Why do Catholics…

[Illuminator]

@Rita THIS THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY "BIBLE CHRISTIAN" HATE CULTS, AND SHOUD BE CLOSED.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

For what you think that means, been there done that. That happened the day I was born again by the Spirit.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY "BIBLE CHRISTIAN" HATE CULTS, AND SHOUD BE CLOSED.

Yes! We hate cults!
Once you experience the true life of the Spirit you recognize what the church of the world and it's cults are all about. And you'll never go back.

 

[Taken]

God didn't reveal how the Son was begotten, and we don't need to know the mechanics.

Sure we were told HOW and WHEN the Word of God was Sent to Earth and WHEN the Son of God was Begotten.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If there is no power in the sacraments, if the POWER of the Holy Spirit is not active in Baptism... Why bother?

Because Communion and water baptism serve a purpose other than establishing a born again relationship with God.

 

[Philip James]

If they are still bread and the wine then they can't be the actual blood and body of Christ

Indeed, hence transubstantiation.. They are not bread and wine..

Here's some Justin Martyr:

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html

(Chapter 66)

This was written circa 150 AD..

All the 2000 year old apostolic communities that I know of are witnesses to this Truth.

Where is the 2000 year old apostolic community that says otherwise?

'every planting not of My Father will be uprooted'

Pax et Bonum

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Indeed, hence transubstantiation.. They are not bread and wine..

Here's some Justin Martyr:

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html

(Chapter 66)

This was written circa 150 AD..

All the 2000 year old apostolic communities that I know of are witnesses to this Truth.

Where is the 2000 year old apostolic community that says otherwise?

'every planting not of My Father will be uprooted'

Pax et Bonum

I don't care what Justin Martyr said. When you stare down into the cup of wine and at the bread, that's exactly what it is! Nothing more! It hasn't been changed into anything. You're deluded if you think it's anything other than the bread and the wine that it is. It's a Passover observance. It SYMOBOLIZES the reality of Christ's blood and body. Just as it did in the old covenant.

 

[Philip James]

Because Communion and water baptism serve a purpose other than establishing a born again relationship with God.

You chastise us for 'cold dead services' yet promote powerless ritual.. The very thing Paul is warning against!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

I don't care what Justin Martyr said. When you stare down into the cup of wine and at the bread, that's exactly what it is! Nothing more! It hasn't been changed into anything

Your lack of faith in Jesus' words is appalling.

Your apathy towards what your brothers and sisters have believed taught and died for, for 2000 years almost as appalling.

Martyrs of St. Francis of Owo,
Pray for us!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Your lack of faith in Jesus' words is appalling.

Your apathy towards what your brothers and sisters have believed taught and died for, for 2000 years almost as appalling.

Martyrs of St. Francis of Owo,
Pray for us!

I don't give a crap about what Justin Martyr said.
The gentiles who took over the church after the apostles RUINED the church. I know what is real and I know it by the experience of the Holy Spirit that came into me the moment I received the gospel.
I'm done with cold dead religion. It led me no where. Even when I wanted to get saved I realized the church couldn't help me. It took a non-denominational ministry that knew the truth about salvation and the Holy Spirit to lead me to salvation and life in the Spirit that Jesus died to give his people. I pray that YOU find that same truth and freedom in the Spirit and are set free from the delusion of your cold dead, regimented religion.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You chastise us for 'cold dead services' yet promote powerless ritual.. The very thing Paul is warning against!

Pax et Bonum

Not 'having church' the way you say is the one and only way that God approves is NOT lawlessness. You are no different than all the other churches of the world that think pleasing God is knowing and practicing the one and only approved way to hold a church service. You're all lost. You've missed it. That's not what life in Christ is all about. Not even close.

 

[Illuminator]

I don't care what Justin Martyr said.

Obviously.
St. Justin Martyr, laid out one of the earliest descriptions of the Mass in his First Apology, written between 153 and 155 A.D. It’s great, because it offers a simplified version of Catholic theology intended for those who had no idea what a “bishop” was, or even what “Amen” meant. It’s like stumbling upon a children’s Sunday school class from the 2nd century.

The First Apology is great for other reasons, as well: he’s able to point to specific Roman sects which mimic Catholic practices, like the followers of Mithras mimicking the Eucharist. In modern times, some skeptics have compared the worship of Christ in the Eucharist to the cult of Mithras in an attempt to disprove Christianity, as if we stole it from them. So it’s great to have Justin, writing to the Roman pagans, setting the record clear as to just who stole what from whom.

So here’s Justin on the Eucharist, first from chapter 65, Administration of the Sacraments:

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.

