Why Argue Against Doing the Law?

[quietthinker]

I know - I was asking you and Backlit.

welllll, I did check into the memory banks and discovered this version...

Remember the Sabbath day because it's not in the law but now it is. I've written in letters which I know you have trouble with....late delivery by the postal system and all that.....should I have written it in stone?.....perhaps lapis lazuli?

Ahhhh, its a tough call because those stoney hearts of those ancient people needed something to relate to.....they'd been whipped around for near half a millennium by the man with the funny hat; they musta forgotten fleshy language.....although they did seem to be in a hurry to scoff down the quail.

In any case, did you know that I did something on that day which I didn't do on the others? yup, hallowed it.....and just to be clear, that does not mean hollowed it, it means it is to be admired just like my name.....you know, like that diamond ring you turn and watch sparkle from all angles......yup, set it apart...in religious lingo, 'sanctified'....just like that ring.......keep it in mind....wear it....and just in case you do forget I'll add that word 'remember' .....don't stick it in a dark drawer.

 

[Cristo Rei]

Why argue against doing the law?

Because the government is not my moral agent. God is. It's Gods law that I abide by, not the immoral laws made by government for political, personal and corporate interests.

Adultery, abortion, gayness, transgenderism, war, mandatory toxic needles, discrimination against the unvaxed, mob style system... All these laws and more are the manifestation of Satan

We live in an immoral society with many immoral laws that go against Gods Word. I'd rather speak up against such laws that simply stay quite while the west collapses.

 

[Truman]

Why Argue Against Doing the Law?
cuz its convenient when I wanna do my own thing!

Lol

 

[Truman]

God made the sabbath long before He made the law. It's supposed to be a good thing. It's what I choose to do, though I wouldn't, for a second, try to tell you what to do.

Happy Rest Day, happy Rest Day, to you.
It's the best day, it's a blessed day, all the way through.
It's a feast day, made by Yahweh, for me and you...it's true.
Happy Rest Day, happy Rest Day, to you! -tc

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The fact that in Exodus 16 God said....3 months prior to Sinai...

Still, God only gave it to the Israelites. Right? Who before?

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Still, God only gave it to the Israelites. Right? Who before?

Exo. 12:38 mentions Egyptians leaving with the Israelites and God explicitly mentioned the foreigners in the community as being equally responsible for keeping the Sabbath in Exo. 20:10.

All of God's servants prior to that generation had been observing the Sabbath, but God had to reveal it to the Israelites and the Egyptians among them because they were all accustomed to practicing the traditions of the Babylonian Mysteries. Nothing illustrates this like the golden calf incident in Exo. 32.

People consistently overlook the fact that the events of Gen. 10-11 serves as the background for Exo. 16. Construction on the tower in Babel came to a screeching halt, but the religion didn't die with that project.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: Why argue against the law?
Precious friend, no need, as God Argues "The Simplicity Of Christ!":

Under The Law Of The Spirit, in "faith which worketh by love," we:

"Fulfill ALL Of His Law, In "ONE Word: LOVE thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)

Simple enough [NO (made for the UNrighteous) long law list needed] for me.
Amen?

GRACE And Peace...

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Exo. 12:38 mentions Egyptians leaving with the Israelites and God explicitly mentioned the foreigners in the community as being equally responsible for keeping the Sabbath in Exo. 20:10.

All of God's servants prior to that generation had been observing the Sabbath, but God had to reveal it to the Israelites and the Egyptians among them because they were all accustomed to practicing the traditions of the Babylonian Mysteries. Nothing illustrates this like the golden calf incident in Exo. 32.

People consistently overlook the fact that the events of Gen. 10-11 serves as the background for Exo. 16. Construction on the tower in Babel came to a screeching halt, but the religion didn't die with that project.

That doesn't change anything. It was still to the Jews first, and they would be responsible for anyone in their company, no matter what race. The point is no one before the Jews were given the Sabbath day to keep.

 

[FHII]

We as Christians (whether gentiles or Hebrews) are not under the Law. We have been relieved of that, and for a very good reason: because no one can keep it. Jesus, Paul and James all had the same point in that if you break one point of the law, you are guilty of breaking the whole law. Jesus even further made it difficult when he related if you so much lust in your heart, you are guilty whether you did it physically or not.

