She has to be interested first though. And so far she hasn't really been very keen.
It's one to remember though. Thank you.
I just ordered the e-version for myself.
Why do Catholics adore, worship and deify Mary so much?
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It's one to remember though. Thank you.
I just ordered the e-version for myself.
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
Wow! that's pretty good! Keep me posted. Did you read the first page. There is one line in that first page that grabbed me instantly and had to think it through. It was pretty powerful.
It reminded me of an incidence when I saw a girl that had a T-shirt on and on the back of it was written "God rides a motorcycle!" I almost cried. That is what that book is about...it's bringing a Holy God down to a human's level that is a travesty!
try the imitation of Christ it is the second most read book after scripture
Wow! Miracle!
he recommended a book and it’s not about Mary!!!
yahoo!
Are you guys asleep?
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
amigo is not demonstrating ignorance regarding Catholicism.
Many of us have been in the Catholic church have found it to be a very "cold" church despite all the glitter, statute, stained glass windows, traditions that are heretical, confessions to priest that have no God-given power to forgive sins, praying to saints that can't hear because they are dead, kneeling to idols that can't speak, saying mundane prayers through prayer beads rather that to God, calling a pope "father" when we already have the true Father in heaven, forbidding the reading of the Bible, baptizing babies when it is not in the Bible and paying to get people out of hell and covering up homosexual priest and popes. All of theses things and much more, add up to a religion that is a heretical church according to God's word in scripture.
So ignorant are we? No, enlightened is a better word for it. Those who ran from all these things now live much happier lives and feel "freedom" from especially all those catechisms, rules and regulations that do not save anyone - only a relationship with Christ does.
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Thank you @theefaith - very wise words.
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
It cost me 21 pence and I read the intro and first two chapters. And like I could relate to what Tozer said. I don't go to our church meetings very often any more as I felt that there wan't enough reverence and most of the songs were prayer about 'me' instead of true worship, praise or thanksgiving.
According to Catholic teaching but I belong to a new Testament non-denominational church and we don't believe any of that and the teaching is bible based.
My niece prays to Mary and to her dead parents. So it isn't showing ignorance to believe that way when we hear that people do actually pray to Mary.
The Holy Spirit is “uncreated Advocate” and Mary is “created Advocate.” Advocacy for the Church is their common cause. Since Mary is full of grace and full of the Holy Spirit, her will, prayers, and advocacy mirror that of the Holy Spirit. (This does not make Her God)
Mary is depicted as the spouse of the Holy Spirit therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.” Lk 1:35
This is nuptial language hearkening back to Ruth 3:8, where Ruth said to Boaz “spread your skirt over me” when she revealed to him his duty to marry her according to the law of Deuteronomy 25. When Mary became pregnant, Joseph would have been required to divorce her because she would then belong to another (see Dt 24:1-4; Jer 3:1). But when Joseph found out that “the other” was the Holy Spirit, the idea of his having conjugal relations with Mary was not a consideration.
Let us take our helper (advocate) and intercessor the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so that she, who from the moment of her conception overcame Satan may show her power over these evil sects, in which is revived the contumacious spirit of the demon, together with his unsubdued perfidy and deceit. Let us beseech Michael, the prince of the heavenly angels, who drove out the infernal foe; and Joseph, the spouse of the most holy Virgin, and heavenly patron of the Catholic Church; and the great Apostles, Peter and Paul, the fathers and victorious champions of the Christian faith. By their patronage, and by perseverance in united prayer, we hope that God will mercifully and opportunely succor the human race, which is encompassed by so many dangers.
Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Lk 1: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of grace!
It only by the power of the Holy Spirit thru the immaculate purity of Mary that the virgin-mother brings forth the Holy son of God!
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
A new song!
Good enough for Angels!
Good enough for the Bible!
Good enough for me!
Hail Mary! Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women,
Lk 1:28 blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (Jesus) Lk 1:42 Holy Mary, mother of God, Lk 1:43 pray for us sinners, now,
rev 5:8 and at the hour of our death, Matt 24:13 amen!
