Who Really, Are the Jews?

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Who are the Biblical Jews?

  • All Israelites of the 12 tribes

    Votes: 4 57.1%
  • Those of the northern "kingdom of Israel"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Those of the southern "kingdom of Judah"

    Votes: 3 42.9%
  • Strangers in holy land only

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Samaritans

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    7
  • Poll closed .

Davy

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Although we know in part and ptophiesy in part, I don't believe I have misinterpreted Ezekiel 36, because God there, is really speaking about the "House of Israel" which included the Gentiles, as seen in the example of the woman from Canaan who was coming into this fold, whose faith Jesus said, "Be it done according as you will." [Mat. 15:22-28].
Consider John 10:16 which reads:
"Other sheep I have which are not of this fold [Jews]: them [Gentiles] also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

No I'm NOT confused!!! But???....some people throw words about without really knowing what they say.

To God Be The Glory

Sorry, but no, the "house of Israel" in God's Word is SPECIFIC to the northern ten tribes of Israel. Now the believing Gentiles are... joined with the believing 'seed' of Israel in respect to The Gospel, and even in the promises and covenants, like Apostle Paul showed in Ephesians 2 (which I already pointed to with Paul's "commonwealth of Israel" idea).

But like God said in Jeremiah 31...

Jer 31:35-37
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.

37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
KJV


What you apparently do not yet understand, is that if the literal 'seed' of Israel no longer existed, then it would mean those promises would no longer exist, not even for the believing Gentiles. And just who would want that? The devil himself.

And just to let you know, even the king line of the house of David is STILL existing today, upon this earth, as God had promised to David that there would never fail one of David's seed to sit upon the throne of Israel unto all generations (2 Samuel 7; Genesis 49:10).
 

Davy

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Although we know in part and ptophiesy in part, I don't believe I have misinterpreted Ezekiel 36, because God there, is really speaking about the "House of Israel" which included the Gentiles, as seen in the example of the woman from Canaan who was coming into this fold, whose faith Jesus said, "Be it done according as you will." [Mat. 15:22-28].
Consider John 10:16 which reads:
"Other sheep I have which are not of this fold [Jews]: them [Gentiles] also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

No I'm NOT confused!!! But???....some people throw words about without really knowing what they say.

To God Be The Glory

Also, you do... need to study the subject of the Ezekiel 36 Chapter again, because it is about Christ's future Kingdom to come.

Here's part of it to prove my point, since you seem to want to try and be a bit testy...

Ezek 36:1-15
1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, 'Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:

2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, 'Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:'
3 Therefore prophesy and say, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;


God spoke that to the land of Israel, in the holy land. Today, only a very small piece of God's originally promised lands to Israel are inhabited by the Jews. The rest has been engulfed by the nations around the state of Israel. But in Ezekiel's day, who was in the Babylon captivity at this point in time, the ten tribes about 120 years earlier had already been removed from the holy land and taken captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes. And since God gave Ezekiel to be a prophet to the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), this is especially about them having been removed out of the northern lands of Israel, and foreigners from Babylon were instead inserted in the land in place of the ten tribes, which those became known as Samaritans.


5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of My jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed My land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

Idumea is another title for the children of Esau, Jacob's elder brother who believed Jacob stole his birthright. Esau married among the daughters of Ishmael, and among the Canaanites, which his father and mother said to not do. And Idumea-Ishmael today specifically make up the peoples living in many of the lands surrounding today's state of Israel, lands which God originally ordained to the seed of Israel.

This very subject about Idumea usurping the lands of Israel continues into Ezekiel 38 about the foreign nation alignments for the end of this world, with the Gog/Magog host coming upon Israel in the latter days to destroy, and with God raining fire and brimstone upon that great army coming out of the northern quarters.


6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in My jealousy and in My fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:

God is jealous for His chosen Israel. And He will recompense. The land that belongs to Israel which He gave them, even those lands in the north where the ten tribes originally dwelt, have been in shame because of foreign peoples dwelling in it instead, and they are STILL there today! So how can one not understand this is prophecy for today and still future?

The future parts of this prophecy is coming up next...


7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up Mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to My people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.


Well, right now, the majority of the seed of Israel are still scattered among the Gentile nations. But God says here the land will shoot forth its branches, and yield its fruit to His chosen of Israel, for they are at hand to come. This isn't just about a remnant of Jews returning to the land in 1948. This is about all 12 tribes of Israel returning to the land, and inhabiting the original habitations God gave their fathers. When will that happen?? When Jesus returns in our near future!