So not being under the law is liberty. But there are responsibilities: we are to love the Lord and put him first, we are to learn of him and we are to love our neighbors. Their are other things, but the "royal law" or the "2 great commandments" are a good summarizing.

But no... We don't have to keep the Law of Moses/God (yes, they are the same thing). And again, its a good thing. It is too distracting from the new covenant which comes down to two simple things (and THOSE two are a full time duty).

Following the Law didn't work. Ever. But does that mean we shouldn't? Well, these laws are not grievous and following them will help your physical man stay out of trouble. All things are lawful... Sure. But not all things edify or are a good idea.

Following the Law (or parts of it) are not a sin against Grace. BUT... When you point to your obedience to the Law as proof of your righteousness, then there is a problem. The second you point to yourself and your performance of the law, you have 100% ruined grace. Furthermore, beating up on a fellow saint because he or she breaks your pet peeve sin makes you a hypocrite and under the whole law.

But... No. Following the law is a good idea. Just don't point to you batting average as an indicator or your righteousness.

 

[Bob Estey]

Christians argue about the law of God in a way in which the Jews never did.

Jews may have obeyed or transgressed the law, and debated points of law, but they never argued about whether the law ought to be kept and obeyed.

But Christians actually argue about whether to keep the law of God or not, and some even go so far as to argue against keeping the law, as though doing the law were a sin against grace: they demonize the law and doing the law of Christ as becoming enemies of grace and the cross of Christ.

Why is that?

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Rom 1)

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1)

The law of God is the word of God written plainly in Scripture: no Christian argues against being doers of the word, so why argue against being doers of the law?

Because they misread how the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, and falsely conclude keeping the letter of the law is death.

The foolish argument is about whether to be doers of the law and word, and the right argument is about how the letter of the law kills without the Spirit:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (2 Cor 6)

How can the letter of the law kill, when it is the same life giving Spirit who gives us the letter of the law in Scripture?

Scripture here is speaking of the letter as opposed to the Spirit, which is the letter only without the Spirit.

Keeping the letter of the law only, without the Spirit, is death and not life in Christ Jesus.

Even as faith only is dead without works, so the letter only is dead without the Spirit.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. (Rom 9)

The letter in Scripture kills, when it is obeyed as it were by law on paper only, and not by law of God written in the heart with the Spirit.

To obey the letter only without the heart is still death of the soul, for only by obeying the letter from the heart by grace through faith is there righteousness, life, and peace with God.

And since the letter of the law of Christ written in Scripture is the law written in our hearts and minds, then no man can be disobeying the letter on paper, and yet be doing the law from the heart.

Unlike the unbelieving Jews that were dead by letter only, Christians are to keep the letter of the law and do it well by grace through faith.

The Jews erred by seeking the righteousness of the law only, without faith, and Christians err by seeking righteousness by faith only, without the law.

Christians ought to do the righteousness of God, without leaving the letter of His law undone:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And God forbid Christians should seek to abolish the law of Christ altogether as written, which even the unbelieving Jews never dared to do.

The law of God is not without the Spirit, and the Spirit of God is not without His law:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Making oneself do the letter of the law only kills the spirit, and making oneself spiritual without the letter of the law only kills righteousness.

A lot of people don't understand the law is for our benefit. It keeps us out of trouble.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

That doesn't change anything. It was still to the Jews first, and they would be responsible for anyone in their company, no matter what race. The point is no one before the Jews were given the Sabbath day to keep.

"It still doesn't change anything".

As a matter of fact, it changes everything:

1. Your false argument about how the Israelites were the only people who were held responsible for keeping God's commandments was debunked with scriptural proof.

2. The Jews didn't exist as a people until about 500 years later when the nation divided into 2 separate kingdoms with their own rulers.

3. Mar. 2 shows Jesus saying the Sabbath was a a divine mandate ever since it was created in Gen. 2:1-3, so there is a direct statement from the Son of God Himself that all of God's followers in the OT observed the Sabbath. Gen. 26:5 even shows God saying Abraham kept all of His commandments, and he wasn't a Jew.

