it the same way... please consider---Jesus blesses Peter for a revelation the Father gave him—“You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God”—and then entrusts him with “the keys,” which in Jewish usage mark a steward/teacher’s role (Matthew 13:52; Luke 11:52). In that setting, “binding and loosing” is legislative/interpretive authority—teaching what is permitted and what is not—rather than priestly absolution in that moment. Peter is thus a first steward of the revealed confession, not the cornerstone; Christ remains the foundation and builder (1 Corinthians 3:11; Ephesians 2:20). And the same authority is soon shared with the wider apostolic body (Matthew 18:18), which is exactly what we see in Acts 15 when Peter helps “loose” the Gentiles from the yoke of the Judaizers. In short: the church is built on the revealed truth of Jesus’ identity; Peter is entrusted to steward and teach that truth.
You are correct. The word for rock refers to Jesus Christ...upon this rock I will build my church. The word used for Peter means "little stone." Peter isn't the rock.
[Eph 2:20 KJV] 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
Hello @Doug,
Just responding to what you said concerning the Church which is the body of Christ: and your words concerning Peter in (#13).
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Bladerunner
Active Member
"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Co 10:4.......This is the WORD of GOD Himself.
The Rock
What saith the scriptures…. to the words of the apostle Paul in I Cor 10:4 where he says of the Israelites in the wilderness, that they all drank "the same spiritual drink for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them; and that rock was Christ." It is argued from this that Christ Himself personally accompanied the people of Israel as they journeyed through the wilderness to the promised land. The verse is often tied in with several Old Testament texts which describe Yahweh as a Rock (Deut 32:4; Ps 18:2,31).
Since Yahweh is the rock, and Christ is also the rock who accompanied Israel, Christ must therefore be Yahweh, it is believed. This interpretation, common though it is, suffers from a number of serious defects. The first of these concerns the meaning of the term "Christ". Too often we use it simply as a proper name for Jesus as if it were His surname. "Christos" is the Greek form of the Hebrew word "Messiah", meaning "the anointed one". It was a title given to the Kings of Israel. David was a "messiah" and was a type, or forerunner, of the one who would deliver the people of Israel and establish the Kingdom of God. the coming of the Messiah is a common theme of OT prophecy. He was to be the "seed of Abraham" Gen 3:15; Gal 3:8,16, "the seed of Judah" Gen49:10; I Chron. 5:2, and the "seed of David" II Sam &:12~14; Isa 11:1,10;Rom.1:3;II Tim2:8. "Seed" in all these scriptures means "descendant" This points to the fact that the Messiah was prophesied to arise from the human race.
Nothing in the OT suggests that the promised seed was already in existence in another form. For Paul to have taught that the Messiah was personally present with Israel would have been a staggering contradiction of the words of the prophets. The second major objection to this theory is the fact that God used angels to minister to Israel.
The NT declares in three places that the law was given by angels, Acts7:38,53, Gal 3:9 & Heb2:2. In each of these passages the angelic giving of the Law forms an important part of the debate. Study each in its context with care and you will see that the common theme is the superiority of the Gospel to the Law. The Law was given only by angels but the Gospel was brought by the Son of God and is therefore vastly superior to it. Christ could not have had any part, therefore, either in giving the Law to Israel, or in ministering to the Israelites in the wilderness. Since the Messiah could not have been present personally in the wilderness, Paul's statement must mean that the Rock represented or typified Christ in some way. It is not uncommon for Scripture to use the verb "to be" in a representational sense. Jesus said "I am the Door" Jn 10:7, "I am the true Vine" Jn 15:1. In the instution of the Lord's supper he said that the bread "is my body" and the cup "is my blood" I Cor11:24,25, clearly meant that they symbolized his broken body and shed blood.
This interpretation is strengthened by a close study of the whole passage from verse 1 to verse 11 of 1 Corinthians 10. Twice Paul states that the experiences of Israel were examples for us (vv.6,11). the Greek word used here actually means "types". The passing of the Israelites through the cloud and through the Red Sea was a type of Christian baptism. They were baptized "into Moses" (v. 2, NASB) as we are baptized "into Christ" (Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27). Verses 3 and 4 continue the typological parallel by referring to the incidents of the giving of the manna in Exodus 16, and the incidents at Rephidim and Kadesh when God miraculously supplied water out of a rock (Ex. 17:1-7; Num. 20: 1-13). The "spiritual" food mentioned in verse 3 is clearly the manna miraculously given daily to Israel over a period of 40 years. The giving of the manna is recorded in Exodus 16 and forms the background to John 6.
