Who really created the Son of God?

[HealthyShape]

Heresy is like a quality standard. It either conforms to the standard or not. In the case of religion, "orthodoxy" is the standard and "heterodoxy" is the heresy. These terms are relative to majority and minority views, not absolute right and wrong. Isn't religious freedom a wonderful God-given liberty?

You have a freedom to believe any nonsense you want, but not to use the label "Christian" in the same time, it is against the rules of this board.

But you are still happily active in the "Christians only" sections of this board, because you use that label, misleading readers about your identity.

 

[NayborBear]

Your post is terribly unreadable, but if you try to say that Jesus existed before His birth "as a plan", then it is heresy, not Christianity.

Oh! It's Christianity alright! Just not "your Churchianity!"
Which is more than likely the reason you are unable to understand!

 

[JustMe]

You have a freedom to believe any nonsense you want, but not to use the label "Christian" in the same time, it is against the rules of this board.

But you are still happily active in the "Christians only" sections of this board, because you use that label, misleading readers about your identity.

Could you please avoid threatening another poster by saying 'he is not a Christian' in this manner? It would be better to stay calm and focus on objective reasoning during these discussions. In other words, could you contribute in a way that might encourage others to consider your perspective? Doing so would help a lot and prevent this thread from being shut down, without any clear and reasonable cause. Thank you.

 

[JustMe]

Correct David Lamb.

But the OP has begun his very own religion and is trying to teach others about it.

All this talk about Jesus not being God must make God very angry.

And persons that want to start their own religion should give that religion a name/title.

It certainly is NOT the Christian religion - as the OP seems to believe.

And, yes, this post is for @JustMe too.
Who is practicing some odd religion I know nothing about.

Please calm down and don't let your emotion run wild. Stay objective if you can..thanks

 

[JustMe]

The church, me included, used a lot of critical thinking throughout centuries and millennia, plenty of debates, disputations, discussions and polemics.

We do not start today, therefore your attitude "throw everything away, ignore that the New Testament was written by Christians and try to find something totally different than the accepted truths in its text" is completely nonsensical.

The New Testament was written by the first church and for the first church, to record the events and teachings of the first church. It is not a blank check for you in the 21st century to replace the basic presuppositions of the Christian church with whatever you can fantasize about.

You can be of another religion, but please, do not abuse the New Testament for that, write your own books - if you do not want to respect neither the authors nor their disciples who picked and preserved their writings for us. It is like grabbing my posts and interpreting them in a Buddhist way. Both disrespectful and absurd.

Again, stay objective and do not let your emotions run wild. And please ask questions concerning my post without making outlandish assumptions and remarks, (like as you said not I, "throw everything away, ignore that the New Testament was written by Christians") thanks. It's clearly just a waste of everyone's time, yours included.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes, the future Son of God was created, that then begs the question, what and who is he, really.

You begin with an assumption which is wrong. This is your premise. Then you go off on a path leading on your own understanding and try to analyse scripture that can only be discerned by someone who actually possess the Holy Spirit. You must be born again, baptized by the Holy Spirit. You taught about the Holy Spirit and He foreign to you.

A god-man, God as his father, or simply the second Adam as the Bible describes him. His existence can only be explained in one way.

And it keeps coming, one day false statement after another - because you are blind, talking about God like a Pharisee would.

Luke 1:35

And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. NKJV.

There are two clauses in the second sentence of the verse above, but there are no further grammatical devices or structures. This was purposefully said and recorded in this manner. It creates a writing style known as Hebraic parallelism. These two clauses in this statement are two repeats of the same notion, utilizing different language and uncombined. Additionally, when united, the topic unambiguously and unequivocally defines their meaning. In this situation, it tells the reader clearly by the union of the two phrases that the Holy Spirit of the Most High = The might or power of the Most High.

Lol. I remember diagramming sentences in the 4th grade too ... it was cool. You don't approach scripture this way. But let me share a commentary about this verse:

Commentary by John MacArthur
[ "In verse 35, here is the divine strategy unfolded for her by Gabriel, "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.'"
The angel graciously answers her question about how with a very simple explanation. The Holy Spirit will come upon you. The Holy Spirit is very active, by the way, in Luke's narrative of Christ's birth. He is mentioned in connection with the birth of Christ, or the conception of Christ six times; three times in chapter 1 and three times in chapter 2 of this gospel. The Holy Spirit was instrumental as well, of course, in...in the life and ministry of Christ all the way along, as we shall see going through the gospel of Luke. But initially the Holy Spirit is very involved in the Messiah coming into the world and being born.
We shouldn't be surprised at this. The Holy Spirit is identified in creation. The earth is tohu and bohu, without form and void, and the Spirit of God begins to move over the face of this formless mass and begin the creative process that issues in the six days of creation described from then on through that first chapter.
The Holy Spirit, who was the original agent of creation, will again become an agent of creation, this time in the womb of this young girl. Nothing in this text, nothing in any other New Testament text, nothing anywhere in Scripture ever remotely suggests any kind of human sexual activity, only divine power acting on Mary. Joseph was shocked that this occurred when she...when he found out she was pregnant, which demonstrates his lack of contact with her in any physical way. There is no suggestion in Scripture of any sexual activity at all, only divine power creatively acting on Mary.
It is true John the Baptist, according to verse 15, was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb, but he was the product of a union between a man and a woman. Zacharias and Elizabeth came together. The miracle was that God gave them the power to conceive together when heretofore they had never been able to do so and were now either in their 60s or 70s and 80s and beyond the capability humanly. The miracle there was that God allowed them to conceive, the child was then filled with the Holy Spirit. But in the case of Jesus Christ there was no human father and the child was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
In a parallel statement to enrich our understanding, the angel then says, this is another way to say it, "The power of the Most High will overshadow you." The Holy Spirit is the same as the Most High. The Holy Spirit is the Most High. Most High, by the way, is in the Hebrew El Elyon, God Most High. It's used at least three dozen times in the Old Testament to describe God. It is a title for God. It means sovereign lordship, sovereign ruler, almighty, all powerful, very common Old Testament name for God. The Holy Spirit will come upon you, or saying the same thing another way, the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Genesis 14:19, "The Lord God Most High, the possessor of heaven and earth." That's what it means to be Most High, it means to be the sovereign over everything that exists in heaven and in earth, sovereign over it all. The sovereign almighty creator God who made and upholds the universe will create life out of nothing.
He uses the verb :episkiaz". It means "overshadow." There are three times in the New Testament where the transfiguration is described. It's described in Matthew, it's described in Mark and it's described in Luke. And at the time of the transfiguration there was an appearance of the Shekinah glory and it overshadowed them. It uses the same verb and translates it "overshadowing." It means to surround. It means to encompass, or it means in the metaphoric sense to influence.
God, the sovereign Creator of the universe, will come and surround and overshadow and influence with creative power the womb of Mary. That's what the angel said. That's the divine strategy to produce in her womb this child. It will not happen through the normal...the normal human process. It will be divine and supernatural and apart from any human sexual activity whatsoever. A creating influence of God moves into Mary's body.
And back to verse 35, for that reason, because of this divine creative miracle, "The holy offspring shall be called the Son of God." ] John MacArthur
______<<<<<<<<<<_______

Here is the Big Question no one can answer: What was God doing before the creation of the universe? Hold onto that thought fir a bit.
God is LOVE. Since God shares this love with us, we in turn manifest this love as an extention of oursleves towards another's well being. Our actions and communications with someone grows this love in us, a loving relationship. And so we have many loving relationships in life - hopefully. We feel this love, but love is not just a feeling, it requires actions expressed and extending outside oneself.
So most would agree that the essence of love is built on relationships, first from God to us, then from us to others. God said is was not good for Adam to be alone - so God made Eve. Their relationship of love resulted also in a creation, an offspring. BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY.
That said, How could God be Love if God was only one person, all alone before time? Was God just loving Himself? It makes more sense that God is Three, and as a reflection of His nature, the Triune God intended us to have a family to love and communicate with eachother. Can you imagine a Supreme Being alone before creation ... when it is not good to be alone?

 

[Wrangler]

Just because you are lazy to put three verses together?

Artificial synthesis. Anyone can invent any doctrine using this technique along with dualism.

 

[JustMe]

You begin with an assumption which is wrong. This is your premise. Then you go off on a path leading on your own understanding and try to analyse scripture that can only be discerned by someone who actually possess the Holy Spirit. You must be born again, baptized by the Holy Spirit. You taught about the Holy Spirit and He foreign to you.

And it keeps coming, one day false statement after another - because you are blind, talking about God like a Pharisee would.

And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. NKJV.