You have been proven wrong every which way, and you would be wise to accept the truth instead of tripling down on your foolishness.

 

[BarneyFife]

I brought this up with QT, because that is the part of the law in the OP that he is most interested in, even though he is not SDA.

Dear, dear Sister Linda,

The reason Sabbatarian Christians appear to stress the importance of the 4th commandment is that virtually no one objects to the relevance of the other 9 when addressed individually. The number of Christians who claim that Jesus Himself is our spiritual Sabbath rest is very small indeed (although many will feign compliance with this in an engagement with 7th day Sabbath defenders) compared to the vast majority who either object to the 4th commandment by reason of its alleged relegation to Jewish ceremonialism in the New Covenant or object to the written law of God entirely for one of a myriad of reasons, which seems to grow ever more numerous as time goes by.

The fact is that those who object to a literal 24-hour keeping of the 4th commandment can reach no consensus on why they object. Not so much with its adherents.

 

[BarneyFife]

Sis,

But why?

Honestly, Why ask "why" with God?

Did God need to rest physically?

Only as an example to mankind, as your question seems to support/suggest (He must have done it for some reason).

And no one kept the Sabbath until it was given to the Israelites, 2,500 years after creation, and made it law (by the letter) until the Creator came to earth.

This is, at best, an argument from silence, since it is clear that other commandments were known but not enumerated in the time prior to the Exodus.

 

[GEN2REV]

as long as you obey your conscience you are pleasing God

Do you really believe this is true for everybody?

Most people, including the majority of Christians, sin every single day, habitually, and have no ill conscience about it whatsoever.

That's the whole point of the 10 Commandments.

It's not do what feels right and God will be pleased.

It's, quite sensibly, do what God has Commanded ... and you will never have need of worry.

ETA: Do little children know inherently what is best for them? No. They must trust their parents to guide them wisely. The Bible says that those who are stubborn and don't obey their parents are worthy of death. I think there's a double meaning there.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

"It still doesn't change anything".

As a matter of fact, it changes everything:

1. Your false argument about how the Israelites were the only people who were held responsible for keeping God's commandments was debunked with scriptural proof.

2. The Jews didn't exist as a people until about 500 years later when the nation divided into 2 separate kingdoms with their own rulers.

3. Mar. 2 shows Jesus saying the Sabbath was a a divine mandate ever since it was created in Gen. 2:1-3, so there is a direct statement from the Son of God Himself that all of God's followers in the OT observed the Sabbath. Gen. 26:5 even shows God saying Abraham kept all of His commandments, and he wasn't a Jew.

You have been proven wrong every which way, and you would be wise to accept the truth instead of tripling down on your foolishness.

The Ten Commandments were given to all 12 tribes. Only two tribes were left during the time of Jesus. The rest were the Samaritans.

Mark 2 is showing that the Lord of something is not in submission to it. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. HE is our Rest. When we abide in Jesus and He in us, we have entered God's rest of Heb. 4. All the holy convocations of Leviticus 23 point to Jesus. Why can't you honor Him, and enjoy the Spirit of the Law, instead of staying in the substitute - the letter of the law.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Dear, dear Sister Linda,

The reason Sabbatarian Christians appear to stress the importance of the 4th commandment is that virtually no one objects to the relevance of the other 9 when addressed individually. The number of Christians who claim that Jesus Himself is our spiritual Sabbath rest is very small indeed (although many will feign compliance with this in an engagement with 7th day Sabbath defenders) compared to the vast majority who either object to the 4th commandment by reason of its alleged relegation to Jewish ceremonialism in the New Covenant or object to the written law of God entirely for one of a myriad of reasons, which seems to grow ever more numerous as time goes by.

The fact is that those who object to a literal 24-hour keeping of the 4th commandment can reach no consensus on why they object. Not so much with its adherents.

You are absolutely right. And many nonAdventists actually believe that Sunday is the Sabbath and fulfills the commandment now.

Those who believe as I do are very rare indeed. I don't know any denomination that believes as I do on most things. LOL In fact, on another site I get banned every two weeks for a week. I can't get back on there right no until after midnight on Friday night. But there are no reprisals against all the doctrines of demons on it.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Only as an example to mankind, as your question seems to support/suggest (He must have done it for some reason).

