Are you a part of the majority of respondents on this topic that refused to watch even one of the video testimonies?
Apparently so, based on your ignorant comments. These Bible SCHOLARS are not stupid by any stretch.
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Why are Bible scholars leaving Christianity?
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Apparently so, based on your ignorant comments. These Bible SCHOLARS are not stupid by any stretch.
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Disappointment.
It is VERY disheartening to discover that what your church has been teaching you for years is wrong in major ways. Particularly if that church has been a major focus of your life.
It's also discouraging when you find that your church, other churches, THE church perhaps... they're not interested in any truth they don't already know. They prefer to close their eyes and stay in the comfort of traditions.
I didn't watch the videos. I'm speaking from experience. Having said that, I haven't left Christianity.
No, there are plenty of people who believe in God without being Christian - Orthodox Jews, Deists and Muslims for example.
That said, there is no salvation outside of Christ. I imagine being such a person is a bit like watching the last escape pod eject.
Not at all. Depending on the church in question, it may be impossible to believe both.
This link was at the bottom of the OP. May have been overlooked by most readers.
www.christianityboard.com
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Leaving Room for Faith - why we don't know EVERYTHING
At one time I was bothered by the fact that we don't really have ALL the answers. There was always a loose end somewhere. I chased the apologetics in every direction, but always came up short somewhere. And frankly, I don't remember the specifics, only the moment of my release from the tyranny...
www.christianityboard.com
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Thank you.
Finally someone who understands what this topic is about.
It only took 33 pages/643 posts to get there. - LOL
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That's interesting.
Many who know what you and I know have decided to leave. But some, like us have decided to stay.
So, here's a VERY on-topic question.
What makes some leave and some stay?
You pretty well answered the reasons for leaving.
What about reasons for staying?
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Anytime consider that they simply didn't want to walk the way the holy Spirit was leading them? Wanting to cleave to cherished sin? Letting self overcome love? Hardening their hearts in the face of conviction, preferring the world than believing in the promises of God? Lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God? Perhaps they did believe in God, maybe even had a relationship with Him, but the love of the world and the things of the world turned them away from truth so that they began to believe a lie. All of the above? That it happened to them let none of us grow complacent. It is a narrow road and there are ditches either side. Let us be circumspect, taking care of the precious gift we have been given, and taking nothing for granted.
Since no one else watched all the videos, I will say you are correct.
By all appearances, these committed folks should not have left.
They were pastors and missionaries and ministers of all sorts.
Their stories are very sobering.
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Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Are we talking about leaving God or leaving the church?
Even if the church was wrong about absolutely everything... (it isn't nearly that bad, but for the sake of argument)
God would still be God. I would still believe in a God, a first cause, an omniscience, a collective conscience of mankind. If Christianity didn't exist, or even if all religions didn't exist... philosophy and science would still lead me back to God. Perhaps I wouldn't conceive of Him as a bronze-age weather deity (ok I don't anyway), and perhaps I would be ignorant of His commandments for creating a just society, but I would still believe in God. How exactly does one leave an omnipresent God? If I turn my back, He is still in front of me.
As for the church... they are my culture and my people. If they are frequently wrong, or obstinate, or spiteful... that doesn't stop them from being my culture and my people. If I exile myself, I would be cultureless and people-less, and unable to help them. Where exactly is the benefit of leaving?
I could find a new culture and a new people I suppose, but the new one would still be full of people who are frequently wrong, and obstinate, and spiteful. These things aren't unique to Christianity, they belong to all Humanity.
-Jarrod
Yes, the church.
But some become atheist as well. A whole spectrum of outcomes are possible.
I like the quote from the movie Tracks, a walk across Australia. (from memory)
"On a journey, it's not what you take with you, it's what you leave behind."
Well said.
It's hard to account for all this without a transcendent being at the center of it.
There is more than meets the eye. (initially)
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Nonanswer is unbelief.
I don't care what you think of anything. If we can't repeat the Bible with faith, then it's due to unbelief.
And all the king's horses and men and explanation make unbelieving humpty dumpty a believer.
JW's obviously aren't the only ones that want to believe in heaven or oblivion, by making the soul the body, and the body the soul, and are one and the same and never apart.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
It's easy to be confused because Paul uses the words differently from everyone else.
On the whole, when most Biblical authors use the word "soul," they just mean "person."
You are a soul, you have a body and a spirit.
How did you arrive at the position of unconscious nonexistence in the afterlife?
Do they call it the afterlife for nothing? - LOL
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I didn't say "nonexistence". The important point is that death is an unconscious state, like a deep sleep, so that we have no thoughts or feelings. I explained that in my previous posts. Jesus likened death to a sleep, and dead people are referred to as sleeping throughout the Bible, e.g.:
Deuteronomy 31:16 (WEB):
(16) Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers. ...
2 Samuel 7:12 (WEB):(12) When your days are fulfilled, and you sleep with your fathers, I will ...
Psalms 13:3 (WEB):(3) Behold, and answer me, Yahweh, my God. Give light to my eyes, lest I sleep in death;
Daniel 12:2 (WEB):(2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 11:11,13 (WEB):(11) He said these things, and after that, he said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”
(13) Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he spoke of taking rest in sleep.
1 Corinthians 15:20 (WEB):(20) But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:51 (WEB):(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
Ephesians 5:14 (WEB):(14) Therefore he says, “Awake, you who sleep, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
1 Thessalonians 4:15 (WEB):(15) For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
Only the second death is nonexistence - Matthew 10:28 (WEB):
(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
I had written:
"If you can't sufficiently prove from Scripture what you believe, and why you think I'm wrong, then it's pointless you participating in this discussion. Just saying something but not giving any Scriptural support for your claims is valueless."
and you reply with that nonsense! Our conversation is at an end.
