Why do Catholics…

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To all those out there with a grudge against the Church, especially to the media, let me say this. I want you to attack the Church with everything you have. I want you to expose every skeleton, in every closet, of every Bishop, Priest, and Brother or Sister you can find. I want you to probe and penetrate, search and investigate, inquire and interrogate. Leave no stone unturned. Bring your experts on television, tell us your opinion, and make your predictions. Tell us in the strongest terms you can just how weak, how immoral, how stupid, cruel, cold and callous the leaders of the Catholic Church really are. I only ask that you tell the truth. Tell just enough truth, in just the right way, to make life in the Church appear solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. Keep pointing your finger and cry bad, bad, bad until you run out of breath. I want you to use all your influence, howsoever much it might be, to persuade as many minds as you can that the Church is full of hypocrites, liars, cowards. Try to prove that all of us must finally come to agree with you that the Church is really nothing special. I even want you to talk with Catholic theologians who will agree with you, and demand that the Church must change, change, change, change! Let us hear how out of touch with reality the leadership is, let us hear how snotty, how arrogant, how aloof they are, how blah, blah, blah I want you to keep asking why the Church has not hired any P.R. firms to help maintain its image and credibility like the Mormon Church and Jehovah Witnesses do. Then I want you to turn around and blame the Bishops for only caring for the Church‚s image and credibility. Keep making these sorts of observations please, I urge you. Do not hold back. Your chains have been unloosed for a short while. Give us your best shot.

Oh how I relish these days! So many people at once thinking about the Catholic Church. To all those out there who are paying attention to the Church, to all the men and women of good will, let me say this. The claim we make now, always have made, and always will make is that the Church comes from the Apostles, the Apostles come from Christ, and Christ comes from God. My theology comes from above. The Catholic Church is established by God to communicate the truth about God, man, and the world to all people in every nation under heaven. She is endowed by God with all the power She needs to teach the truth and to perpetuate the mission of Jesus Christ in the world. Perhaps the word power frightens you. Perhaps you fear the Church is trying to impose Her opinions upon you. But before you fear, look at a crucifix and ask yourself whether that looks like a man trying to impose upon on you.

To all of you out there who are willing to think the matter through with me, I say that the argument is always the same. Either the Church originates from God or the Church originates from men. Now, if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God. (Acts 5:38-9) That is why I want the attack to be severe. The more the wretchedness of Catholic leaders is brought to light the better. For if the Church is of God, then even the most furious attack upon it, even the most evident dirty truth about Her leaders -- no matter what its magnitude, no matter what its duration, no matter what its degree of intensity -- all of the efforts of those who would destroy the Church will come to naught. All the power and the influence of the media, the secularists, the skeptics, the Catholic bashers and the bigots, all of it will come to nothing, even though we ourselves hand them ammunition so damaging that they could ask for none better.

That is why I relish these days, for in these days the invincible stability of the Church is shining brightly. The evil, both within the Church and without, only shows that God is with us, that it is God Himself who stabilizes the Catholic Church. It is God who vouches for Her message. It is God who is telling the story that the Church is constantly telling about Herself. The Church is not merely the product of man.

What shall all you gleeful opponents of the Church say in reply? If you say that the Church is from men, that it is just one more social institution among others, then you are forced to defend the manifestly ridiculous proposition that it is Bishops and Priests who have held the Church together for thousands of years. Don't make me laugh. What shall you say? Shall you say instead that it is the laity who hold the Church together? Catholic laity are hardly known for their widespread and fervent enthusiasm. American Catholics these days indulge in their designer spouses all fixed up on their diaphragms and pills just as much as the rest of the world does. American Catholics so completely bought into the 60’s that we should expect to see the Church going the way of the 60’s. Why is it not? Why does the Church still teach that men should not sleep with men, nor women sleep with women, nor should women and men sleep with each other unless the other person is ones only living spouse and not semi-rejected with contraception?

Don’t bother saying the Church will change these teachings as soon as Pope Francis dies. When he dies, he will be stronger and more influential than ever.
Perhaps the best you opponents of the Church can do to explain why the Church is so invincibly stable is to pull out your old-fashioned rationalism. All you can say is that what keeps the Church going is simply that the Church provides a fairy tale to fill people‚s deepest emotional and psychological needs for personal meaning and comfort. But now you have passed from the ridiculous to the absurd. You are telling me that, despite all the hostile forces against it, despite all the obstacles in its path, and despite all the wickedness, wretchedness, ineptitude and imbecility in her own members, the reason why the world‚s oldest and largest institution has been perpetuated is just because Catholics have a great fairy tale to comfort them? Your explanation boils down to the claim that the Catholic Church has grown and survived, and become all that it is, just because Catholics are irrational. From your explanation, it follows that irrationality is more successful in the long run. If that is so, then why should I be what you call rational?

