Why do Catholics…

[Taken]

@Rita THIS THREAD HAS BEEN HIJACKED BY "BIBLE CHRISTIAN" HATE CULTS, AND SHOUD BE CLOSED.

Making wild claims are simply opinions.

If you open your ears, it is Catholics having the issue with reliance on the Bible.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Like I said before – the Real Presence takes a leap of faith that MOST Protestants aren’t willing to make – even though MOST your Protestant Fathers DID.

WHY is that? These were pretty brilliant men for the most port.
Are you “smarter” than they were? Or are you simply puffed up with spiritual pride?

“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." Matthew 11:25
​

Jesus didn't speak too highly of 'brilliant' men. We are not to be led astray and deceived by them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Spoken as a person who doesn’t have a CLUE what the historic Christian Church believed, taught and practiced for 1500 years PRIOR to the first rejection of Eucharistic teaching.

How is having fallen away from the truth so quickly, and being the first to do so, somehow a sign of truth???? I'll have to put that in the same category as 'brilliance = truth'.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I was just marveling at the comparison.
Pagan Rom thought exactly the same thing that YOU do about the Real Presence.
That ALONE should be a red flag . . .

Well, when your wine and bread become actual blood and tissue let me know.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Paul explains how ALL of these things were simply SHADOWS of what was to come – and that Jesus is the REALITY (Col. 2:16-17).

Listen to your own words about the Passover elements - "these things were simply SHADOWS".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I said that they aren’t actual blood and tissue off of the bone – but they are substantively transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ – because HE said so.

So they aren't real flesh and blood, yet they're real flesh and blood. How did you fall for this crap?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As I stated before – the fact that you agree with Pagan Rome on this subject should send CHILLS down your back.

Yes, I'm shaking in my boots, lol.
It's not real, but it's real. What a pathetic joke. How do people get mislead by this junk, lol?
When it literally turns into the real blood and body of Christ let me know (John 6:55).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

When did you all abandon the beliefs of your Protestant Fathers – MOST of whom held to:

Maybe it had to do with many of them being declared heretics? Lunatics might be a better word. I get a kick out of the diatribe about women from one of your so-called 'brilliant' church fathers. He ain't no father of my church, the body of Christ!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Nope. I was just marveling at the comparison.
Pagan Rom thought exactly the same thing that YOU do about the Real Presence.
That ALONE should be a red flag . . .

No. When you said 'brilliant'...that's when the red flag went up. I'm just a babe who knows what the Bible says about so-called 'brilliant' men.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So here’s Justin on the Eucharist, first from chapter 65, Administration of the Sacraments:

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation.

Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands.

And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to ge’noito [so be it].

And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

This is exactly why I resent Justin Martyr. He, solely, may be responsible for leading the church down the path of cold, dead, empty, regimented 'religion'. Even the Protestants are poisoned by this curse of cold, dead 'religion'. I think of this often when I consider how far removed even we non-Catholics are from meeting in the style of 1 Corinthians 14:26-31 that Paul taught. Does the Catholic church not know about that passage, or have they just decided they aren't going to listen to Apostle Paul?

 

[Illuminator]

Your pretense that the catholic church (built upon Peter), and all it’s ‘sects’ you call ‘rites” have a MONOPOLY on Christ’s Church, is corrupt and laughable on it’s face.

The Catholic Church is not your enemy. But you won't have it any other way.

 

[Illuminator]

This is exactly why I resent Justin Martyr. He, solely, may be responsible for leading the church down the path of cold, dead, empty, regimented 'religion'. Even the Protestants are poisoned by this curse of cold, dead 'religion'. I think of this often when I consider how far removed even we non-Catholics are from meeting in the style of 1 Corinthians 14:26-31 that Paul taught. Does the Catholic church not know about that passage, or have they just decided they aren't going to listen to Apostle Paul?

You make it perfectly clear. You have nothing to do with the Church of 100 A.D. You have no roots.

Justin Martyr (ca. 100-165 AD) is considered by many to be the first great apologist of the Christian church. The apostle Paul is surely a better candidate for that distinction. But Paul was an inspired author of Scripture. This is not true of any of the other great Christian apologists. And Justin apparently was the first of these. Certainly, he is the first whose writings have survived and are available in English translation.

Justin is mentioned with admiration by many of the ancients. Tatian, his pupil (according to Irenaeus), was fond of Justin. We learn from Tertullian that he was martyred for his advocacy for Christianity. Eusebius of Caesarea, the first church historian, who was himself an apologist, has much to say about Justin.

We have an account of Justin’s conversion in chapters 7 and 8 of his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew. What he recounts sounds like the story of a stranger’s witness to the truth of Christianity by various evidences and the stranger’s persuasion of an open-minded philosopher—namely, Justin—by these evidences. With the word of the stranger’s testimony, says Justin, “my spirit was immediately set on fire.”