Lol. I remember diagramming sentences in the 4th grade too ... it was cool. You don't approach scripture this way. But let me share a commentary about this verse:

Commentary by John MacArthur
[ "In verse 35, here is the divine strategy unfolded for her by Gabriel, "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.'"
The angel graciously answers her question about how with a very simple explanation. The Holy Spirit will come upon you. The Holy Spirit is very active, by the way, in Luke's narrative of Christ's birth. He is mentioned in connection with the birth of Christ, or the conception of Christ six times; three times in chapter 1 and three times in chapter 2 of this gospel. The Holy Spirit was instrumental as well, of course, in...in the life and ministry of Christ all the way along, as we shall see going through the gospel of Luke. But initially the Holy Spirit is very involved in the Messiah coming into the world and being born.
We shouldn't be surprised at this. The Holy Spirit is identified in creation. The earth is tohu and bohu, without form and void, and the Spirit of God begins to move over the face of this formless mass and begin the creative process that issues in the six days of creation described from then on through that first chapter.
The Holy Spirit, who was the original agent of creation, will again become an agent of creation, this time in the womb of this young girl. Nothing in this text, nothing in any other New Testament text, nothing anywhere in Scripture ever remotely suggests any kind of human sexual activity, only divine power acting on Mary. Joseph was shocked that this occurred when she...when he found out she was pregnant, which demonstrates his lack of contact with her in any physical way. There is no suggestion in Scripture of any sexual activity at all, only divine power creatively acting on Mary.
It is true John the Baptist, according to verse 15, was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb, but he was the product of a union between a man and a woman. Zacharias and Elizabeth came together. The miracle was that God gave them the power to conceive together when heretofore they had never been able to do so and were now either in their 60s or 70s and 80s and beyond the capability humanly. The miracle there was that God allowed them to conceive, the child was then filled with the Holy Spirit. But in the case of Jesus Christ there was no human father and the child was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
In a parallel statement to enrich our understanding, the angel then says, this is another way to say it, "The power of the Most High will overshadow you." The Holy Spirit is the same as the Most High. The Holy Spirit is the Most High. Most High, by the way, is in the Hebrew El Elyon, God Most High. It's used at least three dozen times in the Old Testament to describe God. It is a title for God. It means sovereign lordship, sovereign ruler, almighty, all powerful, very common Old Testament name for God. The Holy Spirit will come upon you, or saying the same thing another way, the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Genesis 14:19, "The Lord God Most High, the possessor of heaven and earth." That's what it means to be Most High, it means to be the sovereign over everything that exists in heaven and in earth, sovereign over it all. The sovereign almighty creator God who made and upholds the universe will create life out of nothing.
He uses the verb :episkiaz". It means "overshadow." There are three times in the New Testament where the transfiguration is described. It's described in Matthew, it's described in Mark and it's described in Luke. And at the time of the transfiguration there was an appearance of the Shekinah glory and it overshadowed them. It uses the same verb and translates it "overshadowing." It means to surround. It means to encompass, or it means in the metaphoric sense to influence.
God, the sovereign Creator of the universe, will come and surround and overshadow and influence with creative power the womb of Mary. That's what the angel said. That's the divine strategy to produce in her womb this child. It will not happen through the normal...the normal human process. It will be divine and supernatural and apart from any human sexual activity whatsoever. A creating influence of God moves into Mary's body.
And back to verse 35, for that reason, because of this divine creative miracle, "The holy offspring shall be called the Son of God." ] John MacArthur
______<<<<<<<<<<_______

Here is the Big Question no one can answer: What was God doing before the creation of the universe? Hold onto that thought fir a bit.
God is LOVE. Since God shares this love with us, we in turn manifest this love as an extention of oursleves towards another's well being. Our actions and communications with someone grows this love in us, a loving relationship. And so we have many loving relationships in life - hopefully. We feel this love, but love is not just a feeling, it requires actions expressed and extending outside oneself.
So most would agree that the essence of love is built on relationships, first from God to us, then from us to others. God said is was not good for Adam to be alone - so God made Eve. Their relationship of love resulted also in a creation, an offspring. BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY.
That said, How could God be Love if God was only one person, all alone before time? Was God just loving Himself? It makes more sense that God is Three, and as a reflection of His nature, the Triune God intended us to have a family to love and communicate with eachother. Can you imagine a Supreme Being alone before creation ... when it is not good to be alone?

A step at a time: what does the 2nd Adam, and the last Adam mean to you?

 

[Wrangler]

But you are still happily active in the "Christians only" sections of this board, because you use that label, misleading readers about your identity.

Appeal to Authority. In your opinion, does being a Christian mean anything else beyond the trinity or is believing the trinity the alpha and omega and everything in between the Christian ethos?