And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to ge’noito [so be it].

And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.​

It’s worth noting several things in this description:

First, the Kiss of Peace isn’t some new invention of the American Church to make everybody feel wonderful inside: it’s a long-standing Catholic tradition.

Next, the Eucharist is only open to the baptized individual “who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching.”

The Eucharist consists of bread and wine, mixed with a bit of water. This is a practice done (to my knowledge) only in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.

Also, the Eucharist is brought to the absent. This seems like a minor detail, but it invalidates the Lutheran Church’s Eucharistic views, where the blessed bread and wine are incarnated in some sense with Christ during the duration of the service, and not afterwards.

All of this very much mirrors the modern Mass: Prayers of the Faithful, the Sign of Peace, the Eucharistic prayers over the bread and wine mixed with water, and the Great Amen.

However, Justin says “deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced.” At first, this sounds like he’s denying the Real Presence. But then you get into the nitty-gritty of the Greek, where thanksgiving means Eucharist. So he’s literally saying “deacons give to each of those present to partake of the ‘Eucharitized’ bread and wine mixed with water.”

He makes it more clear in the next chapter, which picks up immediately where that last quote left off:

“And this food is called among us Eucharistia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” – (First Apology, 66)
​

So Justin is clear “that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word […] is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. ” The “prayer of His word” refers to the words of institution, which come from Jesus’ lips at the Last Supper. So after the words of institution, the bread and wine become the flesh and blood of “that Jesus.”

The phrase “from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished” is sometimes rendered, “in order to nourish and transform our flesh and blood,” and the Greek here (kata metabolen) means something very similar to “metabolize.” So just as with physical food, it becomes part of our bodies, through the spiritual food of the Eucharist, we become part of Christ’s. We eat Him, but rather than us metabolizing Him, He “metabolizes” us.

I really enjoy this part of the First Apology not just because it’s fascinating how constant the Mass has remained over the last two millennia, but because I really like Justin’s insight into the Eucharist, and the idea of Christ “metabolizing” us.

St. Justin Martyr on the Eucharist and the Ancient Mass - Word on Fire

 

[BreadOfLife]

Don't you know Paul was talking about the old covenant ceremonial foods? And don't you know the bread and the wine observance is a Passover observance? Those things don't have any power. Just as they did not have any power in the old covenant. The power is in the actual sacrifice of Christ on the altar in heaven, not in the old covenant symbols and types of Christ here on earth, which the Bread and the wine are. They are commemorative symbols of the reality in heaven, not the reality itself. You're still approaching God through the symbols of the old covenant in a religion of endlessly repetitious lifeless, worthless, outward ceremonial rituals that you think give you eternal life. That is the very essence of the works gospel condemned in scripture, and you are oblivious to that fact.

Not only DID I know – I explained this to you in my LAST post.
I suggest you READ is again . . .

As for the bread and wine that Jesus used to institute the Eucharist – it DOES have “Passover” implications. Jesus is the Paschal Lamb – and death passes over those who are in Him. Just ;like everything ELSE having to do with Jesus - it’s the FULFILLMENT of the original Passover feast. Paul explains how ALL of these things were simply SHADOWS of what was to come – and that Jesus is the REALITY (Col. 2:16-17).

The things that YOU believe – or DON’T believe about the Eucharist were NEVER taught in the historic Christian faith for 1500 years. The BULK of your Protestant Fathers believed in the Real Presence. YOUR rejection of this doctrine is relatively NEW in history . . .

I guess I'm supposed to be...uh...what...hurt by this, lol?

Nope. I was just marveling at the comparison.
Pagan Rom thought exactly the same thing that YOU do about the Real Presence.
That ALONE should be a red flag . . .

But by your own admission the elements aren't the actual blood and body of Christ(???). So you don't have eternal life in you either. But somehow you're partaking of the actual blood and body of Christ without actually partaking of the actual body and blood of Christ and so you have eternal life by them. What contradictory nonsense!

Actually – I never said that.
I said that they aren’t actual blood and tissue off of the bone – but they are substantively transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ – because HE said so.
He COULD have stated – in SEVERAL different ways, that this was merely symbolic:
“This bread is a SYMBOL of my body.” “This cup REPRESENTS my blood.”
But these aren’t the words he used, ARE they?

Frankly, I'm glad you Catholics are here so the rest of us who have lived our whole lives separated from the lunacy of the Catholic religion can see just how truly absurd and strange your beliefs are. For I admit before I got into in depth discussions with Catholics I really just regarded you folks as just having differing views of essentially the same faith. Ha! Not even close. More Protestants need to see how absurd and off the rails your religion actually is. Please keep informing Protestants about what you really believe and practice in your religion. Everyone needs to see the full extent of your strange and unBiblical beliefs and practices. You're your own worst enemy!

