Why did God...

[gordon7]

Understanding is in hearing the apostles of the Lord who do the same as Christ, or those with understanding to not do like them..


Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Brakelite]

More so as I believe he didn't pre-exist which makes the achievement even more spectacular. Also speaks to the Wisdom of God as a Father.

I couldn't agree less. What sacrifice was it for a father who could simply create another? What loss? What risk? But scripture says that God so loved the world, He gave us, humanity, His only begotten Son. The Father sent His only Son to live and to die. He sent Him into this world. If scripture declares that the Father sent His Son and gave Him to humanity, then it means He had a Son to send...a Son to give. That was as much a sacrifice for the Father, as it was for the Son. In fact, it is an eternal sacrifice, as the Son now for all eternity is limited to having a human body, a very large step down from the glory He shared with the Father before creation.

 

[gordon7]

I couldn't agree less. What sacrifice was it for a father who could simply create another? What loss? What risk? But scripture says that God so loved the world, He gave us, humanity, His only begotten Son. The Father sent His only Son to live and to die. He sent Him into this world. If scripture declares that the Father sent His Son and gave Him to humanity, then it means He had a Son to send...a Son to give. That was as much a sacrifice for the Father, as it was for the Son. In fact, it is an eternal sacrifice, as the Son now for all eternity is limited to having a human body, a very large step down from the glory He shared with the Father before creation.

It is also God who died for us.


1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

 

[Zao is life]

It's the correct word Brakelight, simply means one who has an inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way. In this instance Christ though having the tendency / desire / potential to sin, which really speaks to inclination, Christ denied it everytime.



That's reassuring Brakelight because many do not.

Agree 100%

More so as I believe he didn't pre-exist which makes the achievement even more spectacular. Also speaks to the Wisdom of God as a Father.


He inherited a nature which has the propensity, tendency, potential etc.


His nature is captured in these words:

John 2:25 states, He “knew what was in man.”

Why?

Because it was in him (by experience).

F2F

I agree. Adam was tempted before he himself became sinful, which means that sinless flesh had the propensity to sin.

Messiah is the last Adam, the Son of man, who took on flesh and came in the likeness of sinful flesh, though the Son of man, the last Adam remained sinless - but because He is fully man He had the same propensity to sin that sinless Adam had before he became sinful Adam.

- but Christ is also the Son of God, and when He was tempted as Adam was, He resisted it (in the wilderness 40 days after His baptism, when Satan himself tempted Him directly, as Satan had done with Adam), and when Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, He resisted it each time, living by faith in God and in His Word. So He could become identified with our sinfulness, so that we could become identified with His sinless righteousness.

How could He have become sin for us, otherwise? How could He be called the Son of man and the last Adam if He did not have the propensity to sin, just as Adam had before he sinned?

 

[Zao is life]

You need to study the actual meaning of the word propensity. I agree He could have sinned. And if He had, He, and all humanity with Him, would have been eternally lost. There was a huge risk for both the Father and the Son in taking on the burden of redeeming fallen man. Jesus did have within His human nature all the weaknesses and inherited deficiencies of 4000 years of rebellion. What He did not inherit was the propensity, the tendency, the evil desire toward selfishness and evil. That was not in His nature. His nature was to love... He was the express image of His Father.

We inherited the evil desire and selfishness etc from sinful Adam, not from sinless Adam, who only became sinful Adam when he sinned. Jesus was the last Adam, sinless Adam, who took on flesh and came in the likeness of sinful flesh with the same propensity to sin, but unlike Adam when he was still sinless, Christ did not sin when tempted.

The first time Jesus was tempted in the wilderness directly by Satan himself 40 days after His baptism, was when He was tempted in the likeness of Adam's temptation. As the Son of man and the last Adam He had to have the same propensity to sin in order to represent us or else we could not be credited with His sinless righteousness due to Him being credited with our sinful sin by becoming sin for us.