Justin’s meditations, in addition to further study, led him to conclude that Christ had revealed “the only sure and useful philosophy.” Though the authenticity of this account is uncertain, Justin’s zeal for Christ and perseverance in defense of the faith are incontestable. Chapter 2 in the Second Apology reflects a debt to the faithful testimony of other Christians in his movement from Platonism to Christian belief (see also Second Apology, chapter 12).

His chief works in Christian apologetics include Dialogue with Trypho the Jew; First Apology; and, Second Apology. There is much that is admirable and worthy of fresh consideration in all of his writings. As to the first, the following understatement, from The Oxford Classical Dictionary, very nearly says it all: “He seems never to have been attracted to Judaism.”

Here are a few nuggets from Justin’s First Apology:

Criteria for Rational Belief

Early in his First Apology, Justin set forth a controlling principle, which we today might call a basic intellectual virtue.

"Reason dictates that those who are truly pious and philosophical should honor and love only the truth, declining to follow opinions of the ancients, if they are worthless.” (chapter 2)
He invited scrutiny of the evidence and did not expect an irrationalist response to Christian preaching. And he urged his audience to weigh the evidence and resist any temptation to accept what is less reasonable because it is more palatable.
Justin Martyr: The First Great Apologist of the Christian Church

This is exactly why I resent Justin Martyr. He, solely, may be responsible for leading the church down the path of cold, dead, empty, regimented 'religion'.

 

[Illuminator]

“For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.”
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 121 (A.D. 155).

Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove.”
Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).

It may have been his debate with a Cynic philosopher which sealed his fate and helped to secure him the name "Martyr". Justin won the debate and angered his interlocutors. He was soon denounced for being a Christian and arrested by the authorities, along with several of his companions. The Office of Readings in the Liturgy of the Hours on the Feast contains the following historic account of his Martyrdom:

***** I have accepted the true doctrines of the Christians: From the Acts of the martyrdom of Saint Justin and his companion saints The saints were seized and brought before the prefect of Rome, whose name was Rusticus. As they stood before the judgment seat, Rusticus the prefect said to Justin: "Above all, have faith in the gods and obey the emperors." Justin said: "We cannot be accused or condemned for obeying the commands of our Savior, Jesus Christ."

Rusticus said: "What system of teaching do you profess?" Justin said: "I have tried to learn about every system, but I have accepted the true doctrines of the Christians, though these are not approved by those who are held fast by error."

The prefect Rusticus said: "Are those doctrines approved by you, wretch that you are?" Justin said: "Yes, for I follow them with their correct teaching."

The prefect Rusticus said: "What sort of teaching is that?" Justin said: "Worship the God of the Christians. We hold him to be from the beginning the one creator and maker of the whole creation, of things seen and things unseen. We worship also the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He was foretold by the prophets as the future herald of salvation for the human race and the teacher of distinguished disciples. "For myself, since I am a human being, I consider that what I say is insignificant in comparison with his infinite godhead. I acknowledge the existence of a prophetic power, for the one I have just spoken of as the Son of God was the subject of prophecy. I know that the prophets were inspired from above when they spoke of his coming among men."

Rusticus said: "You are a Christian, then?" Justin said: "Yes, I am a Christian."

The prefect said to Justin: "You are called a learned man and think that you know what is true teaching. Listen: if you were scourged and beheaded, are you convinced that you would go up to heaven?" Justin said: "I hope that I shall enter God's house if I suffer that way. For I know that God's favor is stored up until the end of the whole world for all who have lived good lives."

The prefect Rusticus said: "Do you have an idea that you will go up to heaven to receive some suitable rewards?" Justin said: "It is not an idea that I have; it is something I know well and hold to be most certain."

The prefect Rusticus said: "Now let us come to the point at issue, which is necessary and urgent. Gather round then and with one accord offer sacrifice to the gods." Justin said: "No one who is right thinking stoops from true worship to false worship."

The prefect Rusticus said: "If you do not do as you are commanded you will be tortured without mercy." Justin said: "We hope to suffer torment for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ, and so be saved. For this will bring us salvation and confidence as we stand before the more terrible and universal judgment-seat of our Lord and Savior."

In the same way the other martyrs also said: "Do what you will. We are Christians; we do not offer sacrifice to idols."

The prefect Rusticus pronounced sentence, saying: "Let those who have refused to sacrifice to the gods and to obey the command of the emperor be scourged and led away to suffer capital punishment according to the ruling of the laws." Glorifying God, the holy martyrs went out to the accustomed place. They were beheaded, and so fulfilled their witness of martyrdom in confessing their faith in their Savior."

Ferris Bueller said: ↑
This is exactly why I resent Justin Martyr. He, solely, may be responsible for leading the church down the path of cold, dead, empty, regimented 'religion'.