It is really God who greeting Mary with the “Hail Mary”!
Lk 1:26 & Lk 1:45
Blessed art thou among all women! Lk 1:28 & Lk 1:45 & Lk 1:48
All generations shall call me blessed!
A song of thanksgiving for bringing our salvation!
Mary is depicted as the spouse of the Holy Spirit therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.” Lk 1:35
This is nuptial language hearkening back to Ruth 3:8, where Ruth said to Boaz “spread your skirt over me” when she revealed to him his duty to marry her according to the law of Deuteronomy 25. When Mary became pregnant, Joseph would have been required to divorce her because she would then belong to another (see Dt 24:1-4; Jer 3:1). But when Joseph found out that “the other” was the Holy Spirit, the idea of his having conjugal relations with Mary was not a consideration.
Let us take our helper (advocate) and intercessor the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so that she, who from the moment of her conception overcame Satan may show her power over these evil sects, in which is revived the contumacious spirit of the demon, together with his unsubdued perfidy and deceit. Let us beseech Michael, the prince of the heavenly angels, who drove out the infernal foe; and Joseph, the spouse of the most holy Virgin, and heavenly patron of the Catholic Church; and the great Apostles, Peter and Paul, the fathers and victorious champions of the Christian faith. By their patronage, and by perseverance in united prayer, we hope that God will mercifully and opportunely succor the human race, which is encompassed by so many dangers.
Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Lk 1: 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of grace!
It only by the power of the Holy Spirit thru the immaculate purity of Mary that the virgin-mother brings forth the Holy son of God!
Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
A new song!
Good enough for Angels!
Good enough for the Bible!
Good enough for me!
Hail Mary! Full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women,
Lk 1:28 blessed is the fruit of thy womb, (Jesus) Lk 1:42 Holy Mary, mother of God, Lk 1:43 pray for us sinners, now,
rev 5:8 and at the hour of our death, Matt 24:13 amen!
It is really God who greeting Mary with the “Hail Mary”!
Lk 1:26 & Lk 1:45
Blessed art thou among all women! Lk 1:28 & Lk 1:45 & Lk 1:48
All generations shall call me blessed!
A song of thanksgiving for bringing our salvation!
I also recommend the martyrs of the coliseum or the victory of the martyrs by Lugori who also wrote the Glories of Mary!
Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
When Jesus referred to the Queen of the South in Mt. 12:42 and Luke 11:31, He was actually talking about the Queen of Sheba. Scripture speaks of the Queen of the South visiting the court of Solomon in 1 Kings 10. Therefore, Jesus was contrasting the Queen’s actions with the actions of the religious leaders of His time. Though Sheba was a pagan queen, she traveled a long distance to listen to Solomon and seek his wisdom whereas the religious leaders were unwilling to listen to the Son of God who came down from heaven to save them.
There are only 4 verses in the entire New Testament that uses the word "queen" and none of them are "in heaven."
Mat 12:42...The queen of the South will arise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. Luk 11:31 is a repeat of Mt 12:42.
Act 8:27...And he rose and went. And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of the Can'dace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship. (literal queen)
Rev 18:7...As she glorified herself and played the wanton, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning. Since in her heart she says, 'A queen I sit, I am no widow, mourning I shall never see,'
Nope! No hint of a "Holy Queen Mary" in heaven or on earth in scripture! You should probably do better on a RCC website. They will agree with your false interpretations there I assume.Act 8:27...And he rose and went. And behold, an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a minister of the Can'dace, queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of all her treasure, had come to Jerusalem to worship. (literal queen)
Rev 18:7...As she glorified herself and played the wanton, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning. Since in her heart she says, 'A queen I sit, I am no widow, mourning I shall never see,'
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
1 Kings 2: 17-20
. . . If the kings of Judah had wives for queens, like other nations, then we would have no analogy, but the fact that it might be so unusual, makes it all the more stunning. That the kings in the ancestral line of Jesus had mothers for queens is all the more appropriate that Jesus continue this “unusual practice” and make his mother the queen according to the same pattern of his predecessors.