Boy, nobody can get anything past you! You're smart, buddy! Yes, there was a very good reason and it pointed toward the Creator, and now we know Who. Knowing Who is graduation, but they were given the day as a kindergarten substitute to hallow until the true rest of God came to earth.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Do you really believe this is true for everybody?

No! It wouldn't matter to a non-Christian. Many of them don't even have a conscience to object.

But, yes to a Spirit-filled Christian, whether or not they have the whole truth yet or not. In the New Covenant it all boils down to the intent of the heart. For us, if you willfully sin a sin of lawlessness (major sin like murder or adultery) knowing that it is a sin and you go against your conscience and commit it, that is a sin unto death. It is rebellion against God, and that is as the sin of witchcraft.

But Philippians 3:16 shows us that even if you don't understand all righteousness but obey the light you have, that is enough to be confident in God. Any sins you commit unknowingly are unintentional and are sins unto death.

And there is a category of sin called trespasses - basically immature fruit of the Spirit. Jesus tells us that for those to be forgiven we must forgive other brethren their trespasses against us. Then the Father will forgive us. God wants Christians to be one in Him, and to always be reconciled one to another in love. Matthew 6:14-15; 1 John 1:7.

That's the whole point of the 10 Commandments.

It's not do what feels right and God will be pleased.

It's, quite sensibly, do what God has Commanded ... and you will never have need of worry.

The Ten Commandments that we had to memorize was for those who sinned to curb their actions, even though it did not touch their inner hearts. That is why we are not under the Law - The Ten Commandments. It was "weak through the flesh." Romans 8:3.

Unfortunately, not many Christians can relate to the laws being written on their hearts/conscience to empower them to not sin.

 

[Happy Trails]

Christians argue about the law of God in a way in which the Jews never did.

Jews may have obeyed or transgressed the law, and debated points of law, but they never argued about whether the law ought to be kept and obeyed.

But Christians actually argue about whether to keep the law of God or not, and some even go so far as to argue against keeping the law, as though doing the law were a sin against grace: they demonize the law and doing the law of Christ as becoming enemies of grace and the cross of Christ.

Why is that?

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Rom 1)

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1)

The law of God is the word of God written plainly in Scripture: no Christian argues against being doers of the word, so why argue against being doers of the law?

Because they misread how the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, and falsely conclude keeping the letter of the law is death.

The foolish argument is about whether to be doers of the law and word, and the right argument is about how the letter of the law kills without the Spirit:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (2 Cor 6)

How can the letter of the law kill, when it is the same life giving Spirit who gives us the letter of the law in Scripture?

Scripture here is speaking of the letter as opposed to the Spirit, which is the letter only without the Spirit.

Keeping the letter of the law only, without the Spirit, is death and not life in Christ Jesus.

Even as faith only is dead without works, so the letter only is dead without the Spirit.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. (Rom 9)

The letter in Scripture kills, when it is obeyed as it were by law on paper only, and not by law of God written in the heart with the Spirit.

To obey the letter only without the heart is still death of the soul, for only by obeying the letter from the heart by grace through faith is there righteousness, life, and peace with God.

And since the letter of the law of Christ written in Scripture is the law written in our hearts and minds, then no man can be disobeying the letter on paper, and yet be doing the law from the heart.

Unlike the unbelieving Jews that were dead by letter only, Christians are to keep the letter of the law and do it well by grace through faith.

The Jews erred by seeking the righteousness of the law only, without faith, and Christians err by seeking righteousness by faith only, without the law.

Christians ought to do the righteousness of God, without leaving the letter of His law undone:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And God forbid Christians should seek to abolish the law of Christ altogether as written, which even the unbelieving Jews never dared to do.

The law of God is not without the Spirit, and the Spirit of God is not without His law:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Making oneself do the letter of the law only kills the spirit, and making oneself spiritual without the letter of the law only kills righteousness.

What is truth?

Psalm 119:142
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

When people decide for themselves what truth is, they can twist ideas from their original intention.

Galatians 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

 

[Brakelite]

Still, God only gave it to the Israelites. Right? Who before?

So only Israelites committed murder and adultery?