Why Christians Call Mary the Mother of God.

[David1701]

But that's precisely what's in dispute. You keep saying that bowing before a statue of Mary and praying to her is "by definition" idolatry, but that's the very point that needs to be demonstrated, not assumed.

The biblical definition of idolatry is not simply "being in the presence of an image." Scripture contains instances of bowing that are not worship (e.g., before kings, prophets, and other people), and God Himself commanded sacred images to exist in Israel's worship.

So I'm still asking for the biblical principle that distinguishes a lawful sacred image from an idol.

If your answer is simply, "Any image before which someone bows is an idol," then the cherubim in the Tabernacle and Temple become difficult to explain. If your answer is, "Any image connected with prayer is an idol," then you'll need to show that from the text, because Exodus 20 doesn't say, "You shall not make any religious image unless expressly commanded by God." That's the principle you're asserting, and I'm asking where Scripture teaches it.

The issue isn't whether idol worship is wrong. We both agree that it is. The issue is whether every act of bowing before an image or every use of a religious image is necessarily idol worship. That's the point that still hasn't been established.

Never mind....

Carry on praying to your idols if you want, but don't blame me if the consequences are dire. I tried to warn you.

 

[Marvelloustime]

and as far as your last question , Go to and behold them popes .
All dressed up in fancy garbs and all loving the titles of men . such as MOST HOLY FATHER
and most Holy reverand .
And having men to kneel before them and kiss a ring .
KINDA ODD dont ya think. WHEN even PETER hismelf had men to get up and not kneel before Him .
YEAH that RCC is t anked . But think not that i do not expose the wicked and vile d eeds
of many n that protestant realm as well .
And to think , most folks keep looking for a coming falling away . OH ITS HERE and its massive now .
For not only are sins and blasphemies now called good
EVEN the v ery gospel has been omitted for the sake of anti christ ecumenical intefaith peace .
YEAH . so much for this great awakening , ITS THE GREAT FALLING AWAY that abounds .
And it will do so and continue to get worse TILL one day in an hour and a day known to none
JESUS will rip the skies and launch wrath down upon this entire ecumeincal we are one
Inclusive peace of anti christ people .
NOW seeing I DO NOT desire their destruction but rather repentance , THAT IS WHY i warn all
to flee that harlot and her inclusive father satan who has done naught
but prepare this world and false relgoins and much of christendom for the day of their own sudden destruction s.

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

Never mind....

Carry on praying to your idols if you want, but don't blame me if the consequences are dire. I tried to warn you.

Take close heed to these next words .
Even many within houses and churches that claim to know God and Christ
are gonna wail in all out terror on the great and mighty Day of the Lord .
For they put all hope into men and into institutions
that had done naught but decieve this people and led them into greater darkness
under the guise that it was the LIGHT .
But do not marvel my friend that this can indeed be the case.
For satan , who be of the darkness , can indeed appear as an angel of light
and so too can his minstirs appear as if in wool .
And now a word .
IF the light that is in one is darkness , THEN GREAT IS that DARKNESS .

 

[amigo de christo]

Never mind....

Carry on praying to your idols if you want, but don't blame me if the consequences are dire. I tried to warn you.

And if the word that is in one has contradicted and twisted the words of the scriptures ,
IT BE NOT THE WORD within them .
Many have put sweet as if bitter
and clung to the bitter as if it were sweet . The poisoned waters of gall will be their bitter end .
For they drank only of empty polluted cisterns of men , who had taken the sweet OUT and put the bitter waters within their cup .
YE simply cannot sit at the table of Christ and of Anti christ
the table of light and of darkness
For all who do so sat only under the darkness that potrayed itself as though it were the Light of God .
for they twist the very Words of God unto their own destruction .
THY WORD o LORD is a LIGHT unto my f eet ,
only many twist and omit such lovely words of HE who is the WORD and did inspire such words .
Very deadly and highly deceptive be these days .
JESUS has the sheep and they shall not drink of the cup of a harlot or eat of the dung tables of corrupted men .
FOR JESUS has THE SHEEP
and by THE SPIRIT does lead them and guide them into ALL TRUTH and far from these strange hirlings
HE does keep them . Sheep dont eat goats chow . SHEEP eat and live by the holy words of the LORD
and HIS SPIRIT does lead and guide them .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Take close heed to these next words .
Even many within houses and churches that claim to know God and Christ
are gonna wail in all out terror on the great and mighty Day of the Lord .
For they put all hope into men and into institutions
that had done naught but decieve this people and led them into greater darkness
under the guise that it was the LIGHT .
But do not marvel my friend that this can indeed be the case.
For satan , who be of the darkness , can indeed appear as an angel of light
and so too can his minstirs appear as if in wool .
And now a word .
IF the light that is in one is darkness , THEN GREAT IS that DARKNESS .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