 

[Wrangler]

A step at a time: what does the 2nd Adam, and the last Adam mean to you?

This is like a conversation I had with another poster in this thread. He refused to admit John 1:1 does not mention Yeshua, let alone the divinity of Yeshua. Yet, he was confident it was irrelevant!

Whether something is relevant is an opinion from the facts. Odd to be confident in an opinion WHILE SIDE STEPPING the facts, don't you think?

 

[GodsGrace]

Serious projection there GG. the Bible is not written the way trinitarians would have liked it to be written.

LOL On the contrary. Jeremiah 15:16, Your words were found, and I ate them, and your words became to me a joy and the delight of my heart, for I am called by your name, O LORD, God of hosts.

Jeremiah ate the words of God?

Words can be eaten?

 

[GodsGrace]

Appeal to Authority. In your opinion, does being a Christian mean anything else beyond the trinity or is believing the trinity the alpha and omega and everything in between the Christian ethos?

YES.
Believing in the Trinity is the alpha and the omega of the Christian religion.

Know why Wrangler?

Because JESUS IS GOD.
And the Trinity explains HOW.

And if you do NOT believe Jesus is God...
you are NOT a Christian.

Christians believe Jesus is God.
Period.

 

[GodsGrace]

Could you please avoid threatening another poster by saying 'he is not a Christian' in this manner? It would be better to stay calm and focus on objective reasoning during these discussions. In other words, could you contribute in a way that might encourage others to consider your perspective? Doing so would help a lot and prevent this thread from being shut down, without any clear and reasonable cause. Thank you.

Let's make this clear JustMe.

Some of us are really tired of trying to convince some that CLAIM to be Christian that Jesus is God.

We will state, unequivocally, that one is NOT A CHRISTIAN
UNLESS he believes that Jesus is God.
Which will also, by necessity, require belief in the Trinity.

 

[GodsGrace]

Appeal to Authority. In your opinion, does being a Christian mean anything else beyond the trinity or is believing the trinity the alpha and omega and everything in between the Christian ethos?

The above is for @HealthyShape ...

How is YOU misusing a label - for instance the label of Christian -
appealing to authority??

If you do not accept that JESUS IS GOD....
whatever else you accept will be moot and of no importance.

You see,,,JESUS being GOD is the number one tenet of the Christian religion.

 

[JLB]

Yes, the future Son of God was created, that then begs the question, what and who is he, really. A god-man, God as his father, or simply the second Adam as the Bible describes him. His existence can only be explained in one way. The conception of Jesus Christ is understood as a divine act initiated by the logos of God and executed through the power of his Holy Spirit. Please continue reading.​

(Luke 1:35) And the angel answered and said to her: The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow you. Therefore also the holy thing which is begotten within you shall be called the Son of God. (NEV)

There are two clauses in the second sentence of the verse above, but there are no further grammatical devices or structures. This was purposefully said and recorded in this manner. It creates a writing style known as Hebraic parallelism. These two clauses in this statement are two repeats of the same notion, utilizing different language and uncombined. Additionally, when united, the topic unambiguously and unequivocally defines their meaning. In this situation, it tells the reader clearly by the union of the two phrases that the Holy Spirit of the Most High = The might or power of the Most High.

The (Holy) Spirit embodies the divine power of the Most High, known as El Elyon, or God-Most High, who is ultimately referred to as YHWH. This Father God will overshadow Mary, enabling her to conceive and give birth to a child.

Some people hold the view that the Holy Spirit is the third person of God, known as God the Holy Spirit, while the Most High is considered the first person, referred to as God the Father. They propose that both the first and third persons were present at the conception of Mary. However, this interpretation overlooks the clear Hebraic parallelism in the sentence structure in Luke 1:35, which provides a straightforward understanding of its meaning. It’s notable that there is no mention of a second person in God during the conception and birth of Jesus, yet they claim that the son born of Mary is their second person of God. This reflects the Trinitarian belief in Jesus as both divine and human, a notion that contradicts other parts of scripture.

The power of the Holy Spirit, stemming from God-Most High (later called YHWH), brought forth the miraculous conception of Mary, resulting in the birth of a new baby who was alive and breathing for the very first time. The Holy Spirit or Spirit of God is one of the two fundamental and intrinsic attributes of the one true God, known as El Elyon-Elohim, showcasing the divine essence that underpins His being.

Having established that there is only one God and not multiple persons in the divine, it is important to introduce another key aspect: the logos, or the Word of God. This element initiated the entire process that led to the birth of Mary’s son.