One CANNOT deny that Solomon, the Son of David who sat on the throne of his father David -- Solomon DID have his mother for a queen. And he DID set up the throne for her at his right hand. If it is unusual, it only makes my case all the stronger.
One CANNOT deny that Jesus sits on the throne of his father Solomon. Jesus is the ultimate Son of David who sits on the throne of David (and Solomon) and it would not be unbiblical or irrational or astounding to think that Jesus would do for his mother what Solomon did for his. . . .
. . . He says “she did not obtain from her son what she wished” as if that proved there could not be a Queen Mother. I remember my dad telling me that Mary could not be the queen of heaven -- using the same argument -- because Bathsheba did not get the request she asked for. I guess my question to that is “So what, what does that prove?”
Solomon was a type of Christ even though he was a sinner. Bathsheba was also a sinner. She asked for something unwise and Solomon refused. Just because Bathsheba asked for something unwise and it was not granted to her by her son Solomon, it does not mean she didn’t have the office of Queen Mother. It simply means she was unwise and didn’t receive her request.
Mary is not unwise and would not ask for something inappropriate. But even if she did (for the sake of argument), it would not invalidate the position of Queen Mother, or prove that she was not in heaven as the queen.
But didn’t Solomon reject his mother’s request? Yes, he did. But that in no way detracts from the fact that this office existed anymore than the presence of false prophets proves that prophets did not exist. It should be noted that all three parties, Adonijah (v. 17), Bathsheba (v. 18), and Solomon (v. 20), believed that because Bathsheba was the Queen Mother that she could intercede on others’ behalf with the reasonable expectation of a favorable answer. No one’s sensibilities are shocked by Bathsheba’s actions. The negative answer does not invalidate the fact that Bathsheba could ask and that there was an expectation that whatever was asked would receive a favorable hearing.
. . . For example, one may say that the Queen Mothers were terrible sinners and therefore how could Mary be seen as a Queen Mother?
This is a terrible argument.
First, whether or not office holders are sinners is irrelevant to whether an office exists. Indeed, an evil office holder may lower the prestige of an office, but it doesn’t invalid[ate] it any more than a bad president proves that the office of president doesn’t exist. We’ve seen that in our lifetime, unfortunately.
Second, the objector assumes that this argument is typological, which it is not. It is analogical. But even if it were a typological argument (which it is not), Mary would be the antitype to Bathsheba by opposition, which is one of the most common anti-typical fulfillments in the Bible. But since this is a[n] argument from the analogy of the institution, it doesn’t matter who the particular office-holder was as long as it was the king’s mother.
God, in his providential care, guided the Old Covenant people to develop certain institutions so that when Christ came, we would, by analogy, have something to help understand Him and his Mission, his office and his Church. For example, the Old Covenant has the institution of the priesthood so that we may understand, by analogy, Christ’s priesthood and how it relates to us and our redemption. Despite the fact that there were false prophets, sinful priests and evil kings in the Old Testament the institutions themselves aid us in understanding Christ, His relationship to God, and his relationship to everyone else since he is the true prophet, priest and king.
In a nutshell... the office of the Queen Mother, which is firmly established in Scripture, as analogous to Mary as Queen of Heaven. It's an analogy, but (like many are) an imperfect one, because Bathsheba (being a sinner like the rest of us, and once an adulteress) would not always ask for the right thing, whereas Mary would. The analogy is to the office, not every single jot and tittle.
It's like arguing for the office of the papacy by the original example of Peter, and the prototype that he provided in the Bible. The office of the papacy is not at all -- not in the slightest -- undermined because Peter betrayed Jesus, or because he was once rebuked by Jesus, saying "get behind me Satan," or because Paul rebuked him for hypocrisy. Nor does this undermine papal infallibility, which is a limited charism, and not directly connected with whether the particular pope involved is a sinner or not.