After the first temptation of Christ, the same Son-of-man-last-Adam propensity to sin was used by Satan to frequently (but more indirectly than the first time) put temptation in his path each time He was tempted to sin as we are, but He resisted each time by His faith in God His Father.

The first temptation of Christ was in the likeness of Adam's temptation, and it was Satan himself tempting Him directly. After that each time He was tempted to sin as we are, and it was indirect, but He remained without sin. He represented Adam first. Then He represented all the sons and daughters of Adam.

There is indeed a huge difference between propensity to sin and sinfulness. Propensity to sin is the lot of man, of flesh. Jesus became flesh.

 

[Zao is life]

What He did not inherit was the propensity, the tendency, the evil desire toward selfishness and evil. That was not in His nature. His nature was to love... He was the express image of His Father.

What you are saying is that what Jesus did not put on was flesh. Human flesh.

 

[Brakelite]

You guys are confusing the word propensity with capability. They are very different. By saying Jesus had the propensity to sin you are maligning His true character. I do not deny that He had free will and was capable of sinning.
PROPENSITY
an inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way.
"his propensity for violence".

We are called to be born again whereby our natural sinful tendencies to evil are removed from our characters and by partaking of the divine nature in Christ, we are changed into His image, having no propensities to sin and now having the power to overcome sin in our lives.
Be careful, exceedingly careful, as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.

 

[Brakelite]

In this instance Christ though having the tendency / desire / potential to sin,

No, a thousands times no. The Son of God never had any tendency or desire toward evil. Potential yes, desire... that's blasphemous.

 

[Brakelite]

It is also God who died for us.

Who are you referring to when you reference God? The trinity (whatever version thereof you may align with), the Father, or the Son? Can God die?

 

[gordon7]

NO talk of the cross, something is very missing here peeps. ( contentions in your so called Christian forums and in absolutely every single thread on them)...



1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

 

[face2face]

No, a thousands times no. The Son of God never had any tendency or desire toward evil. Potential yes, desire... that's blasphemous.

Ah I see now.
You don't understand the "process" of temptation.
Yes, Christ was tempted, yes Christ felt desire and yes Christ overcame those desires. To suggest otherwise is to say he was not tempted in all points like we are... and you would have him with a nature unlike your own.
You cant put a desire to death if you haven't experience it - impossible!

Gal 5:24 explains.

And those who belong to Christ Jesus (like Christ) have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

What you are saying is Christ only crucified the flesh, which removes the whole point of his sacrifice! If you say he had no passions, or desires then you remove his position as a High Priest who is able identify with those who are also tempted. In affect you are saying Christ never felt a desire which is impossible if he was truly the second Adam.

If you don't believe Christ is the ultimate example and fulfilling of Gal 5:24 then what is he? And why would you and I be asked to do something Christ never did?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Yes, and instead of disputing what Christ came to do, we can acknowledge it:



1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

If you don't understand why he was the second Adam acknowledging offers the believer no help at all.
F2F

 

[face2face]

I agree. Adam was tempted before he himself became sinful, which means that sinless flesh had the propensity to sin.

It's an obvious conclusion to arrive at.

Messiah is the last Adam, the Son of man, who took on flesh and came in the likeness of sinful flesh, though the Son of man, the last Adam remained sinless - but because He is fully man He had the same propensity to sin that sinless Adam had before he became sinful Adam.

Correct - likeness in Romans 8 is sameness! There are too many text suggesting Christ was in every respect like his brothers.

- but Christ is also the Son of God, and when He was tempted as Adam was, He resisted it (in the wilderness 40 days after His baptism, when Satan himself tempted Him directly, as Satan had done with Adam), and when Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, He resisted it each time, living by faith in God and in His Word. So He could become identified with our sinfulness, so that we could become identified with His sinless righteousness.

How could He have become sin for us, otherwise? How could He be called the Son of man and the last Adam if He did not have the propensity to sin, just as Adam had before he sinned?