Spoken as a person who doesn’t have a CLUE what the historic Christian Church believed, taught and practiced for 1500 years PRIOR to the first rejection of Eucharistic teaching.

As I stated before – the fact that you agree with Pagan Rome on this subject should send CHILLS down your back.

When did you all abandon the beliefs of your Protestant Fathers – MOST of whom held to:
- Infant Baptism
- Marian doctrines
- The Eucharist
- Confession
It’s NOT surprising when I see this kind of PERPETUAL splintering – but it’s always a little sad . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

If they are still bread and the wine then they can't be the actual blood and body of Christ. Good grief, man, what a Catholic delusion! You people are deluded!

No – we believe in Christ.
We believe what He claims.

Do YOU believe that God spoke and the Universe leapt into existence? That’s a pretty WILD claim that cannot be proven. It takes a leap of faith – NOT reason.

Like I said before – the Real Presence takes a leap of faith that MOST Protestants aren’t willing to make – even though MOST your Protestant Fathers DID.

WHY is that? These were pretty brilliant men for the most port.
Are you “smarter” than they were? Or are you simply puffed up with spiritual pride?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't give a crap about what Justin Martyr said.
The gentiles who took over the church after the apostles RUINED the church. I know what is real and I know it by the experience of the Holy Spirit that came into me the moment I received the gospel.
I'm done with cold dead religion. It led me no where. Even when I wanted to get saved I realized the church couldn't help me. It took a non-denominational ministry that knew the truth about salvation and the Holy Spirit to lead me to salvation and life in the Spirit that Jesus died to give his people. I pray that YOU find that same truth and freedom in the Spirit and are set free from the delusion of your cold dead, regimented religion.

Soooo – if my “non-denominational” next-door neighbor believes differently than YOU –
WHICH one of you is right?
WHICH one of you was “led” by the Holy Spirit when you are BOTH spouting off unbiblical teachings?
MOST of the posters on THIS form believe in different thing about Jesus. Are YOU saying that YOU are right and everybody else here is wrong?
WHICH of you was “led” by the Holy spirit.
Is he the God of Confusion?

Jesus gave His CHURCH supreme earthly Authority – NOT each individual follower.
He guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide His CHURCH to ALL Truth, corporately.
He didn’t make this guaranteed about each individual.

Ten of thousands of perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines by men who CLAIM to have been ‘led” to this confusion by the Holy Spirit is AMPLE evidence of this . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Soooo – if my “non-denominational” next-door neighbor believes differently than YOU –
WHICH one of you is right?
WHICH one of you was “led” by the Holy Spirit when you are BOTH spouting off unbiblical teachings?

Well, duh, if we're both spouting off unBiblical teachings then we're both wrong. I'm guessing you meant to frame the question that way.

MOST of the posters on THIS form believe in different thing about Jesus. Are YOU saying that YOU are right and everybody else here is wrong?

Most of us agree on the fundamental truth of justification/salvation by faith in the blood without the aid of works. As long as a person believes that they are born again and belong to the body of Christ, the church, along with us. The rest is a matter of growing up into the image and knowledge of Christ. Non-Catholics are more unified than you think.

Jesus gave His CHURCH supreme earthly Authority – NOT each individual follower.

First off, the church IS each individual follower, not just those with spiritual gifts of leadership. And, of course, we know not every individual has authority in the church:

"11And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers" Ephesians 4:11

"12...acknowledge those who work diligently among you, who preside over you in the Lord and give you instruction." 1 Timothy 5:12​

What each of us does have individually is the Spirit of discernment to ultimately know if those who claim to be in authority over us really are, and if what they teach is really the truth. The Bible is very clear about this.

He guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide His CHURCH to ALL Truth, corporately.
He didn’t make this guaranteed about each individual.

Every individual true believer will in fact be led into all truth. The Holy Spirit tells every true believer what is true and what is not. It's a growth process. It's those masquerading as true believers who do not have the Spirit that do not grow up into the truth.

Ten of thousands of perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines by men who CLAIM to have been ‘led” to this confusion by the Holy Spirit is AMPLE evidence of this .

Non-Catholics are no different than Catholics in that we have people who don't have the Spirit, too. Besides the fact that individual believers are all at different stages of knowledge and revelation it's just a given that where the true church of real believers are there will be tares among them. They are the one's that refuse to acknowledge the truth and persist in lies.

