Who saw it? When did they see it?
- Thread starter Matthias
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My question is, what about the others standing there when they all see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom; do they get to taste everlasting life?
I have been told that this verse is the most embarrassing verse in the bible by a PHD Theological student who has now written a book titled, The Most Embarrassing Verse in the Bible.
I read it and came to the conclusion that his book was The most embarrassing book by a Theologian on a verse in the bible.
The Theologian was a Preterist.
I have been told that this verse is the most embarrassing verse in the bible by a PHD Theological student who has now written a book titled, The Most Embarrassing Verse in the Bible.
I read it and came to the conclusion that his book was The most embarrassing book by a Theologian on a verse in the bible.
The Theologian was a Preterist.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Who saw it? When did they see it?
Answer #1 (Contextual): Peter, James, and John had a preview of the "Kingdom of God coming in power" at the Transfiguration, when they saw the King in all His glory. Jesus's declaration that "there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" doesn't really fit with the immediately preceding verses about the cost of discipleship (especially in Mark's version). However, all three synoptics present the Transfiguration as happening 6-8 days after Jesus made that declaration. The fact that all three synoptic writers considered the time lapse significant (though Luke disagrees on the length) contextually ties the saying to the Transfiguration in the minds of the authors..Answer #2 (Theological): The Son of Man was seen in His kingdom power when 4 ...he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, 5 and he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time, he appeared to me (Paul) also. (1 Corinthians 15:4b-8) They saw the King - and they became part of His Kingdom.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
Those who were alive at that time who believed and were born again of the spirit of God, saw Him, just as He promised. Truly.
The stumbling block for many, is what is meant by "seeing" His coming. Because there is seeing and then there is seeing. Christ had told them (and us) that all who are born of the spirit are as the wind--not visible as Christ was visible when He came in the flesh. Still, who is born again of the spirit of God who has not seen evidence of His presence--even as small as a mustard seed. But even so, in order to see fully in the spirit, He must increase and we must decrease.
All of which the natural man will deny and call foolishness.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
It is as He said, "Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me."
Let us consider the following passages and see that Daniel 13-14 happens immediately after the judgement of the heavenly hosts, i.e. the four Bests and the Little Horn who is the fifth beast. It is my understanding that the passages below will all occur at the end of this present Age in around 20 years’ time from now.
Daniel 7:13-14: -
13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 2:34-35, 44-45: - 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
. . . . .
44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”
When does Daniel 7:11-12 take place? Isaiah 24:21:22 gives us another insight as to what is happening in Daniel 7:11-12: -
Isaiah 24:21-22: -
21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the face of the land the kings of the face of the land.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
We must be patient and watch as God slowly reveals His plan for the redemption of all of mankind who choses to inhabit His fertile soil in obedience to His voice.
Christ in Matthew 16:28 as presented in the OP to this thread, was foretelling what John in Revelation 2011-15 would reveal when he penned the Book of Revelation: -
Rev 20:11-13: - 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Shalom
Daniel 7:13-14: -
13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 2:34-35, 44-45: - 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
. . . . .
44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”
When does Daniel 7:11-12 take place? Isaiah 24:21:22 gives us another insight as to what is happening in Daniel 7:11-12: -
Isaiah 24:21-22: -
21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the face of the land the kings of the face of the land.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
We must be patient and watch as God slowly reveals His plan for the redemption of all of mankind who choses to inhabit His fertile soil in obedience to His voice.
Christ in Matthew 16:28 as presented in the OP to this thread, was foretelling what John in Revelation 2011-15 would reveal when he penned the Book of Revelation: -
Rev 20:11-13: - 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Shalom
IMO, there are up to 10 choices one can make for the explanation of Matt 16:28.
1. The Resurrection
2. The Transfiguration
3. The Crucifixion
4. The Day of Pentecost
5. The Destruction in 70 AD.
One through five or of any combination of the five choices.
Who can choose wisely, without hesitation, without any doubt of Christ coming into or entering into the Kingdom, truly, beyond just being 'at hand?'
1. The Resurrection
2. The Transfiguration
3. The Crucifixion
4. The Day of Pentecost
5. The Destruction in 70 AD.
One through five or of any combination of the five choices.
Who can choose wisely, without hesitation, without any doubt of Christ coming into or entering into the Kingdom, truly, beyond just being 'at hand?'