If irrationality is better in the long run, then what must we say of your god Rationalism? Rationalism has not smiled very brightly on the societies you organized in its name. For where are your rationally organized societies now? They are long dead, recently dead, or currently dying. It seems that your god Rationalism is good for nothing. The twilight of that idol has been upon us for some time now.

Any man who denies that the Church is from God must attribute to Catholics a certain sort of excellence that we would not dare attribute to ourselves. He must attribute to us the capacity to perpetuate our message and way of life for millennia, to spread it all over the world to people of every language and culture, and to get over a billion people to get down on their knees and say to a fictitious God, “Thy will be done”, all without any help from above, without any divine assistance, and without any grace from a real God. Do you realize what you have said if you attribute that sort of excellence to us? You have said that Catholics are “uebermenschen”: people who live, and move, and act far above the ordinary run of their fellows. You have said that we are a superior race of people, for ours is a two thousand year Reich, two thousand years and counting. Make no mistake. I do not say that we are uebermenschen. You do.

For it is you who deny that the Church is from above, it is you who deny that it is God who perpetuates the Church, it is you who deny that we are being taught by God, and so it is you who must affirm that we have achieved it all by our own natural talents. How ridiculous for you to say that we are all that.

When I finish visiting the pedophile priests that were protected by the Catholic church I will head over to the nearest pueblo and hear again how the Catholic church butchered their ancestors and believed in "kill the Indian, save the child".

Tell me, how many people have been murdered throughout history because they refused to join the Catholic church? Start with the crusades, continue with the various inquisitions and excommunications of believers, then cross the ocean and recount the murders of the indigenous people from Canada to Chile, all in the name of the Catholic denomination.

It is you who deny that the Catholic denomination has a bloody history, it is you who deny that it is God who perpetuates the true Church, not your denomination, and it is you who deny that Protestants and Orthodox are being taught directly by God, instead of by the Pope, the Cardinals, the Bishops and the priests.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ferris Bueller

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

Pax et Bonum
Like I say, friend, when your wine and your bread actually become real human blood and tissue, call me. Until then I won't be playing any of the Catholic's delusional pretend games about the elements.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim B and BeyondET

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well, duh, if we're both spouting off unBiblical teachings then we're both wrong. I'm guessing you meant to frame the question that way.

Most of us agree on the fundamental truth of justification/salvation by faith in the blood without the aid of works. As long as a person believes that they are born again and belong to the body of Christ, the church, along with us. The rest is a matter of growing up into the image and knowledge of Christ. Non-Catholics are more unified than you think.

First off, the church IS each individual follower, not just those with spiritual gifts of leadership. And, of course, we know not every individual has authority in the church:

"11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers" Ephesians 4:11

"12...acknowledge those who work diligently among you, who preside over you in the Lord and give you instruction." 1 Timothy 5:12

What each of us does have individually is the Spirit of discernment to ultimately know if those who claim to be in authority over us really are, and if what they teach is really the truth. The Bible is very clear about this.

Every individual true believer will in fact be led into all truth. The Holy Spirit tells every true believer what is true and what is not. It's a growth process. It's those masquerading as true believers who do not have the Spirit that do not grow up into the truth.

Non-Catholics are no different than Catholics in that we have people who don't have the Spirit, too. Besides the fact that individual believers are all at different stages of knowledge and revelation it's just a given that where the true church of real believers are there will be tares among them. They are the one's that refuse to acknowledge the truth and persist in lies.

" 18...“In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.”e 19These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit." 1 Jude 1:18-19
WRONG.
Even this short list of differences proves that the Holy Spitiy doesn't doesn't teach every individual the truth - when they reject the truths of His Church.

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

This confusion is 100% MAN MADE. You can pretend ALL day long that you were "led" to this confusion by the Holy Spirit. - but He is NOT the God of Confusion.

When you reject the truth of Christ's Church - which Paul calles the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) - you'rve ABANDONED the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15).
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What's so hard about staring at the elements and seeing that they are wine and bread and not blood and flesh? If Jesus literally meant 'real' flesh and blood you'd have 'real' blood and flesh at Communion. But as we can all plainly see for ourselves it isn't that way.

The elements are 'real' in that they give life, just like a loaf of bread gives life.
We DO have flesh and blood at Communion - because Jesus said so.
Jesus SAID it - I BELIEVE it.

If Jesus said that the bread and wine become cotton candy - I would believe it because He is GOD.
YOU son't have the faith to take that leap.