The logos, representing the divine mind and intention, always exists with the Father God and is revealed or conveyed through His Spirit in this world. Regarding the topic of Jesus' birth, the logos of the one God crafted the divine plan for this event long ago. This plan was destined to be realized through His Spirit at the appointed time in the future.

To summarize, El-Elyon (Most High) devised and initiated the glorious plan that encompassed the birth of his son destined to come in the future. This sacred task was accomplished by this singular deity through his own (Holy) Spirit. He brought forth a human son untouched by the corruption of mankind.

Considering the involvement of Father God in the conception and birth of His own son, does this imply that His son is the same God as His Father? Is God engaged in the creation of little human hybrid god-sons or Els-Elyon, as His own divine offspring in a form resembling humans? Or did He simply create a typical human being (Son of Man), a human person without any inherent divine nature? He did not impart His own divine spirit or God DNA ‘essence’ into Mary's ovum. Instead, He generated pure HUMAN genes for Mary's ovum for the purpose of conception. This resulted in a human nature, untainted and sinless, forming a male human with no inclination to sin or of a sinless essence.​

There can only be one intrinsic internal form and one nature for the Son of God: either divine OR human, as ONLY a human-based perfect likeness of God that the first Adam once embodied. Yeshua was not fashioned as a hybrid being as depicted in Greek mythology, nor as some so-called ‘church fathers’ have suggested in their writings. He is not a God-man, even now! He was reborn/resurrected/existed anew as an immortal man of God and was created human, just as the angels were made after their own kind or lineage; for they are not God either.​

‘Your post fails to incorporate scripture.


Jesus is the uncreated Son of God, who is the LORD God who became flesh.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

The Son is called God and LORD (YHWH) by the Father.

You reject what the Father says about the Son.




And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

 

[GodsGrace]

Please calm down and don't let your emotion run wild. Stay objective if you can..thanks

I'm very objective.

Your constant insuslts are due to the fact that you are unable to reply to a TRUTH.

YOU are not following the Christian religion.

There is NO USE in trying to convince you that Jesus is God.

What must be done is to make you understand that you are NOT Christian.

And we Christians would like for you to stop spewing heresy on this Board.

 

[JLB]

Are there two YHWHs?

Gen 19:24
And Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven

And who is the angel of YHWH?

‘The Son is YHWH.

Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5

 

[JustMe]

YES.
Believing in the Trinity is the alpha and the omega of the Christian religion.

Know why Wrangler?

Because JESUS IS GOD.
And the Trinity explains HOW.

And if you do NOT believe Jesus is God...
you are NOT a Christian.

Christians believe Jesus is God.
Period.

Either you produce your die-hard claim that the Father and Son are the same, as a mathematical equity that scripture tends not to do, i.e. 'is' usually does not equate to '=', in a logical sequence and thought process that I believe you are not capable of doing, or you can just leave this thread quietly, in knowing you tried you best. What else is there to do? That I believe is your 'high' road that you can take.

 

[GodsGrace]

This idea is something @Matthias subscribes to and got me to buy into as well.

You believe MATTHIAS!
But he's a MAN!

YOU have been stating that you do not believe those that the THE APOSTLES taught because they are mere men and not inspired !

So is Matthias inspired?
And yet you believe HIM?

You are washed from shore to shore because youre theology is incorrect.


James 1:6
6 But he must ask in faith, doubting nothing, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.


1 Timothy 4:1
4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


@Matthias

There is a term for it. Perhaps he can remind us what the term is?

Anyway, the concept behind this word is that like your carpet example, God's plan is unfolding and certain things exist only in his mind while other things are physically or materially manifest. It's kind of like a debate I had with a friend decades ago. Does Rumpelstiltskin exist? Yes, he exists as a fictional character - a product only of the mind. His existence is not a metaphysical reality but a fictional reality. The same with God's plans and ideas including his plan of salvation before his Spirit conceived his son in a 1st century Jewish woman.

I do like the dual sense of conceive: idea and beginning of life, including the beginning of the life of a 1st century Jewish carpenter named Jesus that we've read so much about.

 

[JustMe]

‘Your post fails to incorporate scripture.


Jesus is the uncreated Son of God, who is the LORD God who became flesh.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

The Son is called God and LORD (YHWH) by the Father.

You reject what the Father says about the Son.




And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

This is at least the 4th time you have brought in scripture into play that does not help your cause, I'm afraid. Don't you get tired of knowing this is the limit of your understanding this thread, and you cannot hope to articulate anything more in any detail?

Later