Nameaboveallnames
New Member
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (Mat. 16:27-28)
This portion of scripture has perplexed many Christians for many, many years, and, quite frankly, it greatly perplexed me during the early years of my own Christian walk. The seeming problems with the passage are as follows:
1. At first glance, it appears that Jesus was saying that some of the people to whom he was then speaking approximately 2000 years ago wouldn’t physically die or “taste death” until “they saw the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
2. With this faulty understanding of the text, it seems as if this is a clear failed prophecy of Jesus in that “his kingdom” hasn’t yet “come” and in that all of the people to whom he was then speaking are long dead.
I’ve personally had Muslims and atheists throw this portion of scripture in my face in order to show an alleged failed prophecy in the Bible. There are also non-believing Jews and others who regularly cite this portion of scripture as they attempt to attack the overall veracity of the New Testament.
Many professing Christians, both now and in the past, have taken a very faulty stance while attempting to uphold the veracity of this portion of scripture. They’ve claimed that the people to whom Jesus was then speaking did in fact “see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” in that the very next thing that we read of in Matthew’s account is Jesus’ transfiguration. In other words, allegedly, when Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James and John, they actually saw him “coming in his kingdom” before they physically died or before they “tasted of death” (Mat. 16:28). The problem with this interpretation is that Jesus was in no way, shape, or form referring to his transfiguration when he uttered this prophecy.
How can I (we) be so sure?
Let’s ask ourselves the following questions:
1. Did “the Son of man come in the glory of his Father with his angels” (Mat. 16:27) when he was transfigured?
Of course, the correct answer to this question is no, he did not. Jesus was already here, so he definitely didn’t “come” at that time. Contextually, Jesus was referring to his second coming.
2. Did Jesus “reward every man according to his works” (Mat. 16:27) when he was transfigured?
Again, the correct answer to this question is no, he did not. Jesus won’t “reward every man according to his works” until the time of his second coming:
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” (Rev. 22:12)
3. Did “the Son of man come in his kingdom” (Mat. 16:28) when he was transfigured?
Yet again, the correct answer to this question is no, he did not. Once more, Jesus didn’t “come” at that time in that he was already here. He won’t “come in his kingdom” until the time of his second coming.
Seeing how the actual timeframe of which Jesus spoke was the timeframe after his second coming, who are those who will “taste of death” at that time?
I believe that the proper answer to this question is found here:
“And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Rev. 20:1-15)
When “the thousand years are finished” (Rev. 20:5), or “when the thousand years are expired” (Rev. 20:7), or after Christ’s 1000 year or Millennial Reign is completed, Satan will be loosed out of his prison, and he will lead one final rebellion against God. After God thwarts this rebellion by consuming the rebels with fire from heaven, the Great White Throne Judgment of Christ will begin. At that time, there will be the second resurrection or “the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29) that Jesus warned about. All among the resurrected dead whose names are not found written in the book of life shall be cast into the lake of fire at that point in time. This is the second death, which is the “death” that Jesus was referring to in Matthew 16:27-28, and it will be at that time, or after Christ returns, that the unbelievers, of whom Jesus actually spoke, shall truly “taste of death.”
This portion of scripture has perplexed many Christians for many, many years, and, quite frankly, it greatly perplexed me during the early years of my own Christian walk. The seeming problems with the passage are as follows:
1. At first glance, it appears that Jesus was saying that some of the people to whom he was then speaking approximately 2000 years ago wouldn’t physically die or “taste death” until “they saw the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
2. With this faulty understanding of the text, it seems as if this is a clear failed prophecy of Jesus in that “his kingdom” hasn’t yet “come” and in that all of the people to whom he was then speaking are long dead.
I’ve personally had Muslims and atheists throw this portion of scripture in my face in order to show an alleged failed prophecy in the Bible. There are also non-believing Jews and others who regularly cite this portion of scripture as they attempt to attack the overall veracity of the New Testament.
Many professing Christians, both now and in the past, have taken a very faulty stance while attempting to uphold the veracity of this portion of scripture. They’ve claimed that the people to whom Jesus was then speaking did in fact “see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” in that the very next thing that we read of in Matthew’s account is Jesus’ transfiguration. In other words, allegedly, when Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James and John, they actually saw him “coming in his kingdom” before they physically died or before they “tasted of death” (Mat. 16:28). The problem with this interpretation is that Jesus was in no way, shape, or form referring to his transfiguration when he uttered this prophecy.
How can I (we) be so sure?