Likewise, biblical inspiration is not undermined because God used sinners to write His inspired Bible (murderers like Moses, David, and Paul, and betrayers and wimps like Peter; former despised tax collectors like Matthew). The "office" of Scripture writer, in other words, was not rendered null and void because sinners occupied it.
Another similar imperfect analogy would be King David (the adulterer and murderer) as a type, shadow, or forerunner of the Messiah, Jesus. This is a clear Scriptural motif in the prophets (Is 9:6-7; Jer 23:5-6; 30:9; Ezek 34:23-24; 37:24-25; Zech 12:8; cf. Luke 1:31-33,68-69)...
The New Testament applies the institution of Davidic Kingship to Jesus. He is the true Son of David and one who is greater than Solomon. As I mentioned in point one, by this institution we can better understand Jesus, His mission and His relationship to others. Therefore, the Jewish understanding of the King, with his courts, officers and mission provides us with a biblical insight into how Jesus is as Messiah-King and what he might do as the Messiah-King.
source
. . . If the kings of Judah had wives for queens, like other nations, then we would have no analogy, but the fact that it might be so unusual, makes it all the more stunning. That the kings in the ancestral line of Jesus had mothers for queens is all the more appropriate that Jesus continue this “unusual practice” and make his mother the queen according to the same pattern of his predecessors.
One CANNOT deny that Solomon, the Son of David who sat on the throne of his father David -- Solomon DID have his mother for a queen. And he DID set up the throne for her at his right hand. If it is unusual, it only makes my case all the stronger.
One CANNOT deny that Jesus sits on the throne of his father Solomon. Jesus is the ultimate Son of David who sits on the throne of David (and Solomon) and it would not be unbiblical or irrational or astounding to think that Jesus would do for his mother what Solomon did for his. . . .
. . . He says “she did not obtain from her son what she wished” as if that proved there could not be a Queen Mother. I remember my dad telling me that Mary could not be the queen of heaven -- using the same argument -- because Bathsheba did not get the request she asked for. I guess my question to that is “So what, what does that prove?”
Solomon was a type of Christ even though he was a sinner. Bathsheba was also a sinner. She asked for something unwise and Solomon refused. Just because Bathsheba asked for something unwise and it was not granted to her by her son Solomon, it does not mean she didn’t have the office of Queen Mother. It simply means she was unwise and didn’t receive her request.
Mary is not unwise and would not ask for something inappropriate. But even if she did (for the sake of argument), it would not invalidate the position of Queen Mother, or prove that she was not in heaven as the queen.
But didn’t Solomon reject his mother’s request? Yes, he did. But that in no way detracts from the fact that this office existed anymore than the presence of false prophets proves that prophets did not exist. It should be noted that all three parties, Adonijah (v. 17), Bathsheba (v. 18), and Solomon (v. 20), believed that because Bathsheba was the Queen Mother that she could intercede on others’ behalf with the reasonable expectation of a favorable answer. No one’s sensibilities are shocked by Bathsheba’s actions. The negative answer does not invalidate the fact that Bathsheba could ask and that there was an expectation that whatever was asked would receive a favorable hearing.
. . . For example, one may say that the Queen Mothers were terrible sinners and therefore how could Mary be seen as a Queen Mother?
This is a terrible argument.
First, whether or not office holders are sinners is irrelevant to whether an office exists. Indeed, an evil office holder may lower the prestige of an office, but it doesn’t invalid[ate] it any more than a bad president proves that the office of president doesn’t exist. We’ve seen that in our lifetime, unfortunately.
Second, the objector assumes that this argument is typological, which it is not. It is analogical. But even if it were a typological argument (which it is not), Mary would be the antitype to Bathsheba by opposition, which is one of the most common anti-typical fulfillments in the Bible. But since this is a[n] argument from the analogy of the institution, it doesn’t matter who the particular office-holder was as long as it was the king’s mother.