And if the word that is in one has contradicted and twisted the words of the scriptures ,
IT BE NOT THE WORD within them .
Many have put sweet as if bitter
and clung to the bitter as if it were sweet . The poisoned waters of gall will be their bitter end .
For they drank only of empty polluted cisterns of men , who had taken the sweet OUT and put the bitter waters within their cup .
YE simply cannot sit at the table of Christ and of Anti christ
the table of light and of darkness
For all who do so sat only under the darkness that potrayed itself as though it were the Light of God .
for they twist the very Words of God unto their own destruction .
THY WORD o LORD is a LIGHT unto my f eet ,
only many twist and omit such lovely words of HE who is the WORD and did inspire such words .
Very deadly and highly deceptive be these days .
JESUS has the sheep and they shall not drink of the cup of a harlot or eat of the dung tables of corrupted men .
FOR JESUS has THE SHEEP
and by THE SPIRIT does lead them and guide them into ALL TRUTH and far from these strange hirlings
HE does keep them . Sheep dont eat goats chow . SHEEP eat and live by the holy words of the LORD
and HIS SPIRIT does lead and guide them .

@amigo de christo

 

[prism]

A small example of what can be found on a quick search

5 Ways to Pray to Mary - FOCUS

Learn how to pray to Mary with FOCUS's guide on five ways to pray to Mary. Learn about and develop a relationship with our heavenly mother.

focus.org

The Politics of Papal Etiquette (to kiss the ring or not to kiss the ring?) — Catholic Voices

By Joe Ronan Until comparatively recently, the etiquette of greeting people was rather straightforward. A handshake would suffice for all other than close relatives, and even then polite restraint was the rule. Increasingly though social greetings seem to be becoming more divers

www.catholicvoices.org.uk

I'll let R. Catholics respond, I'd have bigger fish to fry.

 

[prism]

Well they do pray to her . when one is upon their knees saying things like O blessed mary .........
and making requests that is prayer to her . just as it is to the other saints .
and that be blasphemy .

May be true, my point is, I never made that accusation.

 

[BreadOfLife]

A person like you ?
GOD is 3 people ?

A person like ME? Absolutely NOT.
He’s not a Person like YOU, either . . .

We are made in HIS image – NOT the other way around. If WE are persons – it’s because GOD was a Person FIRST.

The Father is a Person.
The Son is a Person.
The Holy Spirit is a Person.

Three Persons – ONE God.
3 WHO's and 1 WHAT . . .

 

[prism]

no wonder so much confusion abounds . but so it does in much of the protestant realm as well .
When they too twist things to justify error rather than simply beleiving what is written .

A non sequitur.

 

[prism]

and as far as your last question , Go to and behold them popes .
All dressed up in fancy garbs and all loving the titles of men . such as MOST HOLY FATHER
and most Holy reverand .
And having men to kneel before them and kiss a ring .
KINDA ODD dont ya think. WHEN even PETER hismelf had men to get up and not kneel before Him .
YEAH that RCC is t anked . But think not that i do not expose the wicked and vile d eeds
of many n that protestant realm as well .
And to think , most folks keep looking for a coming falling away . OH ITS HERE and its massive now .
For not only are sins and blasphemies now called good
EVEN the v ery gospel has been omitted for the sake of anti christ ecumenical intefaith peace .
YEAH . so much for this great awakening , ITS THE GREAT FALLING AWAY that abounds .
And it will do so and continue to get worse TILL one day in an hour and a day known to none
JESUS will rip the skies and launch wrath down upon this entire ecumeincal we are one
Inclusive peace of anti christ people .
NOW seeing I DO NOT desire their destruction but rather repentance , THAT IS WHY i warn all
to flee that harlot and her inclusive father satan who has done naught
but prepare this world and false relgoins and much of christendom for the day of their own sudden destruction s.