Do you believe that God simply spoke and the Universe leapt into existence - all of the planets, stars, galaxies and solar systems?
Yet, you have trouble believing in the Eucharist??
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip James

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WRONG.
Even this short list of differences proves that the Holy Spitiy doesn't doesn't teach every individual the truth - when they reject the truths of His Church.

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

This confusion is 100% MAN MADE. You can pretend ALL day long that you were "led" to this confusion by the Holy Spirit. - but He is NOT the God of Confusion.

When you reject the truth of Christ's Church - which Paul calles the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) - you'rve ABANDONED the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15).
Are you dense? Why aren't you getting this, lol?

Differences stem from the fact that not everybody who claims to belong the body of Christ have the Holy Spirit in them in salvation to be able to discern truth from error (Jude 1:19), and, among those who do have the Spirit we're all growing up into the knowledge of Christ and are at different stages of growth (Ephesians 4:13). It's a process. Good grief, man. Start paying attention! And, furthermore, there are subjects that the Bible does not talk about, or leaves room for honest and legitimate debate. Read Romans 14 in its entirety if you don't know that, which you apparently do not.
 
Last edited:

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We DO have flesh and blood at Communion - because Jesus said so.
Jesus SAID it - I BELIEVE it.
If he meant what Catholics say he meant you would indeed be eating real actual human flesh and drinking real actual blood at Communion. But as any honest person has to admit that's wine in that cup, not blood, and that's bread your eating, not human flesh. You're in Lala land, lost in the Catholic delusion if you think you're eating actual, real human blood and flesh. You are not. Simply looking at and tasting the elements proves that they are not real human blood and flesh.

If Jesus said that the bread and wine become cotton candy - I would believe it because He is GOD.
YOU son't have the faith to take that leap.
That's a leap of stupidity to say the wine and bread, that you can taste and see are wine and bread not flesh and blood, is somehow real actual human flesh and blood. And if Jesus did say it is cotton candy, or would become cotton candy, IT REALLY WOULD BE COTTON CANDY, NOT WINE AND BREAD!

Do you believe that God simply spoke and the Universe leapt into existence - all of the planets, stars, galaxies and solar systems?
Yes, I believe that. If there were no "planets, stars, galaxies and solar systems" in existence then I would have no basis to believe, by faith, that God did that. And so it is with your wine and bread. Until it really does become actual human blood and flesh we have no choice but to conclude that what Catholics say Jesus said about it being real human blood and real human flesh is SIMPLY NOT TRUE. It's obviously figurative. At least we have a created universe that actually exists to back up God's claim that he created them and spoke them into existence. But your Catholic belief about transubstantiation? Not an ounce of evidence exists to show that you're eating actual real human blood and flesh. It simply doesn't happen! Any moron can see that!

Yet, you have trouble believing in the Eucharist??
I believe in the Communion elements FOR WHAT THEY ACTUALLY MEAN, not what a Catholic delusional myth says they mean.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim B

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Having a denominational name is irrelevant.
The Rock Foundation Belief of Christ’s Church is;
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.[/QUOTE]

And simply "believing" in that does not make you a Christian.
I know a LOT of people who believe this but have perverted the rest and could NEVER be considered Christian.

Besides - you missed the entire point. I was talking about how people who CLAIM to be "The Church" along with every other denomination - yet they teach VERY different Christ's than their neighbor.
The Scriptures leads an individual to the Truth.
The Holy Spirit leads an individual to the Understanding of the Truth.
Philosophies of men leads individuals to unbiblical/ nonScriptural/ teachings.
Thank you for that nonsensical anresponse.

Tnhe fact remains that different denominations with different doctrines = something OTHER than "truth".
Patently False.
No - its absolutely TRUE.
Otherwisw I wouldn't have to be her . . .
The individual who Heartfully Believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God on the day he DIES.....he SHALL BE SAVED

ADDITIONALLY IF THAT individual:
has Heartfully Confessed he Believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God,
AND THAT individual:
has Repented for having NOT BELIEVED Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
AND THAT individual:
Willingly lays down his own life Crucified with Jesus, THAT DAY, that individual IS SAVED.
Shall be SAVED, is SAVED; BOTH are being lead by the Holy Spirit.
Shall be SAVED, can also be lead by the Philosophies of men.
Was that individual BAPTIZED into Christ?

Here is what Jesus says about that:
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes ABD IS BAPTIZED will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

He ALSO says:
Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes ABD IS BAPTIZED will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
No, Gods Word is CLEAR:
The SAVED, are lead by the “indwelling” Holy Spirit.
The SHALL BE SAVED, can be lead by the Holy Spirit “WITH” them;
OR go astray to the Philosophies of men.

