Why Argue Against Doing the Law?

[robert derrick]

Christians argue about the law of God in a way in which the Jews never did.

Jews may have obeyed or transgressed the law, and debated points of law, but they never argued about whether the law ought to be kept and obeyed.

But Christians actually argue about whether to keep the law of God or not, and some even go so far as to argue against keeping the law, as though doing the law were a sin against grace: they demonize the law and doing the law of Christ as becoming enemies of grace and the cross of Christ.

Why is that?

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Rom 1)

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. (James 1)

The law of God is the word of God written plainly in Scripture: no Christian argues against being doers of the word, so why argue against being doers of the law?

Because they misread how the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life, and falsely conclude keeping the letter of the law is death.

The foolish argument is about whether to be doers of the law and word, and the right argument is about how the letter of the law kills without the Spirit:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (2 Cor 6)

How can the letter of the law kill, when it is the same life giving Spirit who gives us the letter of the law in Scripture?

Scripture here is speaking of the letter as opposed to the Spirit, which is the letter only without the Spirit.

Keeping the letter of the law only, without the Spirit, is death and not life in Christ Jesus.

Even as faith only is dead without works, so the letter only is dead without the Spirit.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. (Rom 9)

The letter in Scripture kills, when it is obeyed as it were by law on paper only, and not by law of God written in the heart with the Spirit.

To obey the letter only without the heart is still death of the soul, for only by obeying the letter from the heart by grace through faith is there righteousness, life, and peace with God.

And since the letter of the law of Christ written in Scripture is the law written in our hearts and minds, then no man can be disobeying the letter on paper, and yet be doing the law from the heart.

Unlike the unbelieving Jews that were dead by letter only, Christians are to keep the letter of the law and do it well by grace through faith.

The Jews erred by seeking the righteousness of the law only, without faith, and Christians err by seeking righteousness by faith only, without the law.

Christians ought to do the righteousness of God, without leaving the letter of His law undone:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And God forbid Christians should seek to abolish the law of Christ altogether as written, which even the unbelieving Jews never dared to do.

The law of God is not without the Spirit, and the Spirit of God is not without His law:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Making oneself do the letter of the law only kills the spirit, and making oneself spiritual without the letter of the law only kills righteousness.

 

[robert derrick]

In the NT we no longer keep the letter of the law, because that is the OT with Jesus.

How can there be a difference between the law and the letter of the law, when the law is written in letter by the Spirit?

The law is written in letter, and so without the letter, there is no law.

The letter of the law is against fornication. How can we avoid keeping the letter of the law, while not fornicating according to the law?

Only fornicators don't keep the letter of the law against fornication.

The only way not to keep the letter of the law is to transgress the law.

So, in order to avoid keeping the letter of the law, as it were to not fall from grace, Christians are to be fornicators?

God forbid, of course.

Not only are all letters of the law of God good, but the letters of all Scripture are good, including every single jot and tittle of the law: the letter of the law are the letters of Scripture.

The Scripture is not against the letter of the law, but only written against seeking to keep the letter of the law only, without faith from the heart.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Outwardly keeping the letter of the law only kills, so long as we are not keeping the law within our hearts.

Keeping the letter of the law in the New Testament, is not the Old Testament of blood of bulls and goats, with Jesus.

The NT is the law of God kept inwardly and outwardly through the Spirit with the blood of Jesus, not in outward letter only, but in Spirit and in truth.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

In the NT we no longer keep the letter of the law, because that is the OT with Jesus.

How can there be a difference between the law and the letter of the law, when the law is written in letter by the Spirit?

The law is written in letter, and so without the letter, there is no law.

The letter of the law is against fornication. How can we avoid keeping the letter of the law, while not fornicating according to the law?

Only fornicators don't keep the letter of the law against fornication.

The only way not to keep the letter of the law is to transgress the law.

So, in order to avoid keeping the letter of the law, as it were to not fall from grace, Christians are to be fornicators?

God forbid, of course.

Not only are all letters of the law of God good, but the letters of all Scripture are good, including every single jot and tittle of the law: the letter of the law are the letters of Scripture.

The Scripture is not against the letter of the law, but only written against seeking to keep the letter of the law only, without faith from the heart.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Outwardly keeping the letter of the law only kills, so long as we are not keeping the law within our hearts.

Keeping the letter of the law in the New Testament, is not the Old Testament of blood of bulls and goats, with Jesus.

The NT is the law of God kept inwardly and outwardly through the Spirit with the blood of Jesus, not in outward letter only, but in Spirit and in truth.

Instead of talking about our nature, I will try another description.

It has nothing to do with the law itself, but how we are ABLE to keep it, and why.