Maybe odd, but a bit off topic, no?

 

[amigo de christo]

I'll let R. Catholics respond, I'd have bigger fish to fry.

we got an ecumeincal inclusive fish to expose . and its peace of anti christ plan for world peace .
and that my friend is ALL OVER the realm known as christendom
as well as politics and etc .
The unholy ecumeincal harlot has sold her fathers inclusive cup
unto the tribes of this world and upon all its religions .
To bring them as one to the table of ANTI CHRIST peace .
And now a word .
FOR this cause GOD shall send a strong delusion to beleive a lie
and be damned .
And do notice what this pual wrote in his first letter as well
ON what they would all be chanting as THEIR DAMNATION rains down upon them all . PEACE N SAFETY .
Oh i see a lie thta already has the religions mergeing as one
That says HEY WE ALL serve the same GOD in different ways . SO THE GOSPEL is OMITTTED
for a lie .
AND what does this entity promise them , YE shall have world peace n safety , THIS is the way to attain
PEACE n safety .
NO SIR . its the broad inclusve way to attain THEIR OWN SUDDEN DESTRUcTION BY THE VERY GOD
and HIS CHRIST that their incluisive love and peace DENIED .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Nothing says Peter, James or John…
Communicated with Moses or Elias…
Or
Moses or Elias communicated with Peter, James or John.

WRONG.

They ALL did, without speaking to them, directly.
An apparition is communication . . .

Yes. AND? Are you praying FOR Mary… ?

If So, WHY?
Is her Departed soul / spirit… plagued with sadness and unpleasantness?

Sure Does NOT sound like Mary’s soul and spirit would be Experiencing …
REST, PEACE and JOY!!!)

WHY?
God is greater than Mary is - and HE feels anger, sadness and offence when we sin.

Why would SHE experience any less when we sin?

You can second guess Paul all day Long…
He serves the Lord God…
Not you.

WRONG.

As Christians – we serve GOD by serving each other.
JESUS taught us that much (Matt. 25:31-46) . . .

Dead departed saints Can Not Hear you.
And Thank God…
How miserable that would be … and Not at all … The Rest, peace, joy, they were Promised!!

And …why try to put your corrupt choices on me ?
God doesn’t Stop you…
Your choices, your action, you reap the consequences.

No one said Departed soul can not pray For human on Earth…

Good grief…Do you really NOT comprehend… the crux?
COMMUNICATION…
YOU calling out To the departed…
Is the no, no, no, no Scripture Teaches!!!

You CHOOSE to Do that anyway…
Then You Desperately Try…
TO JUSTIFY your choice, your behavior…
BY comparing “apples and oranges”( the living and departed )…
Then slant this discussion …
Accusing me… of presenting False choices.

Get a Grip…
You have FREEWILL to CHOOSE to DO whatever YOU Want.

You reap the consequences (good or bad) FOR YOUR Choices.

Gods Word Never instructs the Living to call on the Departed..

God Ask your Catholic …
Why they Teach That, when Scripture Doesn’t.
Then ASK THEM…WHAT Is The Consequence God warned For calling on the Departed!

Come back with “their” Answer.
Because it is clear, you do Not Know.

NOT sure where you get your “Facts” from – but it certainly ISN’T the Scriptures.

The problem here is NOT asking those in Heaven to intercede for us. It is YOUR complete ignorance of the Mosaic Law.
Let’s review . . .

Lev. 20:6
Should anyone turn to MEDIUMS and FORTUNE-TELLERS and follow their wanton ways, I will turn against such a one and cut him off from his people.

Deut. 18:10-11
Let there not be found among you anyone who immolates (sacrifices) his son or daughter in the fire, nor a FORTUNE-TELLER, SOOTHSAYER, CHARMER, DIVINER, or CASTER OF SPELLS, nor one who CONSULTS GHOSTS and SPIRITS or SEEKS ORACLES from the dead.

The Mosaic prohibitions against necromancy are about seeking oracles from the dead, to reveal the future.

Necromancy
noun
nec·ro·man·cy ˈne-krə-ˌman(t)-sē
Definition
1: An ancient MAGICAL PRACTICE involving communication with the spirits of the dead, usually TO SEEK HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE, RECEIVE GUIDANCE, or FORETELL FUTURE EVENTs.