" 18...“In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.”e 19These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit." 1 Jude 1:18-19​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Do YOU believe that God spoke and the Universe leapt into existence? That’s a pretty WILD claim that cannot be proven. It takes a leap of faith – NOT reason.

What's so hard about staring at the elements and seeing that they are wine and bread and not blood and flesh? If Jesus literally meant 'real' flesh and blood you'd have 'real' blood and flesh at Communion. But as we can all plainly see for ourselves it isn't that way.

The elements are 'real' in that they give life, just like a loaf of bread gives life.

 

[Brakelite]

Sure we were told HOW and WHEN the Word of God was Sent to Earth and WHEN the Son of God was Begotten.

Yes. But we aren't informed when the Son was begotten before creation. Nor how. We accept it by faith. Scripture says 'God sent His Son..." John 3:17. We accept it by faith, trusting in God's word, that of God sent His only begotten Son, then He had a Son to send.

 

[Brakelite]

@Rita THIS THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY "BIBLE CHRISTIAN" HATE CULTS, AND SHOUD BE CLOSED.

God forbid that we should allow hate cults the freedom of speech that we award ourselves right? Cancel them!!! Cancel them all I say!!!!!

 

[Taken]

Soooo – if my “non-denominational” next-door neighbor believes differently than YOU –
WHICH one of you is right?

Having a denominational name is irrelevant.
The Rock Foundation Belief of Christ’s Church is;
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

WHICH one of you was “led” by the Holy Spirit when you are BOTH spouting off unbiblical teachings?

The Scriptures leads an individual to the Truth.
The Holy Spirit leads an individual to the Understanding of the Truth.
Philosophies of men leads individuals to unbiblical/ nonScriptural/ teachings.

MOST of the posters on THIS form believe in different thing about Jesus.

Patently False.

Are YOU saying that YOU are right and everybody else here is wrong?

LOL...No one has claimed to KNOW everybody’s belief to make such a foolish comment.

Which

of you was “led” by the Holy spirit.

The individual who Heartfully Believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God on the day he DIES.....he SHALL BE SAVED

ADDITIONALLY IF THAT individual:
has Heartfully Confessed he Believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God,
AND THAT individual:
has Repented for having NOT BELIEVED Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
AND THAT individual:
Willingly lays down his own life Crucified with Jesus, THAT DAY, that individual IS SAVED.

Shall be SAVED, is SAVED; BOTH are being lead by the Holy Spirit.
Shall be SAVED, can also be lead by the Philosophies of men.

Is he the God of Confusion?

No, Gods Word is CLEAR:
The SAVED, are lead by the “indwelling” Holy Spirit.
The SHALL BE SAVED, can be lead by the Holy Spirit “WITH” them;
OR go astray to the Philosophies of men.

God does NOT perpetuate Confusion...men do.
...Your Catholic Church clerics for centuries have perpetuated confusion.

Jesus gave His CHURCH supreme earthly Authority – NOT each individual follower.

First of all, Yes Christ Jesus’ Church IS HIS CHURCH. The highlight being “HIS”...not church.

The Authority given HIS church IS to SPEAK HIS Word.
To SPEAK HIS Word is the authority of EVERY MEMBER of HIS church.

He guaranteed that the Holy Spirit would guide His CHURCH to ALL Truth, corporately.

Again, the highlight is “HIS”, not church.
Member of “HIS” church, ‘HAVE’ the indwelling Holy Spirit, guiding every individual member of “HIS” church.

He didn’t make this guaranteed about each individual.

That is your philosophical learning of men, NOT Christ Jesus.
Christ Jesus’ Church IS Precisely men HAVING the “HOLY SPIRIT WITH AND IN them”.
Their TITLE IS they ARE Christ’s CHURCH.
Yes EACH individual DOES have the Authority to SPEAK Gods Word!

Ten of thousands of perpetually-splintering sects that ALL teach different doctrines by men who CLAIM to have been ‘led” to this confusion by the Holy Spirit is AMPLE evidence of this . . .

LOL...your old and boring claims are still old and boring.

The FOUNDATION of ANY man built establish Church that IS founded ON the Rock Foundation THAT:
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, IS established AS Christ’s Church.

* Not rocket science for an individual to OPEN THEIR EARS and HEAR IF that Church’s “Cleric’s, Preachers, Teachers” Preach and Teach;
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.......OR NOT!

* Not rocket science for an individual to OPEN THEIR BIBLE and VERIFY what “cleric’s, preachers, teachers” preach and teach, is True....OR NOT.

Your pretense that the catholic church (built upon Peter), and all it’s ‘sects’ you call ‘rites” have a MONOPOLY on Christ’s Church, is corrupt and laughable on it’s face.