Let’s ask ourselves the following questions:
1. Did “the Son of man come in the glory of his Father with his angels” (Mat. 16:27) when he was transfigured?
Of course, the correct answer to this question is no, he did not. Jesus was already here, so he definitely didn’t “come” at that time. Contextually, Jesus was referring to his second coming.
2. Did Jesus “reward every man according to his works” (Mat. 16:27) when he was transfigured?
Again, the correct answer to this question is no, he did not. Jesus won’t “reward every man according to his works” until the time of his second coming:
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” (Rev. 22:12)
3. Did “the Son of man come in his kingdom” (Mat. 16:28) when he was transfigured?
Yet again, the correct answer to this question is no, he did not. Once more, Jesus didn’t “come” at that time in that he was already here. He won’t “come in his kingdom” until the time of his second coming.
Seeing how the actual timeframe of which Jesus spoke was the timeframe after his second coming, who are those who will “taste of death” at that time?
I believe that the proper answer to this question is found here:
“And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Rev. 20:1-15)
When “the thousand years are finished” (Rev. 20:5), or “when the thousand years are expired” (Rev. 20:7), or after Christ’s 1000 year or Millennial Reign is completed, Satan will be loosed out of his prison, and he will lead one final rebellion against God. After God thwarts this rebellion by consuming the rebels with fire from heaven, the Great White Throne Judgment of Christ will begin. At that time, there will be the second resurrection or “the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29) that Jesus warned about. All among the resurrected dead whose names are not found written in the book of life shall be cast into the lake of fire at that point in time. This is the second death, which is the “death” that Jesus was referring to in Matthew 16:27-28, and it will be at that time, or after Christ returns, that the unbelievers, of whom Jesus actually spoke, shall truly “taste of death.”
Nameaboveallnames
New Member
The reason why so many people stumble over the verse in question is because they do not understand what the Bible means when it talks about "tasting death."
Jhn 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Jhn 8:52
Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Jesus said that those who keep his sayings "shall never see death" or "shall never taste of death." He could not have been talking about physical death because his followers have been physically dying for thousands of years.
Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Jesus has "tasted death for every man" in that he bore the punishment for our sins that will lead to "the second death" (Rev. 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8) unless they are atoned for. Unfortunately, many will reject Christ's atoning sacrifice on their behalves, and they will ultimately "taste of" this "second death". At the same time,, no Christian will ever "taste death" in this manner because Jesus already bore the punishment for our sins that leads to it.
Nameaboveallnames
New Member
@Exegesis said,
WHICH DEATH is this referring to?
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is THE SECOND DEATH
@Matthias had responded
The FIRST death.
Truly asks,
How can it be that Revelation 21:8 is somehow speaking of the FIRST death when the verse itself states its speaking of the SECOND DEATH?
How do you get FIRST from SECOND?
I can understand @Nameaboveallnames NOPE.
To which you answer again Matthew 17:1ff
Which begs that question, how does Matthew 17:1 in post #14 somehow counter the fact that Revelation 21:8 is speaking of the SECOND DEATH?
What am I missing?
WHICH DEATH is this referring to?
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is THE SECOND DEATH
@Matthias had responded
The FIRST death.
Truly asks,
How can it be that Revelation 21:8 is somehow speaking of the FIRST death when the verse itself states its speaking of the SECOND DEATH?
How do you get FIRST from SECOND?
I can understand @Nameaboveallnames NOPE.
To which you answer again Matthew 17:1ff
Which begs that question, how does Matthew 17:1 in post #14 somehow counter the fact that Revelation 21:8 is speaking of the SECOND DEATH?
What am I missing?
Revelation 21:8 is talking about the second death.
I don’t. Jesus is speaking about the first death in Matthew 16:28.
Welcome to the forum.
I have always wondered about this also, you have definately given me something to consider. Let me ask you something concerning tasting verses seeing death? Is there a difference betcause there seems to be, I have some things written out a few ways, but here is a brief example, these three verses here...
Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
However, then there is this one
Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
What are your thoughts on how these might apply
The way you answered post #10 with the reference to Rev 21:8 was to contradict the verse presented is why I even asked
Ofcourse he is there, the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) or the vision of all speaks of his decease to be accomplished in Jerusalem.
P.S I am Verily Matthias, thanks for the welcome but you know me
ScottA
Well-Known Member
As for the timing, Jesus said before Pilate, "My kingdom is..." (John 18:36). Not, will be, but "is."
I was trying in my response to get the conversation back on the topic presented in the OP.
I do remember you. It’s good to see you back and posting again.