God does NOT perpetuate Confusion...men do.
...Your Catholic Church clerics for centuries have perpetuated confusion.
This is the same stupid answer as before.
Of COURSE men do - just like your Protestant Fathers who spawned all of this mess,
]First of all, Yes Christ Jesus’ Church IS HIS CHURCH. The highlight being “HIS”...not church.
The Authority given HIS church IS to SPEAK HIS Word.
To SPEAK HIS Word is the authority of EVERY MEMBER of HIS church.
WRONG.

First of all - He and His Church are ONE (Col. 1:18). He compares His very SELF with His Church, which Paul calles, the FULLNESS of Him (Eph. 1:22-23). YOU don't know the FIRST thing about Hisa Church - so you''re HARDLY pone to give lessons here . . .
That is your philosophical learning of men, NOT Christ Jesus.
Christ Jesus’ Church IS Precisely men HAVING the “HOLY SPIRIT WITH AND IN them”.
Their TITLE IS they ARE Christ’s CHURCH.
Yes EACH individual DOES have the Authority to SPEAK Gods Word!

SUUUUURRRRRRE
it us . . .

Tell that to your tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering factions that can't agree on doctrine because you ALL believe YOUR interpretatioons are "correct".

What an absolutel abomination you've created . . .
LOL...your old and boring claims are still old and boring.

The FOUNDATION of ANY man built establish Church that IS founded ON the Rock Foundation THAT:
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, IS established AS Christ’s Church.

* Not rocket science for an individual to OPEN THEIR EARS and HEAR IF that Church’s “Cleric’s, Preachers, Teachers” Preach and Teach;
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.......OR NOT!

* Not rocket science for an individual to OPEN THEIR BIBLE and VERIFY what “cleric’s, preachers, teachers” preach and teach, is True....OR NOT.

Your pretense that the catholic church (built upon Peter), and all it’s ‘sects’ you call ‘rites” have a MONOPOLY on Christ’s Church, is corrupt and laughable on it’s face.
And "old and boring" doesn't mean "Untrue".
When I speak of the disjointed gaggle of tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant factions that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to have been "led" tpo this confusion by the Holy Spirit - this is a 100% TRUE statement.

PS - A Liturgical Rite isn't a splintered sect, like you have in Protestantism.
We are iin FULL COommunion doctrinally. They are largely ponly CULTURAL differences.

Do your hoomework . . .
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,195
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I believe in the Communion elements FOR WHAT THEY ACTUALLY MEAN, not what a Catholic delusional myth says they mean.
Because you lack faith. Nobody is imposing a belief on you. You don't accept the doctrine of transubstantiation, that's your business. But your opposing arguments is based on good ole' fashioned rationalism. "Catholic delusional myth" is rude and insulting. You do it automatically without thinking because that is how you have been trained to think.

The Eucharist is either Jesus or mere bread and wine.

If the Eucharist is Jesus, everyone should be at Mass, worshipping Our Lord. If the Eucharist is Jesus, there should be no such thing as Protestantism, Mormonism, Islam, atheism, etc. But if the Eucharist isn’t Jesus, then for two thousand years, the would-be followers of Jesus Christ were actually idolaters. If that’s the case, nobody should be Catholic.

So those are the stakes. Everyone who encountered Jesus of Nazareth was faced with a crucial question: is this God, in some mysterious guise, or not? The early Christians called this the “aut Deus aut malus homo” (“either God or a bad man”). Everyone encountering the Eucharist is faced with the same question: either God or idolatry.

And of course, if the Eucharist is pagan idolatry, it’s demonic. As 1 Corinthians 10:20 says, “what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God.”

The whole world hangs on this point: is the Eucharist Jesus or an idol? Is the Sacrifice of the Mass being offered to God, or to demons?

Satan Hates the Eucharist
The satanic Black Mass is a ritual inversion (and mockery) of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass performed by Satanists. Now, there are two types of Satanists: “LaVey Satanists,” and “theological Satanists.” LaVey Satanists atheists who don’t believe in Satan, and use “Satanism” as a tool to harass and provoke Christians (unlike“theological Satanists,” who believe in Satan and worship him). But whether the practitioners are playing at the occult, or serious, there’s no question that they’re tapping into some seriously dark spiritual forces. Satan is at work here.

And it worth pointing out that when Satanists (of both kind) want to mock a religious ritual, you can bet that it’s going to be the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that they target. How often do you hear about Muslim or Hindu or Jewish (or even Protestant) services being subjected to such intense Satanic mockery?