9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

There God is even referring to bringing all the "house of Israel" back to the holy land and re-establishing them like their old inheritances. That has NEVER happened yet to this day! That final layout of all 12 tribes in the holy land is documented in the Ezekiel 48 Chapter. And remember, Jesus promised His 12 Apostles would each sit upon a throne judging the 12 tribes of Israel in His future Kingdom (Matthew 19:28).


12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even My people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

Again, God is showing the original inheritances He gave the seed of Israel will be manifested there once again. It certainly is not yet manifested today, as only the "house of Judah" is there now in the land, but only in a small portion of it.


13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, 'Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations;
14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more,' saith the Lord GOD.
15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV


That is about the prophesied FUTURE RETURN of the ten tribe "house of Israel". That was who Ezekiel was sent to speak to per Ezekiel 3.
 

Davy

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Yes, I do know very well who it is you're speaking about. Yeah, look in the mirror!!!

No reason for you to be belligerent, just because God's written Word does not agree with the doctrine you are trying to push. I suggest you do more Bible study, and forget whatever jealousy you may have against the literal seed of God's chosen Israel. If the preachers you listen to are telling you that God's chosen seed of Israel no longer have an existence in Christ's future Kingdom per The New Covenant, then those men are telling lies to you.
 

The Disciple John

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Only partially.

The Genesis 35 and 48 prophecies to Jacob and Ephraim is specifically about their SEED in the sense of literal FLESH SEED.

Would they eventually begin to INCLUDE believing Gentiles in Christ? Yep! That's why Paul quoted from the Book of Hosea in Romans 9 also, which Hosea was written to the ten tribes of Israel of what God was getting ready to do to them for their falling away.

OK, the mystery... but most here won't like it:

God gave ten tribes to Jeroboam, who was born of the tribe of Ephraim. The tribe of Ephraim became the 'head' tribe over the ten northern tribes. Solomon had even appointed Jeroboam as a leader over the northern ten tribes even before God split the old kingdom in Solomon's day.

These verses point to God's plan for the 'seed' of Ephraim...

Deut 33:17
17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

KJV

Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations", and Manasseh's seed also was to become "great". Both were ordained to push the people together to the ends of the earth, put for their strong military power God would make of them. This was a prophecy continuing the one Jacob gave from God to them in Genesis 48. It was a continuation of God's promises to Abraham, that his seed would possess the gate of their enemies (Genesis 22:17). And because both of Joseph's sons were blessed together, they like Joseph represented the double-portion idea given to God's election.


Ps 60:7
7 Gilead is Mine, and Manasseh is Mine; Ephraim also is the strength of Mine head; Judah is My lawgiver;

KJV

Even though the ten tribes under Ephraim as head would be scattered by God, that prophecy above about them was still in effect. They would become a great number of seed in the world, Manasseh also, along with the rest of the ten tribes.


Ps 108:8
8 Gilead is Mine; Manasseh is Mine; Ephraim also is the strength of Mine head; Judah is My lawgiver;
KJV

Jer 31:9
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

KJV

That idea of Ephraim being God's "firstborn" is about the idea of election. Ephraim became the inheritor of God's Birthright promises (originally given to Abraham, then to Isaac, then to Jacob, and then finally to Ephraim and Manasseh where God's Birthright still exists today). But the Birthright part of chief royal ruler went to the tribe of Judah (and is to remain with Judah until Jesus comes - see Genesis 49:10) ...


1 Chron 5:1-2
5 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)
KJV

That is not just talking about a fleshy birthright, but God's Birthright which is different. It is about God's promises first given through Abraham, and one of the main promises was the Promise by Faith, i.e, The Gospel of Jesus Christ (see Galatians 3). Other parts of the promises involve the best lands and resources (i.e., plenty of corn and wine), possessing the gate of thy enemies (i.e., great military power), and The Gospel of course, and a literal seed as many as the stars and sands of the sea.


Ezek 37:16
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

KJV

As I've already shown elsewhere, the stick representing Joseph is in the hand of Ephraim, and the ten scattered tribes of Israel. They still exist today, just not in the holy land. But they still exist today because the above Ezekiel 37 prophecy is ONLY for the future at Christ's coming. That other stick, "For Judah", is about the "house of Judah", the JEWS today.