 

[Brakelite]

This is exactly why I resent Justin Martyr. He, solely, may be responsible for leading the church down the path of cold, dead, empty, regimented 'religion'. Even the Protestants are poisoned by this curse of cold, dead 'religion'. I think of this often when I consider how far removed even we non-Catholics are from meeting in the style of 1 Corinthians 14:26-31 that Paul taught. Does the Catholic church not know about that passage, or have they just decided they aren't going to listen to Apostle Paul?

I agree with you about Justin Martyr. He taught Tatian who taught Clement, the founder of the school at Alexandria that gave birth to gnosticism. The entire mindset of biblical interpretation turned to custard at Alexandria, and Rome signed on to the same mindset. Then came the error ridden Bibles of Rome based on poor manuscripts, and doctrine and truth hurtled downhill with great velocity from that time on.

 

[Taken]

The Catholic Church is not your enemy. But you won't have it any other way.

You as well as a couple of other Catholic persons repeatedly post accusatory language you heap upon others AS IF you are qualified to speak on behalf of others....

There is a HUGE difference Between DISAGREEING, and ANTI, Hater, Enemy, Wrong...
If you can not figure that out, then by the same token, IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ANYONE, YOU are the one who is ANTI, Hater, Enemy, Wrong...

See how that works?

 

[Illuminator]

You as well as a couple of other Catholic persons you heap upon others AS IF you are qualified to speak on behalf of others....

There is a HUGE difference Between DISAGREEING, and ANTI, Hater, Enemy, Wrong...
If you can not figure that out, then by the same token, IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ANYONE, YOU are the one who is ANTI, Hater, Enemy, Wrong...

See how that works?

I don't mind disagreement, and they should be discussed in a civilized manner. But you, and brakelite persecute with lies and falsehoods, like he lies about Clement with no evidence and no quotes. You don't quote "repeatedly post accusatory language", you simply assert it when you have no case. The Catholic Church is not your enemy, we accept all baptized in Christ as brothers and sisters in the Lord, and in return we get endless unwarranted hostilities from "Bible Christian" hate cults based on ignorance and prejudice.

 

[Taken]

I don't mind disagreement, and they should be discussed in a civilized manner. But you, and brakelite persecute with lies and falsehoods, like he lies about Clement with no evidence and no quotes. You don't quote "repeatedly post accusatory language", you simply assert it when you have no case. The Catholic Church is not your enemy, we accept all baptized in Christ as brothers and sisters in the Lord, and in return we get endless unwarranted hostilities from "Bible Christian" hate cults that isn't based on reality.

No one is trying to climb into your Catholic church’s acceptance.
Your church is a building. I have never claimed a building is my enemy.
When you believe a comment is NOT CORRECT, your response is, lies, wrong, anti-catholic, hater, hate cults, blah, blah...
Is that civil disagreeing? No.

In this post, you have claimed: persecute, lies, falsehoods, hate cults...
And then say...”not your enemy”....
Really? If he whom you are charging ... persecution, lies, falsehoods, hate cults....are not you enemy....who IS your enemy?

 

[Philip James]

Well, when your wine and bread become actual blood and tissue let me know.

At the consecration during every celebration of the Divine liturgy

Until the doors are closed, It's never to late to return to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Ferris Bueller]

At the consecration during every celebration of the Divine liturgy

Until the doors are closed, It's never to late to return to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

It doesn't happen.
When it does let me know.
You are in the grip of a delusion.

 

[Illuminator]

To all those out there with a grudge against the Church, especially to the media, let me say this. I want you to attack the Church with everything you have. I want you to expose every skeleton, in every closet, of every Bishop, Priest, and Brother or Sister you can find. I want you to probe and penetrate, search and investigate, inquire and interrogate. Leave no stone unturned. Bring your experts on television, tell us your opinion, and make your predictions. Tell us in the strongest terms you can just how weak, how immoral, how stupid, cruel, cold and callous the leaders of the Catholic Church really are. I only ask that you tell the truth. Tell just enough truth, in just the right way, to make life in the Church appear solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. Keep pointing your finger and cry bad, bad, bad until you run out of breath. I want you to use all your influence, howsoever much it might be, to persuade as many minds as you can that the Church is full of hypocrites, liars, cowards. Try to prove that all of us must finally come to agree with you that the Church is really nothing special. I even want you to talk with Catholic theologians who will agree with you, and demand that the Church must change, change, change, change! Let us hear how out of touch with reality the leadership is, let us hear how snotty, how arrogant, how aloof they are, how blah, blah, blah I want you to keep asking why the Church has not hired any P.R. firms to help maintain its image and credibility like the Mormon Church and Jehovah Witnesses do. Then I want you to turn around and blame the Bishops for only caring for the Church‚s image and credibility. Keep making these sorts of observations please, I urge you. Do not hold back. Your chains have been unloosed for a short while. Give us your best shot.