Nor is this Satanic targeting of the Mass anything new. As far back as the fourth century, St. Epiphanius of Salamis described a sect of Gnosticism performing a perverted mockery of Mass. I won’t go into the details, but it was graphic enough that the members of this sect became known as “Borborians” (“filthy ones”).

Satan Doesn’t Drive Out Satan
So the Eucharist is either Jesus or evil (since if it’s not Jesus, it’s idolatry) and since the devil hates the Eucharist, we can cross “evil” off the list.

For some additional Biblical support, consider Matthew 12.22-28:

“Then a blind and dumb demoniac was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the dumb man spoke and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?” But when the Pharisees heard it they said, “It is only by Be-el′zebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.”

“Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; and if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Be-el′zebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”


This passage is important: it shows, for example, that Catholic exorcists are operating by the Spirit of God when they drive out demons. But it also means that if Satan hates the Mass, we can be sure that the Mass isn’t evil.

Of course, if the Mass isn’t demonic, if it isn’t idolatry, that really only leaves one option: that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ, and that the Sacrifice of the Mass is presenting Jesus to the Father. This (and as far as I can tell, this alone), accounts for the Satanic mockery.

The Target of Satan
Even if the only thing you knew about Catholicism was that its central form of worship, the Mass, was the target of Satanic ire, you would already have good reason to believe that Catholicism was the true religion.

But taken with all of the other evidence for the truth that the Eucharist is Jesus, that the Mass is a Sacrifice instituted by God, and that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Christ, Satan is just one more (unwitting) witness for the truth of Jesus Christ and His Church.
How the Satanic Black Mass Proves the Truth of Catholicism -
 

RedFan

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2022
1,298
560
113
69
New Hampshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The whole world hangs on this point: is the Eucharist Jesus or an idol? Is the Sacrifice of the Mass being offered to God, or to demons?

I think there is a third alternative: that Roman Catholics might simply be mistaken, albeit well-intentioned, about the Eucharist being the actual body and blood of Christ, with no intent or purpose to offer any sacrifice to demons.

Intent matters here. There are many Protestant Christians who celebrate the Eucharist solely as a commemoration of the Last Supper, without the slightest belief that the elements are (or could ever be consecrated into) the actual body and blood of Christ. They are certainly not offering anything to demons! So the notion that one either believes in the Real Presence or is offering something to Satan presents a false dichotomy. This isn't even remotely like eating meat that was intentionally sacrificed to idols.

[I'm not Roman Catholic, but I happen to subscribe to the Real Presence (albeit consubstantiation rather than transubstantiation). Just thought I'd make that disclosure for my own protection. It's amazing to me how often posters on this site immediately construe the slightest dissent as an enemy attack on their entire religion, needing to be beaten back with as much vitriol as can be mustered. Illuminator, I hope you aren't that type of poster, but if you are that type of poster, kindly give me a pass here.]
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim B

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If he meant what Catholics say he meant you would indeed be eating real actual human flesh and drinking real actual blood at Communion. But as any honest person has to admit that's wine in that cup, not blood, and that's bread your eating, not human flesh. You're in Lala land, lost in the Catholic delusion if you think you're eating actual, real human blood and flesh. You are not. Simply looking at and tasting the elements proves that they are not real human blood and flesh.


That's a leap of stupidity to say the wine and bread, that you can taste and see are wine and bread not flesh and blood, is somehow real actual human flesh and blood. And if Jesus did say it is cotton candy, or would become cotton candy, IT REALLY WOULD BE COTTON CANDY, NOT WINE AND BREAD!


Yes, I believe that. If there were no "planets, stars, galaxies and solar systems" in existence then I would have no basis to believe, by faith, that God did that. And so it is with your wine and bread. Until it really does become actual human blood and flesh we have no choice but to conclude that what Catholics say Jesus said about it being real human blood and real human flesh is SIMPLY NOT TRUE. It's obviously figurative. At least we have a created universe that actually exists to back up God's claim that he created them and spoke them into existence. But your Catholic belief about transubstantiation? Not an ounce of evidence exists to show that you're eating actual real human blood and flesh. It simply doesn't happen! Any moron can see that!


I believe in the Communion elements FOR WHAT THEY ACTUALLY MEAN, not what a Catholic delusional myth says they mean.