In the OT after the law was given to Moses, a person who was used to doing as they liked before the law, now had laws that were against doing what they liked. It was like kindergarten for righteousness. So they had to memorize all these laws that were against what they wanted to do, which were stored in their mind. But what they naturally wanted to do, Paul calls "the flesh." Romans 8:8 "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." This describes those of the Old Testament who were under the law, but their heart/flesh wasn't in it. Romans 7:25 "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

Jesus solved this problem by making the law unnecessary to be memorized. In the New Covenant, instead of a person being forced to keep the law when the heart and flesh didn't want to, Jesus filled us with His Spirit and recreated our heart/nature (reborn) to be inline with God's laws and no longer against it. That is what happened when Jesus wrote the law on our hearts. So we are free from the written law, and instead keep it automatically. It is now our desire to keep the law, because our conscience (which is the heart where the laws are written) is super-sensitized to empower us to not disobey it. This why Paul said this powerful verse in Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

The letter of the law was from memorization only, but our flesh struggled. But by the Spirit is done automatically - no struggle.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

In the NT we no longer keep the letter of the law, because that is the OT with Jesus.

How can there be a difference between the law and the letter of the law, when the law is written in letter by the Spirit?

The law is written in letter, and so without the letter, there is no law.

The letter of the law is against fornication. How can we avoid keeping the letter of the law, while not fornicating according to the law?

Only fornicators don't keep the letter of the law against fornication.

The only way not to keep the letter of the law is to transgress the law.

So, in order to avoid keeping the letter of the law, as it were to not fall from grace, Christians are to be fornicators?

God forbid, of course.

Not only are all letters of the law of God good, but the letters of all Scripture are good, including every single jot and tittle of the law: the letter of the law are the letters of Scripture.

The Scripture is not against the letter of the law, but only written against seeking to keep the letter of the law only, without faith from the heart.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Outwardly keeping the letter of the law only kills, so long as we are not keeping the law within our hearts.

Keeping the letter of the law in the New Testament, is not the Old Testament of blood of bulls and goats, with Jesus.

The NT is the law of God kept inwardly and outwardly through the Spirit with the blood of Jesus, not in outward letter only, but in Spirit and in truth.

CONTINUED...

The letter of the law was from memorization only, but our flesh struggled. But by the Spirit is done automatically - no struggle, and NO SIN.

 

[robert derrick]

Instead of talking about our nature, I will try another description.

It has nothing to do with the law itself, but how we are ABLE to keep it, and why.

In the OT after the law was given to Moses, a person who was used to doing as they liked before the law, now had laws that were against doing what they liked. It was like kindergarten for righteousness. So they had to memorize all these laws that were against what they wanted to do, which were stored in their mind. But what they naturally wanted to do, Paul calls "the flesh." Romans 8:8 "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God." This describes those of the Old Testament who were under the law, but their heart/flesh wasn't in it. Romans 7:25 "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

Jesus solved this problem by making the law unnecessary to be memorized. In the New Covenant, instead of a person being forced to keep the law when the heart and flesh didn't want to, Jesus filled us with His Spirit and recreated our heart/nature (reborn) to be inline with God's laws and no longer against it. That is what happened when Jesus wrote the law on our hearts. So we are free from the written law, and instead keep it automatically. It is now our desire to keep the law, because our conscience (which is the heart where the laws are written) is super-sensitized to empower us to not disobey it. This why Paul said this powerful verse in Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

The letter of the law was from memorization only, but our flesh struggled. But by the Spirit is done automatically - no struggle.

It has nothing to do with the law itself, but how we are ABLE to keep it, and why.

Agreed. The letter only kills without the Spirit. We love and do the law of Christ from a pure heart, without grudging, even like giving, not by necessity, but by free charity of the Spirit.

This describes those of the Old Testament who were under the law, but their heart/flesh wasn't in it. Romans 7:25 "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

This is an interesting take that does not seek to excuse sinning in the flesh, while thinking to be serving God with the mind only.

It actually is the opposite of what you were speaking of while under the law as in bondage to it:

now had laws that were against doing what they liked. It was like kindergarten for righteousness. So they had to memorize all these laws that were against what they wanted to do, which were stored in their mind.

Now with my body I must serve the law, but with my mind I still hate it: just like kindergarten I remember well, and much later too.

They made their flesh do it with a begrudging heart and rebellious mind: doing as it were by law only, means only doing it outwardly because of the letter of the law and the punishment from not doing it.

Rom 7 is actually speaking of Christians that want to serve the law in their minds, and also desire to do so bodily, but find themselves in the double hearted state of wanting to, but not doing. Even when they do it by the letter outwardly, they know they still have a heart problem with lusting for sins of the world.