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinth 5:21

The issue is this - how was sin represented in Christ's body?

The answer to this question will open up the theme of the atonement and open the way for true forgiveness.

F2F

 

[face2face]

It's who not what; it's him not it.

Any progress on Hebrews 2 Quiet?

You worked out the devil in verse 14 is referring to sin itself - what does this do for your understanding of the slavery we all find ourselves in?

I'll highlight the teaching of sin and its affects in red

Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he (Jesus) likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one (sin personified) who holds the power of death (that is, the devil i.e Sin), 2:15 and set free (from death) those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death (Quiet, see how Paul answers the meaning of Devil?) . 2:16 For surely his concern is not for angels (who have divine nature), but he is concerned for Abraham’s descendants (condemned flesh). 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect (share that condemned flesh), so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. 2:18 For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Heb 2:14–18.

By now, you are thinking how on earth did I manage to force some evil being into that text but you are not alone Quiet, many do to their own harm.

What to do now?

Well, you can take this knowledge and start to apply it to others sections of the Bible - remember its the hiddens things which belong to God and he likes to share them with His Children.

Enjoy your day

F2F

 

[face2face]

You guys are confusing the word propensity with capability.

No we are not.

They are very different. By saying Jesus had the propensity to sin you are maligning His true character.

No you are not. You are reducing his struggles in the flesh to no struggle at all...its actually you who are removing his victory.

Do me a favor Brakelite

But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Luke 12:50

Look up the word straitened and explain what is meant?
Then answer why the Lord would use this word in relation to his daily, hourly by the minute and second struggle?
What is the time duration of this struggle?

It's quite possible you are yet to meet the Lord - I can show him to you if you so desire?

I do not deny that He had free will and was capable of sinning.
PROPENSITY
an inclination or natural tendency to behave in a particular way.
"his propensity for violence".

synonym leaning, propensity, proclivity, penchant mean a strong instinct or liking for something. leaning suggests a liking or attraction not strong enough to be decisive or uncontrollable 〈a student with artistic leanings〉. propensity implies a deeply ingrained and usually irresistible inclination 〈a propensity to offer advice〉. proclivity suggests a strong natural proneness usually to something objectionable or evil 〈a proclivity for violence〉. penchant implies a strongly marked taste in the person or an irresistible attraction in the object 〈a penchant for taking risks〉 Inc Merriam-Webster, Websters Dictionary (Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc., 2003).

If you believe Christ had our nature then you must also believe he felt the urges of his nature otherwise you must give Christ a hybrid nature and therefore he is nothing like those he came to save. Paul's teachings all would be in error on the true nature of Christ. Brakelite, I know you have had strong instinct, you have been attracted strongly to things in your life and we all have a natural proneness as Christ did however he "put to death" those feelings in himself. Keep in mind he had temptations you will never have! He had the Spirit without measure and imagine the temptations that caused in him?

We are called to be born again whereby our natural sinful tendencies to evil are removed from our characters and by partaking of the divine nature in Christ,

Divine nature is promised to be received either at his coming or by resurrection of the dead.

we are changed into His image, having no propensities to sin and now having the power to overcome sin in our lives.

No, only those who have divine nature cannot sin! James 1 is emphatic only human nature can act on its own lusts....divine nature is the nature of God Himself!

Be careful, exceedingly careful, as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam.

Yes, he is the Second Adam who the Father put to death along with all the propensities to sin.

The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing.

True

Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God.

Here is where you go wrong Brakelite. In nature Adam, in Mind like His Father but still had the carnal mind - "not my will but thine"
Jesus himself acknowledges the putting to death of that mind in the garden.

If you don't believe Christ had an opposing mind to his Father then you have lost the Christ and deny what he was raised up to achieve.

He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.

If Christ had not gone to the Cross would this have been evil in the sight of God?