I have written about this before, but it needs repeating. Let's go back to the "last supper", i.e., the Passover meal that Jesus shared with His disciples. They are reclining at the table and Jesus, in the flesh, i.e., alive, passes around the bread and wine and tells them to repeat this tradition to remember Him when He is no longer with them. How can the bread and wine actually be Jesus' body and blood when He is alive, at the table, passing the bread and wine? It is absurd to think that somehow, at a later date, the food and drink that Jesus passed around, actually becomes Him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ferris Bueller

RedFan

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2022
1,298
560
113
69
New Hampshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I have written about this before, but it needs repeating. Let's go back to the "last supper", i.e., the Passover meal that Jesus shared with His disciples. They are reclining at the table and Jesus, in the flesh, i.e., alive, passes around the bread and wine and tells them to repeat this tradition to remember Him when He is no longer with them. How can the bread and wine actually be Jesus' body and blood when He is alive, at the table, passing the bread and wine? It is absurd to think that somehow, at a later date, the food and drink that Jesus passed around, actually becomes Him.

And I've presented an alternative view to that "absurdity," in #829. But reasonable minds can differ on this, I suppose.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To all those out there with a grudge against the Church, especially to the media, let me say this. I want you to attack the Church with everything you have. I want you to expose every skeleton, in every closet, of every Bishop, Priest, and Brother or Sister you can find. I want you to probe and penetrate, search and investigate, inquire and interrogate. Leave no stone unturned. Bring your experts on television, tell us your opinion, and make your predictions. Tell us in the strongest terms you can just how weak, how immoral, how stupid, cruel, cold and callous the leaders of the Catholic Church really are. I only ask that you tell the truth. Tell just enough truth, in just the right way, to make life in the Church appear solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. Keep pointing your finger and cry bad, bad, bad until you run out of breath. I want you to use all your influence, howsoever much it might be, to persuade as many minds as you can that the Church is full of hypocrites, liars, cowards. Try to prove that all of us must finally come to agree with you that the Church is really nothing special. I even want you to talk with Catholic theologians who will agree with you, and demand that the Church must change, change, change, change! Let us hear how out of touch with reality the leadership is, let us hear how snotty, how arrogant, how aloof they are, how blah, blah, blah I want you to keep asking why the Church has not hired any P.R. firms to help maintain its image and credibility like the Mormon Church and Jehovah Witnesses do. Then I want you to turn around and blame the Bishops for only caring for the Church‚s image and credibility. Keep making these sorts of observations please, I urge you. Do not hold back. Your chains have been unloosed for a short while. Give us your best shot.

Oh how I relish these days! So many people at once thinking about the Catholic Church. To all those out there who are paying attention to the Church, to all the men and women of good will, let me say this. The claim we make now, always have made, and always will make is that the Church comes from the Apostles, the Apostles come from Christ, and Christ comes from God. My theology comes from above. The Catholic Church is established by God to communicate the truth about God, man, and the world to all people in every nation under heaven. She is endowed by God with all the power She needs to teach the truth and to perpetuate the mission of Jesus Christ in the world. Perhaps the word power frightens you. Perhaps you fear the Church is trying to impose Her opinions upon you. But before you fear, look at a crucifix and ask yourself whether that looks like a man trying to impose upon on you.

To all of you out there who are willing to think the matter through with me, I say that the argument is always the same. Either the Church originates from God or the Church originates from men. Now, if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God. (Acts 5:38-9) That is why I want the attack to be severe. The more the wretchedness of Catholic leaders is brought to light the better. For if the Church is of God, then even the most furious attack upon it, even the most evident dirty truth about Her leaders -- no matter what its magnitude, no matter what its duration, no matter what its degree of intensity -- all of the efforts of those who would destroy the Church will come to naught. All the power and the influence of the media, the secularists, the skeptics, the Catholic bashers and the bigots, all of it will come to nothing, even though we ourselves hand them ammunition so damaging that they could ask for none better.

That is why I relish these days, for in these days the invincible stability of the Church is shining brightly. The evil, both within the Church and without, only shows that God is with us, that it is God Himself who stabilizes the Catholic Church. It is God who vouches for Her message. It is God who is telling the story that the Church is constantly telling about Herself. The Church is not merely the product of man.

What shall all you gleeful opponents of the Church say in reply? If you say that the Church is from men, that it is just one more social institution among others, then you are forced to defend the manifestly ridiculous proposition that it is Bishops and Priests who have held the Church together for thousands of years. Don't make me laugh. What shall you say? Shall you say instead that it is the laity who hold the Church together? Catholic laity are hardly known for their widespread and fervent enthusiasm. American Catholics these days indulge in their designer spouses all fixed up on their diaphragms and pills just as much as the rest of the world does. American Catholics so completely bought into the 60’s that we should expect to see the Church going the way of the 60’s. Why is it not? Why does the Church still teach that men should not sleep with men, nor women sleep with women, nor should women and men sleep with each other unless the other person is ones only living spouse and not semi-rejected with contraception?