Historically what happened to the ten tribes when they were scattered out of the holy lands to Assyria and lands of the Medes, they became lost to themselves and to the world and to the Jews. Judah kept their heritage as part of Israel. But the ten tribes did not. God pretty much reveals all this through His prophet Hosea. God gave the ten tribes the full strength Baal worship they fell into. He scattered them for it, and they began to taken on other names from being among the Gentile nations. But God said He would lead them into the wilderness, and they would not find their way back. And there, He would one day speak softly to them, and take the names of Baali out of their mouths, and call Him "Ishi".

That actually happened to the ten tribes under Ephraim. They eventually left their captivity in Assyria and migrated mostly westward into Asia Minor and Europe. They would become the majority of the people of the western nations, and they brought their Baal idols with them. Each people in Asia Minor and Europe had their own idol worship names for their false gods. But once Jesus was rejected in Jerusalem, The Gospel began to be preached to them in the west, and they would become western Christian nations of history. And then from there, they would send out ambassadors to other nations, preaching The Gospel to them. The main difference from their Old Testament history and today is, most of them don't really know who they, not knowing their heritage as part of old Israel. But God knows.

And the reason why Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea in Romans 9 when speaking to Roman Gentile believers on Christ, is this. In Hosea, God called the ten tribes when they fell away as 'Lo ammi', meaning 'not My people'. Per Jeremiah 3, God gave the ten tribes a symbolic "bill of divorce" because of their falling to Baal worship. But then also per Hosea in final, God said He would have mercy upon a people that were not His people, and in the place where they were called 'Lo Ami' (meaning the ten tribes in rebellion), there He would call them 'My people', and they would call Him their GOD.

Hos 1:10
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people", there it shall be said unto them, "Ye are the sons of the living God."

KJV

Paul quoted that above in red to Roman Gentile believers in Romans 9. Thus the believing Gentile is joined... with believing Israel by his quoting that from Hosea, because Hosea was originally written to the ten tribe house of Israel. By Paul quoting that to believing Gentiles further showed that where he was and had preached The Gospel to mainly (i.e., Asia Minor and Europe), that... is where the majority of the scattered ten tribes were located, and to them The Gospel especially was sent (Matthew 15:24).

However, the Jews do not like this Bible prophecy nor how I showed it being fulfilled, with the western Christian nations representing the fulfillment of the "multitude of nations" prophecy to Ephraim, and that Manasseh his brother also would be "great". I can't help how those Jews feel, because like 1 Chronicles 5 shows, God's Birthright landed in final upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, and that is by God's ordaining, not man's. So if the Jews don't like it, they can take it up with Him. As for the 'false Jews' who really, strongly, hate this teaching from God's Word, I could care less what they think, since they are mostly foreigners of the old Canaanite nations which Israel was not able to destroy, and thus crept in among Israel, especially among the tribe of Judah, and stole that title of Jew (thus the 'tares' of the parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13).
Somehow, I don't think we really disagree. However, to be sure... Are you saying Jesus came to gather the lost sheep of Israel, who were first to the promises, and all who accept would be joined by Gentiles who exercise faith. Thus making up the Israel of God, or spiritual Israel, that would be a royal priesthood - a holy nation? Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9
 

VictoryinJesus

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I understand that there are Jews born on the outside - that is born by an earthly nation only, and there are Jews born on the inside - that is, born into God's spiritual nation, or household.

you said “I understand that there are Jews born on the outside —that is born by an earthly nation only” if I understood you correctly do you mean by the nationality from an geographical place…for example Hawaiian, Mexican, Chinese, Jewish, Caucasian? Yet “Jews born on the outside—that is born by an earthly nation” could also include—born by an earthly nation— “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.” Matthew 23:15

Consider Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved you.


John 17:25-26 O righteous Father, the world has not known You: but I have known You, and these have known that You have sent me. [26] And I have declared unto them Your name, and will declare it : that the love wherewith You have loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Point being: Who really are the Jews?
it seems to indicate it is what is on the inside. where what is on the outside can be deceptive resembling sheep clothing but inwardly it is a wolf. Consider where He said they cleaned the outside of the cup but are full of dead mens bones. 1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord sees not as man sees; for man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.
 
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Davy

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Somehow, I don't think we really disagree. However, to be sure... Are you saying Jesus came to gather the lost sheep of Israel, who were first to the promises, and all who accept would be joined by Gentiles who exercise faith. Thus making up the Israel of God, or spiritual Israel, that would be a royal priesthood - a holy nation? Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9

Kind of, except you've got that "would be joined by Gentiles" part backwards, because it is believing Gentiles that will be joined with God's Israel of the believing 'seed', just like Apostle Paul showed in Ephesians 2 and Romans 11 about the Gentiles.