2: CONJURATION of the spirits of the dead for purposes of MAGICALLY REVEALING the future or influencing the course of events

This has NOTHING to do with asking for intercessory prayer.

- There is no conjuring of anything . . .
- There are no Magic revelations from the dead . . .
- There is no Seeking of oracles from the dead . . .

Do you believe that those who died in Christ are part of the Body of Christ?
OR – do you believe that they were kicked OUT of the Body when they left this world?

The Transfiguration shows us that the saints in Heaven are NOT the clueless, uninvolved entities that YOU claim they are (Matt. 17:1-8).

Heb 12:1
Therefore, since we are SURROUNDED by so great a cloud of WITNESSES, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us."

Tell me – what us a witness?
A person who sees and hears – or a clueless blind, deaf-mute?

 

[Taken]

WRONG.

They ALL did, without speaking to them, directly.
An apparition is communication . . .

LOL… you never cease to twist words.
They communicated With Jesus.
They observed two figures.
They did Not (Regard) Speak to Them Moses or Elias.

Lev. 20:6
Should anyone turn to MEDIUMS and FORTUNE-TELLERS and follow their wanton ways, I will turn against such a one and cut him off from his people.

Lev 19:
[31] Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 20:
[6] And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Deut. 18:10-11
Let there not be found among you anyone who immolates (sacrifices) his son or daughter in the fire, nor a FORTUNE-TELLER, SOOTHSAYER, CHARMER, DIVINER, or CASTER OF SPELLS, nor one who CONSULTS GHOSTS and SPIRITS or SEEKS ORACLES from the dead.

Deut 18:
[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Do you think you are Praying TO Mary’s Dead Body…
OR
her spirit that is familiar to you?

Part of your boring Tactics…
Making a long list of what does not apply…waste of time!

 

[beechan]

Nothing says Peter, James or John…
Communicated with Moses or Elias…
Or
Moses or Elias communicated with Peter, James or John.

The text does confirm Jesus communicated with Moses and Elijah. Jesus at that time is human.

No direct conversation is recorded is not the same as no direct conversation occurred.

 

[Taken]

The text does confirm Jesus communicated with Moses and Elijah. Jesus at that time is human.

The 3 men with Jesus was the point.
They did not communicate with (the two witnesses, Moses / Elias.

Jesus was never a human.
Humans come forth out of the Earth.
Jesus came forth out of Gods mouth,
Ie. Gods Word. (Isa 55:11)

No direct conversation is recorded is not the same as no direct conversation occurred.

Do not communicate with familiar spirits was taught in OT… I suspect those with Jesus knew the teaching and obeyed.

 

[beechan]

Jesus was never a human.

Jesus is 100% man, making him the perfect sacrifice to redeem our sins.
Check this with your pastor.

 

[Moonwood]

Never mind....

Carry on praying to your idols if you want, but don't blame me if the consequences are dire. I tried to warn you.

Respectfully, you've stopped addressing the argument.

I asked what biblical principle distinguishes the cherubim, the Temple imagery, and other sacred images commanded by God from Catholic statues. Simply calling a statue of Mary an "idol" does not answer that question. It assumes the very point under dispute.

We both agree that idolatry is wrong. The question is whether every religious image is an idol. Since God Himself commanded sacred images to be made, the existence of a religious image cannot by itself be what makes something idolatrous.

So I'm still asking for the biblical principle that distinguishes a lawful sacred image from an idol.

 

[David1701]

Respectfully, you've stopped addressing the argument.

I asked what biblical principle distinguishes the cherubim, the Temple imagery, and other sacred images commanded by God from Catholic statues. Simply calling a statue of Mary an "idol" does not answer that question. It assumes the very point under dispute.

We both agree that idolatry is wrong. The question is whether every religious image is an idol. Since God Himself commanded sacred images to be made, the existence of a religious image cannot by itself be what makes something idolatrous.

So I'm still asking for the biblical principle that distinguishes a lawful sacred image from an idol.

Already answered; but you don't listen. I won't respond to you again, in this thread.

 

[Moonwood]

Already answered; but you don't listen. I won't respond to you again, in this thread.

Respectfully, I don't believe that question was ever answered. Repeating that the cherubim were commanded by God tells us why the cherubim were lawful. It does not show where Scripture teaches that all other religious images are therefore forbidden.

That's the principle I was asking to see from the text.