Don’t bother saying the Church will change these teachings as soon as Pope Francis dies. When he dies, he will be stronger and more influential than ever.
Perhaps the best you opponents of the Church can do to explain why the Church is so invincibly stable is to pull out your old-fashioned rationalism. All you can say is that what keeps the Church going is simply that the Church provides a fairy tale to fill people‚s deepest emotional and psychological needs for personal meaning and comfort. But now you have passed from the ridiculous to the absurd. You are telling me that, despite all the hostile forces against it, despite all the obstacles in its path, and despite all the wickedness, wretchedness, ineptitude and imbecility in her own members, the reason why the world‚s oldest and largest institution has been perpetuated is just because Catholics have a great fairy tale to comfort them? Your explanation boils down to the claim that the Catholic Church has grown and survived, and become all that it is, just because Catholics are irrational. From your explanation, it follows that irrationality is more successful in the long run. If that is so, then why should I be what you call rational?

If irrationality is better in the long run, then what must we say of your god Rationalism? Rationalism has not smiled very brightly on the societies you organized in its name. For where are your rationally organized societies now? They are long dead, recently dead, or currently dying. It seems that your god Rationalism is good for nothing. The twilight of that idol has been upon us for some time now.

Any man who denies that the Church is from God must attribute to Catholics a certain sort of excellence that we would not dare attribute to ourselves. He must attribute to us the capacity to perpetuate our message and way of life for millennia, to spread it all over the world to people of every language and culture, and to get over a billion people to get down on their knees and say to a fictitious God, “Thy will be done”, all without any help from above, without any divine assistance, and without any grace from a real God. Do you realize what you have said if you attribute that sort of excellence to us? You have said that Catholics are “uebermenschen”: people who live, and move, and act far above the ordinary run of their fellows. You have said that we are a superior race of people, for ours is a two thousand year Reich, two thousand years and counting. Make no mistake. I do not say that we are uebermenschen. You do.

For it is you who deny that the Church is from above, it is you who deny that it is God who perpetuates the Church, it is you who deny that we are being taught by God, and so it is you who must affirm that we have achieved it all by our own natural talents. How ridiculous for you to say that we are all that.

The "Church" -- why the capitalization? -- is not the Catholic denomination. The church is the body of Christ, i.e., all believers. The absurd arrogance of Catholics to think that they alone are the church is nothing but extraBiblical arrogance.

There is no mention -- zero! -- of the Catholic denomination in the Bible. It is the invention of men who like to think of themselves as the source of all truth. Instead of focusing on the essence of the New Testament -- Jesus Christ, salvation, and eternal life -- they focus on such nonsense as "ever-virgin" Mary and Peter being the foundation of the church. They have created an unScriptual hierarchy of the Pope, Cardinals, etc., rituals and pomp resembling the rituals and pomp of the Old Testament, ornate cathedrals built from donations coerced from their duped flock, and worst of all, depict the resurrected Christ as still on the cross. They have established an empire in Rome that Caesar would lust after, declaring that they alone are the one true church, while their history of atrocities of murder, excommunications, and pedophilia speaks for itself. Finally, even though Jesus shared the bread and wine with Judas, they deny the bread and wine to anyone who isn't Catholic.

Their rituals, doctrine, history, and behavior speak volumes about what is actually the true body of Christ and what clearly is not.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you dense? Why aren't you getting this, lol?

Differences stem from the fact that not everybody who claims to belong the body of Christ have the Holy Spirit in them in salvation to be able to discern truth from error (Jude 1:19), and, among those who do have the Spirit we're all growing up into the knowledge of Christ and are at different stages of growth (Ephesians 4:13). It's a process. Good grief, man. Start paying attention! And, furthermore, there are subjects that the Bible does not talk about, or leaves room for honest and legitimate debate. Read Romans 14 in its entirety if you don't know that, which you apparently do not.
Good grief - this is the ENTIRE point, Einstein.

TENS OF THOUSANDS of perpetually-splintering factions. - and you don't see the problem with this? Maybe THIS will jar something in that jead of yourss:
John 17:20-23
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be ONE, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be ONE even as we are ONE, I in them and you in me, that they may become PERFECTLY ONE, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

Jesus prayed for the UNITY of His Body – NOT the perpetual splintering of it.
As Paul wrote:
1 Cor. 1:10-13
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

That list I gave you back in post #926 lists some ESSENTIAL teachings – and some things that are NOT negotiable.
Yet YOU can sit there and talk to me about the “unity of all believers”.

What an asinine proposition . . .
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Good grief - this is the ENTIRE point, Einstein.