Check this out.
29 Bible results for “realm of the dead” from the New International Version.
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm of the dead
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Amen!
(Of course, as usual, you leave out the obvious argument by which I conclude your unbelief in some parts of the Bible)
Taking each of those verses in turn, but using a better translation than the NIV (which I don't like because it is not a very accurate translation):
Numbers 16:32-33 (WEB):
(32) The earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households, all of Korah’s men, and all their goods.
(33) So they, and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol. The earth closed on them, and they perished from among the assembly.
In this case the NIV translating sheol as "realm of the dead" instead of the grave, pit, or even hell, is a misleading translation. The context is simply that God caused the ground to open up and swallow them alive, and then close over them, so that they were buried alive. They perished (died); they didn't go to live in some other realm. Anyone in the "realm of the dead" is dead - they are not alive and conscious.
Deuteronomy 32:22 (WEB):
(22) For a fire is kindled in my anger, that burns to the lowest Sheol,devours the earth with its increase, and sets the foundations of the mountains on fire.
God is using figures of speech to describe his anger. A fire 'in God's anger' is not a description of where dead people reside. He says the fire in His anger is so great that figuratively it would burn down into the earth, past the graves of people (Sheol/hell/grave) and down to the earth beneath mountains. God uses similar speech in other places, e.g. Jeremiah 17:4 (WEB):
(4) You, even of yourself, will discontinue from your heritage that I gave you. I will cause you to serve your enemies in the land which you don’t know, for you have kindled a fire in my anger which will burn forever.”
Job 26:6 (WEB):
(6) Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.
KJV:(6) Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
That is simply saying that nothing is hidden from God ("has no covering"), not even the grave (hell) where dead bodies are. Abaddon means destruction, and it is used as a synonym for the grave (Sheol) - a place where a body of flesh is destroyed ("For you are dust, and to dust you shall return”, Genesis 3:19).
Psalms 9:17 (WEB):
(17) The wicked shall be turned back to Sheol, even all the nations that forget God.
This doesn't say anything about the state of dead people, it's just saying that wicked people and those that forget God will end up in the grave (Sheol), i.e. dead. It's similar to Psalms 90:3 (WEB):
(3) You turn man to destruction, saying, “Return, you children of men.”
"Return" means 'return to the earth', where dead bodies are destroyed, as in Psalms 146:4 (WEB):
(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.
Psalms 16:10 (WEB):
(10) For you will not leave my soul in Sheol, neither will you allow your holy one to see corruption.
Again it says nothing about the state of the dead, which is an unconscious (thoughtless) state. It is prophetic of Jesus, saying that God would not leave Jesus dead (in the grave/tomb), nor would he allow Jesus' human body to decay in the earth.
Psalms 30:3 (WEB):
(3) Yahweh, you have brought up my soul from Sheol. You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
KJV:(3) O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Fairly self-explanatory - David is saying that God has kept him from dying, so that he had not yet gone into the grave (Sheol) or pit (another word with the same meaning as Sheol).
Psalms 31:17 (WEB):
(17) Let me not be disappointed, Yahweh, for I have called on you. Let the wicked be disappointed. Let them be silent in Sheol.
Again it simply states that when you are dead (in the grave/Sheol) then you are in an unconscious, silent state.
Psalms 49:15 (WEB):
(15) But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me. Selah.
Again it says nothing about the state of people in Sheol (grave); it just says that God will redeem them.
Psalms 55:15 (WEB):
(15) Let death come suddenly on them. Let them go down alive into Sheol. For wickedness is among them, in their dwelling.
KJV:(15) Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Again it says nothing about the state of people in Sheol (grave).
Psalms 86:13 (WEB):
(13) For your loving kindness is great toward me. You have delivered my soul from the lowest Sheol.
Again it says nothing about the state of people in Sheol (grave).
Proverbs 9:18 (WEB):
(18) But he doesn’t know that the departed spirits are there, that her guests are in the depths of Sheol.
In context it is saying that those that the foolish woman invites into her house don't know that to enter her house is to quit the land of the living. It is contrasting the way of folly with the way of wisdom.
Proverbs 15:24 (WEB):
(24) The path of life leads upward for the wise, to keep him from going downward to Sheol.
Again it says nothing about the state of people in Sheol (grave).
Ecclesiastes 9:10 (WEB):
(10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going.
This confirms what I wrote - that there is no conscious thought when you are dead.
Isaiah 14:9,15 (WEB):
(9) Sheol from beneath has moved for you to meet you at your coming. It stirs up the departed spirits for you, even all the rulers of the earth. It has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(15) Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the pit.
This passage is a proverb/parable using poetic speech about the fate king of Babylon. The grave/hell doesn't actually move, it cannot wake up or stir up departed spirits, and dead kings are not sitting on thrones in the grave and thay cannot speak. Cypress trees also don't speak (verse 8). It goes on to say:
(15) Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the pit.
(19) But you are cast away from your tomb like an abominable branch, clothed with the slain, who are thrust through with the sword, who go down to the stones of the pit; like a dead body trodden under foot.
(20) You will not join them in burial, because you have destroyed your land. You have killed your people. The offspring of evildoers will not be named forever.
Etc. I've run out of time, but I think I've made my point that none of the listed verses contradict what I wrote, that the dead are in an unconscious (dormant or sleeping) state.
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