Why do you think he was sweating droplets of blood? Straightened? Agony? Over what?...you will arrive at the truth Brakelite!
Why would he ask his Father if there was another way? What way was his considering?
The victory over the flesh and the carnal mind happened in the Garden - he was crucified there and once he submitted to his Fathers Will he went to the cross willingly accepting what would come.

In the end you have nowhere to go Brakelite - “The carnal mind is enmity against God.” Romans 8:7 - Christ had this mind in him - he had thoughts which opposed his Fathers Will but each time (every time) he cast them down - put them to death.

For you to say he never had them makes a mockery of his life and sacrifice and reduces the Master to a mere puppet on strings.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Brakelite

Here is where care is needed.

A carnal mind is only such when its acted upon (it can have latent potential!!). But the righteous “mortify the deeds of the body” (Rom 8:13), and in that sense “are not in the flesh,” do not “live after the flesh,” have not the “carnal mind,” but “the Spirit of Christ. through belief”

However, when we sin (being in Christ) we do so with a carnal mind!

Christ had the potential, but as Paul so aptly puts it here in 2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

If we apply this same teaching to Christ it would read

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of God:

A thought is not sin until its acted upon! Which means Christ had thoughts, temptations and urges to do things sometimes he was caught off guard like when the woman was caught in adultery, this no doubt angered the Lord greatly and stooped down but none the less he maintained self control...even in the clearing out of the money changes he showed a righteous anger (self control!)...every time he was able to act in wisdom and as Paul said....Lock up those evil thoughts and bring every thought into the obedience of his God his Father.

You would have a major problem with the text if you suggested Christ never had "evil" thoughts...you would believe he had nothing to "imprison", no place of captivity in his mind!

I couldn't follow such a Christ, if he didn't know by experience the full force of fallen nature.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Any progress on Hebrews 2 Quiet?

You worked out the devil in verse 14 is referring to sin itself - what does this do for your understanding of the slavery we all find ourselves in?

I'll highlight the teaching of sin and its affects in red

Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he (Jesus) likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one (sin personified) who holds the power of death (that is, the devil i.e Sin), 2:15 and set free (from death) those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death (Quiet, see how Paul answers the meaning of Devil?) . 2:16 For surely his concern is not for angels (who have divine nature), but he is concerned for Abraham’s descendants (condemned flesh). 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect (share that condemned flesh), so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. 2:18 For since he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Heb 2:14–18.

By now, you are thinking how on earth did I manage to force some evil being into that text but you are not alone Quiet, many do to their own harm.

What to do now?

Well, you can take this knowledge and start to apply it to others sections of the Bible - remember its the hiddens things which belong to God and he likes to share them with His Children.

Enjoy your day

F2F

It appears you are having a conversation with yourself. You imagine two sides one which you call 'Quiet' How do I know this? because you know what 'Quiet' is thinking and concluding ....and the other in the conversation freely dishes out advice to 'Quiet'

 

[Brakelite]

It appears you are having a conversation with yourself. You imagine two sides one which you call 'Quiet' How do I know this? because you know what 'Quiet' is thinking and concluding ....and the other in the conversation freely dishes out advice to 'Quiet'

Now that sounds excruciatingly familiar. He has developed an entire theology based on what he thinks others are thinking. And as you say, proceeds to offer counsel to the 'others' on the best way to free themselves of the errors of their ways. Probably the easiest world be to quit the conversation.

 

[gordon7]

Until the wicked are taken away, they wont see righteously that charity edifies and knowledge puffs up, your discissions are not charity they are the other, take it or leave it.


1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

[Zao is life]

It's an obvious conclusion to arrive at.

Correct - likeness in Romans 8 is sameness! There are too many text suggesting Christ was in every respect like his brothers.


God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinth 5:21

The issue is this - how was sin represented in Christ's body?

The answer to this question will open up the theme of the atonement and open the way for true forgiveness.

F2F

Not sure about the last two sentences because I don't know what your answer is to the question, but the rest I agree with, of course.