TENS OF THOUSANDS of perpetually-splintering factions. - and you don't see the problem with this? Maybe THIS will jar something in that jead of yourss:
John 17:20-23
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be ONE, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be ONE even as we are ONE, I in them and you in me, that they may become PERFECTLY ONE, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

Jesus prayed for the UNITY of His Body – NOT the perpetual splintering of it.
As Paul wrote:
1 Cor. 1:10-13
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

That list I gave you back in post #926 lists some ESSENTIAL teachings – and some things that are NOT negotiable.
Yet YOU can sit there and talk to me about the “unity of all believers”.

What an asinine proposition . . .

This is the philosophy of every dictator throughout history! I AM RIGHT. ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME IS A LIAR.

 

Ferris Bueller

Well-Known Member
Sep 9, 2020
9,979
4,552
113
Middle South
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Good grief - this is the ENTIRE point, Einstein.

TENS OF THOUSANDS of perpetually-splintering factions. - and you don't see the problem with this? Maybe THIS will jar something in that jead of yourss:
John 17:20-23
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be ONE, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be ONE even as we are ONE, I in them and you in me, that they may become PERFECTLY ONE, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

Jesus prayed for the UNITY of His Body – NOT the perpetual splintering of it.
As Paul wrote:
1 Cor. 1:10-13
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

That list I gave you back in post #926 lists some ESSENTIAL teachings – and some things that are NOT negotiable.
Yet YOU can sit there and talk to me about the “unity of all believers”.

What an asinine proposition . . .
Stop being a moron, lol! I gave you the Biblical reasons why factions exist among the people of God. Your Catholic denomination is no different than other denominations that set up official creeds to keep their particular faction unified and safe from the Biblical things I listed that divide the brethren outwardly.

Spiritually speaking, there is absolute perfect unity of born again believers by virtue of the indwelling Spirit. You can't get any more unified than that. And that's what Jesus was talking about in John 17. But outwardly, the church has tares sown in among the wheat. Assuming the Catholic church does have some true believers in it (and I think there are some) you aren't exempt from having weeds among you, too. You aren't exempt from this Biblical truth. But honestly, the opposite is true for Catholics and, frankly, most non-Catholic congregations - the wheat is sown in among the weeds. The wheat stalks being in far fewer numbers than the weeds that surround them. That's just where we're at in the timeline of human history. To use another analogy, the leaven has almost worked it's way all through the batch of dough.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jim B

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,977
3,418
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If he meant what Catholics say he meant you would indeed be eating real actual human flesh and drinking real actual blood at Communion. But as any honest person has to admit that's wine in that cup, not blood, and that's bread your eating, not human flesh. You're in Lala land, lost in the Catholic delusion if you think you're eating actual, real human blood and flesh. You are not. Simply looking at and tasting the elements proves that they are not real human blood and flesh.
As I told you before - Jesus ISN'T an idiot - even if YOU think He is.

He gave us the SACRAMENTAL presctioption of bread and wine that becomes His body and blood.
If He wanted the Apostles to perpetuate the Eucharistic celebratioon by taking a bite our of His arm - it would have onlt lasted a couple of days before there was nothing left.
That's a leap of stupidity to say the wine and bread, that you can taste and see are wine and bread not flesh and blood, is somehow real actual human flesh and blood. And if Jesus did say it is cotton candy, or would become cotton candy, IT REALLY WOULD BE COTTON CANDY, NOT WINE AND BREAD!
Yes, I believe that. If there were no "planets, stars, galaxies and solar systems" in existence then I would have no basis to believe, by faith, that God did that. And so it is with your wine and bread. Until it really does become actual human blood and flesh we have no choice but to conclude that what Catholics say Jesus said about it being real human blood and real human flesh is SIMPLY NOT TRUE. It's obviously figurative. At least we have a created universe that actually exists to back up God's claim that he created them and spoke them into existence. But your Catholic belief about transubstantiation? Not an ounce of evidence exists to show that you're eating actual real human blood and flesh. It simply doesn't happen! Any moron can see that!
I believe in the Communion elements FOR WHAT THEY ACTUALLY MEAN, not what a Catholic delusional myth says they mean.
Your complete disdain for the Eucharoist speaks VOLUMES about your lack of faith.

Not an "ounce" of evidence?? Do YOU have an an "ounce" of evidence that Gos merely SPOKE and the Universe leapt into existence?
That took a LEAP OF FAITH on your part based on Gen. 1:1-25 - that you're NOT willing to take based on the woprds of Christ in Matt. 26:26–28, Luke 22:19–20, Mark 14:22–24, John 6:22-71 abd 1 Cor. 11:23–25.

And it's NOT what "we "Catholics say" about His Body and Blood thatshould worry you.
It's what JESUS Himmself said that you are rejecting.