The cure for that is purifying our hearts, and being delivered from lust within, to serve God freely both in mind and in body in Rom 8.

Jesus solved this problem by making the law unnecessary to be memorized.

Because the law of Christ needs no memorization as that of Moses, because the law of Christ has done away with all the carnal ordinances for a worldly sanctuary and priesthood to serve in. (Heb 9)

Now only remains the law of righteousness that needs not memorization not to murder, steal, fornicate, drunkenness...and don't forget manstealing.

Memorization is neither necessary nor wrong, so long as we are doing Scripture from the heart, and can become a snare by pride of knowledge.

In the New Covenant, instead of a person being forced to keep the law when the heart and flesh didn't want to, Jesus filled us with His Spirit and recreated our heart/nature (reborn) to be inline with God's laws and no longer against it.

True and interestingly put: we must keep the law, but no longer by force of will, but now by partaking of the divine nature to do so gladly no longer by willpower of man, but by birth and power of God:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1)

That is what happened when Jesus wrote the law on our hearts. So we are free from the written law, and instead keep it automatically.

This is true, and once again interestingly said, but there is a minor correction needed to avoid a whole world of iniquity: We are not free from doing the law written in Scripture, no more than are we free from doing that same law written in our hearts.

I know what you are saying, and you know it also, that we are free from the bondage of being forced to obey a law in flesh, that we hate in mind, and so see the law of God as chains and shackles to be rid of:

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

In this context, Christian sinners that abhor doing any law as anathema to salvation by grace and faith only, think they have a hope in the resurrection by being freed from the conviction of transgression altogether. Unlike yourself as a saint in Christ Jesus, they do not believe in being freed from the power of the law in this life, but only after the body dies in the grave.

Christian sinners read being 'free from the law', as you put it, to being made free from doing the law period.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The only law were are free to do no more, is that of sin and death, but the law of Christ with His Spirit has made us free indeed to do with joy and gladness of a pure heart.

I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.

The liberty we rejoice in is a purified heart with His law written therein, so that doing His righteousness, as you say, is no longer a struggle and fight against the law, but a hand in hand fellowship with the One who both wrote the law and fulfilled it perfectly unto the end on the cross.

The letter of the law was from memorization only, but our flesh struggled.

I love the law in Scripture and every letter written therein. But if they only become letters without the Spirit, then I am dead once again.

Hey that rhymed.

But by the Spirit is done automatically - no struggle.

This is where obedience in the heart begins: there is no temporal time difference between believing and obeying God in the heart, where by the law of the Spirit written in our hearts we crucify and destroy the law of sin that commands us to lust and take thought for sin to obey in the mind.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

When the devil sends his fiery thoughts our way to invade our minds with lust for sin, we can with Jesus take no thought for them: we don't have to take it from the devil anymore when purified and sanctified within the soul to obey Him in all things.

 

[robert derrick]

CONTINUED...

The letter of the law was from memorization only, but our flesh struggled. But by the Spirit is done automatically - no struggle, and NO SIN.

Very good.

Christians sinners would say struggle with sinning, and NO CONDEMNATION for sin.

 

[quietthinker]

Why Argue Against Doing the Law?
cuz its convenient when I wanna do my own thing!

 

[Enoch111]

Jews may have obeyed or transgressed the law, and debated points of law, but they never argued about whether the law ought to be kept and obeyed.

The reason being that the New Covenant has superseded and replaced the Old Covenant. But there is still much confusion about how they are related. "Keeping the Law" means strictly obeying all 613 laws in the Law of Moses (which the Jews failed to do). Following the New Covenant means obeying the Law of Christ (the Law of Love) by the power of the Spirit.

 

[atpollard]

I can’t speak for what anyone but ME believes, but I do not object to obedience to the Law … it is predicted by Ephesians 2:10. What I object to is:

1. Salvation earned by obedience to the Law.
2. Obedience to the Law as a way to earn God’s love.

Too many people attempt to place “obedience” (Ephesians 2:10) before “salvation by grace through faith (not of ourselves)” (Ephesians 2:8-9), and THAT is something that I object to.

 

[Taken]

How can there be a difference between the law and the letter of the law, when the law is written in letter by the Spirit?

The law is written in letter, and so without the letter, there is no law.

The OT law APPLIED TO WHOM it was GIVEN and THEY WHO AGREED.

Are you a Hebrew? No?
...The Law was not given you.
Are you of ANY of the 12 Tribes of Israel? No?
...The Law was not given you.

Hebrews and Tribesmen were given the Law, AND Agreed to Obey the Law.