There are two incidents involving a rock recorded during the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites and it is important to notice the difference between them. The first incident occurred just after the miraculous giving of the manna. Israel arrived at Rephidim (Ex. 17:1) and immediately began to complain about lack of water, whereupon God commanded Moses to strike the rock. Water gushed out and the people's thirst was satisfied. The striking of the rock typifies the fact that Christ our Rock was smitten for us. The miraculous giving of the water typifies the giving of the Holy Spirit, the water of Life (John 7:37-39).
The second incident occurred toward the end of the wandering in the wilderness. Again, Israel complained for lack of water and again God provided for their needs. This time, however, he clearly instructed Moses to speak to the rock, but in his anger Moses disobeyed and struck the rock twice (Num. 20: 1-12). In smiting the rock instead of speaking to it Moses was guilty of destroying the type. The rock in Exodus 17 typified Christ in the flesh, smitten to give to us the water of life while the rock in Numbers 20 typified Christ our High Priest, not to be smitten twice (cp. Heb. 6:6), but only to be spoken to to supply the water of life.
The first incident occurred at the beginning of the wanderings, the second at the end; both incidents thus form a parable of Christ's continuous presence with his people during their "wilderness wanderings." The two incidents we have looked at took place in entirely different locations and there is a different Hebrew word for "rock" used in each place. In Exodus 17 the word is tsur and in Numbers 20 it is sela.
So what does Paul mean when he states that "they drank of that spiritual rock which followed them"? Obviously, a literal rock did not accompany Israel through the wilderness and many feel that this is proof that Christ himself went with them. The answer is that Paul is using the language of Christian experience and reading it back into the Old Testament type. This is shown clearly by his reference to baptism in verses 1 and 2. The Israelites were not literally "baptized". In fact, we are told that the water did not come near them; they walked dryshod through the Red Sea. But their experience is a close enough parallel for Paul to say they were baptized "into Moses". Likewise the rock did not literally follow them. It was simply a type of Christ accompanying us through life.
Well, this is about the best I can do to help you understand this topic. I hope it helps.
What saith the scriptures…. to the words of the apostle Paul in I Cor 10:4 where he says of the Israelites in the wilderness, that they all drank "the same spiritual drink for they drank of that spiritual rock that followed them; and that rock was Christ." It is argued from this that Christ Himself personally accompanied the people of Israel as they journeyed through the wilderness to the promised land. The verse is often tied in with several Old Testament texts which describe Yahweh as a Rock (Deut 32:4; Ps 18:2,31).
Since Yahweh is the rock, and Christ is also the rock who accompanied Israel, Christ must therefore be Yahweh, it is believed. This interpretation, common though it is, suffers from a number of serious defects. The first of these concerns the meaning of the term "Christ". Too often we use it simply as a proper name for Jesus as if it were His surname. "Christos" is the Greek form of the Hebrew word "Messiah", meaning "the anointed one". It was a title given to the Kings of Israel. David was a "messiah" and was a type, or forerunner, of the one who would deliver the people of Israel and establish the Kingdom of God. the coming of the Messiah is a common theme of OT prophecy. He was to be the "seed of Abraham" Gen 3:15; Gal 3:8,16, "the seed of Judah" Gen49:10; I Chron. 5:2, and the "seed of David" II Sam &:12~14; Isa 11:1,10;Rom.1:3;II Tim2:8. "Seed" in all these scriptures means "descendant" This points to the fact that the Messiah was prophesied to arise from the human race.
Nothing in the OT suggests that the promised seed was already in existence in another form. For Paul to have taught that the Messiah was personally present with Israel would have been a staggering contradiction of the words of the prophets. The second major objection to this theory is the fact that God used angels to minister to Israel.
The NT declares in three places that the law was given by angels, Acts7:38,53, Gal 3:9 & Heb2:2. In each of these passages the angelic giving of the Law forms an important part of the debate. Study each in its context with care and you will see that the common theme is the superiority of the Gospel to the Law. The Law was given only by angels but the Gospel was brought by the Son of God and is therefore vastly superior to it. Christ could not have had any part, therefore, either in giving the Law to Israel, or in ministering to the Israelites in the wilderness. Since the Messiah could not have been present personally in the wilderness, Paul's statement must mean that the Rock represented or typified Christ in some way. It is not uncommon for Scripture to use the verb "to be" in a representational sense. Jesus said "I am the Door" Jn 10:7, "I am the true Vine" Jn 15:1. In the instution of the Lord's supper he said that the bread "is my body" and the cup "is my blood" I Cor11:24,25, clearly meant that they symbolized his broken body and shed blood.