Oh how I relish these days! So many people at once thinking about the Catholic Church. To all those out there who are paying attention to the Church, to all the men and women of good will, let me say this. The claim we make now, always have made, and always will make is that the Church comes from the Apostles, the Apostles come from Christ, and Christ comes from God. My theology comes from above. The Catholic Church is established by God to communicate the truth about God, man, and the world to all people in every nation under heaven. She is endowed by God with all the power She needs to teach the truth and to perpetuate the mission of Jesus Christ in the world. Perhaps the word power frightens you. Perhaps you fear the Church is trying to impose Her opinions upon you. But before you fear, look at a crucifix and ask yourself whether that looks like a man trying to impose upon on you.

To all of you out there who are willing to think the matter through with me, I say that the argument is always the same. Either the Church originates from God or the Church originates from men. Now, if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God. (Acts 5:38-9) That is why I want the attack to be severe. The more the wretchedness of Catholic leaders is brought to light the better. For if the Church is of God, then even the most furious attack upon it, even the most evident dirty truth about Her leaders -- no matter what its magnitude, no matter what its duration, no matter what its degree of intensity -- all of the efforts of those who would destroy the Church will come to naught. All the power and the influence of the media, the secularists, the skeptics, the Catholic bashers and the bigots, all of it will come to nothing, even though we ourselves hand them ammunition so damaging that they could ask for none better.

That is why I relish these days, for in these days the invincible stability of the Church is shining brightly. The evil, both within the Church and without, only shows that God is with us, that it is God Himself who stabilizes the Catholic Church. It is God who vouches for Her message. It is God who is telling the story that the Church is constantly telling about Herself. The Church is not merely the product of man.

What shall all you gleeful opponents of the Church say in reply? If you say that the Church is from men, that it is just one more social institution among others, then you are forced to defend the manifestly ridiculous proposition that it is Bishops and Priests who have held the Church together for thousands of years. Don't make me laugh. What shall you say? Shall you say instead that it is the laity who hold the Church together? Catholic laity are hardly known for their widespread and fervent enthusiasm. American Catholics these days indulge in their designer spouses all fixed up on their diaphragms and pills just as much as the rest of the world does. American Catholics so completely bought into the 60’s that we should expect to see the Church going the way of the 60’s. Why is it not? Why does the Church still teach that men should not sleep with men, nor women sleep with women, nor should women and men sleep with each other unless the other person is ones only living spouse and not semi-rejected with contraception?

Don’t bother saying the Church will change these teachings as soon as Pope Francis dies. When he dies, he will be stronger and more influential than ever.
Perhaps the best you opponents of the Church can do to explain why the Church is so invincibly stable is to pull out your old-fashioned rationalism. All you can say is that what keeps the Church going is simply that the Church provides a fairy tale to fill people‚s deepest emotional and psychological needs for personal meaning and comfort. But now you have passed from the ridiculous to the absurd. You are telling me that, despite all the hostile forces against it, despite all the obstacles in its path, and despite all the wickedness, wretchedness, ineptitude and imbecility in her own members, the reason why the world‚s oldest and largest institution has been perpetuated is just because Catholics have a great fairy tale to comfort them? Your explanation boils down to the claim that the Catholic Church has grown and survived, and become all that it is, just because Catholics are irrational. From your explanation, it follows that irrationality is more successful in the long run. If that is so, then why should I be what you call rational?

If irrationality is better in the long run, then what must we say of your god Rationalism? Rationalism has not smiled very brightly on the societies you organized in its name. For where are your rationally organized societies now? They are long dead, recently dead, or currently dying. It seems that your god Rationalism is good for nothing. The twilight of that idol has been upon us for some time now.

Any man who denies that the Church is from God must attribute to Catholics a certain sort of excellence that we would not dare attribute to ourselves. He must attribute to us the capacity to perpetuate our message and way of life for millennia, to spread it all over the world to people of every language and culture, and to get over a billion people to get down on their knees and say to a fictitious God, “Thy will be done”, all without any help from above, without any divine assistance, and without any grace from a real God. Do you realize what you have said if you attribute that sort of excellence to us? You have said that Catholics are “uebermenschen”: people who live, and move, and act far above the ordinary run of their fellows. You have said that we are a superior race of people, for ours is a two thousand year Reich, two thousand years and counting. Make no mistake. I do not say that we are uebermenschen. You do.

For it is you who deny that the Church is from above, it is you who deny that it is God who perpetuates the Church, it is you who deny that we are being taught by God, and so it is you who must affirm that we have achieved it all by our own natural talents. How ridiculous for you to say that we are all that.