Jesus, A legal Jew of the House of David, FULFILLED the Mosaic Law.
So ALL the Hebrews and Tribesmen, WERE No longer Under the Law.
Oooh, but some Hebrews and Tribesmen, did not BELIEVE Jesus, and CHOSE to Continue under the Law...
No problem for their Choice, because Jesus did not destroy the Law, therefore they CAN continue under the Law...
(Tiny issue, since they have NO Temple for which to bring their “animal” sin offering, which is how they received their years forgiveness of sins).
No matter, they are planning to build a new Temple.

So why are you worrying about...THE LAW and THE LETTER of the LAW,
If the Law does not apply to you...why debate the law?

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Paul explained this rationale in Rom. 8:7 where he says that the carnal mind is hostile against God's laws and His authority. Of course, they would never say it out loud or even admit it to themselves that they hate God and resent His authority, but the fact that they think of the Law as a negative charter of oppressive rules that Jesus came to free people from shows that their faith, conversion, and religion aren't as true as they believe it is.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Very good.

Christians sinners would say struggle with sinning, and NO CONDEMNATION for sin.

Yes, they don't understand that Paul meant no condemnation when you no longer sin. The desire to sin is gone. And as far as "no condemnation," Paul in chapter 6 said to those who believe like this, 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The condemnation for sinning still exists. So be filled with the Spirit and walk in it continually so you remain a slave to righteousness. The thing is that our free will is still in our control, and that is why we still must KEEP ourselves, as in 1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

 

[quietthinker]

Why Argue Against Doing the Law?
all those restrictions gotta be for party poopers!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Why Argue Against Doing the Law?
all those restrictions gotta be for party poopers!

QT, you're silly...but that's why I love ya!

It's not the law, but what is not understood is the way we are able to keep the law. Either through memorization and by the letter. Or naturally with a new nature.

This is why keeping the day of the Sabbath Rest is by the letter ONLY so no longer required, and in the New Covenant, Jesus is our rest.

 

[Brakelite]

This is why keeping the day of the Sabbath Rest is by the letter ONLY so no longer required, and in the New Covenant, Jesus is our rest.

Please remember who brought the Sabbath into this...
But in regards your comment... Is that true? That Sabbath keepers keep the Sabbath only because the law says so? While I would agree that the written law confirms or affirms the observance of the Sabbath, you need to remember that the 7th day was made holy a couple of thousands years or more before the law was written. The day was already holy, the law simply asks us to remember that. Seems most would rather forget. And even though they would forget, or deliberately ignore it, that pesky seventh day is still holy. And nothing, absolutely nothing in the NT indicates that the same 7th day had lost its holiness. Nor has been altered in any way. It's about what you do with that day, that holy day, signifies your attitude toward the Creator, it being His holy day. Not the Jews day. Not seventh day adventists. But His.
Remember?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

that pesky seventh day is still holy.

But why? Did God need to rest physically? No. And no one kept the Sabbath until it was given to the Israelites, 2,500 years after creation, and made it law (by the letter) until the Creator came to earth.

I brought this up with QT, because that is the part of the law in the OP that he is most interested in, even though he is not SDA.

 

[quietthinker]

But why? Did God need to rest physically? No. And no one kept the Sabbath until it was given to the Israelites, 2,500 years after creation.

oooops, you must have forgotten!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

oooops, you must have forgotten!

I know - I was asking you and Backlit.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

oooops, you must have forgotten!

Old Covenant
memorization
keep the letter of the law
sin nature
learn all the laws
break one you break them all
death

New Covenant
repent to receive the Holy Spirit
Must be born again
divine nature
laws are written on our conscience
as long as you obey your conscience you are pleasing God
live up to the light you have, even if it isn't all the light there is, or that you'll ever receive. What He starts He will finish to perfection.
mature in the fruit of the Spirit 2 Peter 1:5-7
eternal life

 

[Brakelite]

laws are written on our conscience

So they supercede that which were written on stone?

But why?

Because He said so....
KJV Genesis 2:3
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
The fact that in Exodus 16 God said....3 months prior to Sinai...
KJV Exodus 16:23
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning....
Powerfully indicated the holiness of the day wasn't just for that first 7th day, but was a continuing nature of the day, regardless of who, where, and when people lived, and the law was granted to Israel as a reminder of that fact. Israel was to live that law as witnesses to the power and grace of the God they served in the face of wholesale idolatry everywhere else.
Times have changed, but human nature and God's purposes haven't. There is still wholesale idolatry and Christians are still called to be witnesses to God's power and grace through obedience to God's laws. And you are right. Those laws are now written on the fleshly tables of the heart rather than on stone... At least for those who are willing to accept them and believe. Christians today are only willing to accept 9 of them.

.