This interpretation is strengthened by a close study of the whole passage from verse 1 to verse 11 of 1 Corinthians 10. Twice Paul states that the experiences of Israel were examples for us (vv.6,11). the Greek word used here actually means "types". The passing of the Israelites through the cloud and through the Red Sea was a type of Christian baptism. They were baptized "into Moses" (v. 2, NASB) as we are baptized "into Christ" (Rom. 6:3; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27). Verses 3 and 4 continue the typological parallel by referring to the incidents of the giving of the manna in Exodus 16, and the incidents at Rephidim and Kadesh when God miraculously supplied water out of a rock (Ex. 17:1-7; Num. 20: 1-13). The "spiritual" food mentioned in verse 3 is clearly the manna miraculously given daily to Israel over a period of 40 years. The giving of the manna is recorded in Exodus 16 and forms the background to John 6.
There are two incidents involving a rock recorded during the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites and it is important to notice the difference between them. The first incident occurred just after the miraculous giving of the manna. Israel arrived at Rephidim (Ex. 17:1) and immediately began to complain about lack of water, whereupon God commanded Moses to strike the rock. Water gushed out and the people's thirst was satisfied. The striking of the rock typifies the fact that Christ our Rock was smitten for us. The miraculous giving of the water typifies the giving of the Holy Spirit, the water of Life (John 7:37-39).
The second incident occurred toward the end of the wandering in the wilderness. Again, Israel complained for lack of water and again God provided for their needs. This time, however, he clearly instructed Moses to speak to the rock, but in his anger Moses disobeyed and struck the rock twice (Num. 20: 1-12). In smiting the rock instead of speaking to it Moses was guilty of destroying the type. The rock in Exodus 17 typified Christ in the flesh, smitten to give to us the water of life while the rock in Numbers 20 typified Christ our High Priest, not to be smitten twice (cp. Heb. 6:6), but only to be spoken to to supply the water of life.
The first incident occurred at the beginning of the wanderings, the second at the end; both incidents thus form a parable of Christ's continuous presence with his people during their "wilderness wanderings." The two incidents we have looked at took place in entirely different locations and there is a different Hebrew word for "rock" used in each place. In Exodus 17 the word is tsur and in Numbers 20 it is sela.
So what does Paul mean when he states that "they drank of that spiritual rock which followed them"? Obviously, a literal rock did not accompany Israel through the wilderness and many feel that this is proof that Christ himself went with them. The answer is that Paul is using the language of Christian experience and reading it back into the Old Testament type. This is shown clearly by his reference to baptism in verses 1 and 2. The Israelites were not literally "baptized". In fact, we are told that the water did not come near them; they walked dryshod through the Red Sea. But their experience is a close enough parallel for Paul to say they were baptized "into Moses". Likewise the rock did not literally follow them. It was simply a type of Christ accompanying us through life.
Well, this is about the best I can do to help you understand this topic. I hope it helps.
Taken
Well-Known Member
WHO IS THE ROCK? JESUS OR PETER
WHAT IS “The Rock”?
Deut 32.
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
WHO IS “The Rock”?
Lord God Almighty.
Does that apply to ANY human? No.
Glory to God,
Taken
WHAT IS “The Rock”?
Deut 32.
[4] He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
WHO IS “The Rock”?
Lord God Almighty.
Does that apply to ANY human? No.
Glory to God,
Taken
I disagree with this. Christ is the LORD
[Jhn 1:1 KJV]
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Jesus is God
Yes Moses was told only to speak to the rock, the rock pictures Christ only smitten once
They were baptized but baptism isnt always by water
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
The rock in MAtthew is neither Peter nor Jesus. It is the declaration that Peter made that jesus is the Christ, the son of the living god.
Bladerunner
Active Member
The Rock is Jesus;...Upon this Rock, I will build my Church. a Church of true believers, a church that holds both Jew and Gentile true believers alike, a church that was spiritually born in Acts 1,2 and has continued for 2,000 years, A church that will be "caught up" the Haroazo to Heaven before Daniel's 70th week and a Church that will be with him constantly throughout eternity for we will be like Him!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The keys of the kingdom is the message of the Gospel...it is the message of forgiveness. It liberates people. All God's people have the privilege and gift to forgive sins.
That wasnt given to us. The keys were given to Peter to be exercised in regard to the kingdom on earth
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes Jesus is the Rock, but not this one. As for the Church Jesus is explicitly described as the chief cornerstone as said in Eph. 2:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
But in the Matt. passage the rock is the fact that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God. It is this fact that the church is built upon
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
All who believe God has forgiven their sins have the privilege and the desire to share this gift with others. It opens heaven, it opens life....it was for this purpose Jesus came.
When there is no desire to share forgiveness, one has not seen forgiveness.
Similar threads