God, in his providential care, guided the Old Covenant people to develop certain institutions so that when Christ came, we would, by analogy, have something to help understand Him and his Mission, his office and his Church. For example, the Old Covenant has the institution of the priesthood so that we may understand, by analogy, Christ’s priesthood and how it relates to us and our redemption. Despite the fact that there were false prophets, sinful priests and evil kings in the Old Testament the institutions themselves aid us in understanding Christ, His relationship to God, and his relationship to everyone else since he is the true prophet, priest and king.
In a nutshell... the office of the Queen Mother, which is firmly established in Scripture, as analogous to Mary as Queen of Heaven. It's an analogy, but (like many are) an imperfect one, because Bathsheba (being a sinner like the rest of us, and once an adulteress) would not always ask for the right thing, whereas Mary would. The analogy is to the office, not every single jot and tittle.
It's like arguing for the office of the papacy by the original example of Peter, and the prototype that he provided in the Bible. The office of the papacy is not at all -- not in the slightest -- undermined because Peter betrayed Jesus, or because he was once rebuked by Jesus, saying "get behind me Satan," or because Paul rebuked him for hypocrisy. Nor does this undermine papal infallibility, which is a limited charism, and not directly connected with whether the particular pope involved is a sinner or not.
Likewise, biblical inspiration is not undermined because God used sinners to write His inspired Bible (murderers like Moses, David, and Paul, and betrayers and wimps like Peter; former despised tax collectors like Matthew). The "office" of Scripture writer, in other words, was not rendered null and void because sinners occupied it.
Another similar imperfect analogy would be King David (the adulterer and murderer) as a type, shadow, or forerunner of the Messiah, Jesus. This is a clear Scriptural motif in the prophets (Is 9:6-7; Jer 23:5-6; 30:9; Ezek 34:23-24; 37:24-25; Zech 12:8; cf. Luke 1:31-33,68-69)...
The New Testament applies the institution of Davidic Kingship to Jesus. He is the true Son of David and one who is greater than Solomon. As I mentioned in point one, by this institution we can better understand Jesus, His mission and His relationship to others. Therefore, the Jewish understanding of the King, with his courts, officers and mission provides us with a biblical insight into how Jesus is as Messiah-King and what he might do as the Messiah-King.
source
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Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
I notice that you too could not provide even one verse that specifically supports the RCC's heretical "tradition" concerning Mary as Queen of Heaven.
Mary is dead and buried somewhere in Jerusalem most likely because that is where John lived most of his time. The scriptures are silent concerning Joseph after his role as Mary's husband was fulfilled just as Mary's role went silent in scripture after the Day of Pentecost. It is not unusual that scripture is silent after a person's role in scripture is fulfilled as in the woman at the well in John 4 or the Ethiopian eunuch and many more. The reason for that is that, just as John the Baptist said of himself, the others also can claim the same thing that John did here because it basically is the same principle,...
Jhn 3:28-30...You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him. He who has the bride is the bridegroom; the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice; therefore this joy of mine is now full. He must increase, but I must decrease."
John saw his role in God's plan as "a friend of the bridegroom" that paved the way of the bridegroom whereas Mary paved the way for the Savior of the world to be born...and then once their roles were fulfilled, both decreased in scripture so that the Messiah becomes the main "subject" for the rest of the entire book.
P.S. Your pope looks like he has a headache. LOL! How is it that he is not concerned about his "false traditions" that keep his parisioners in fear of losing their salvation if they dared to leave the RCC? For that he should have a headache!
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
I notice that not once in all your anti-Mary posts, you have never acknowledged the office of queen in the OT because it demolishes your shallow objections. I gave 1 Kings 2:17-20 and explained it as analogous to Mary and you cannot understand analogy. You cannot provide one verse that specifically supports the man made tradition of sola scriptura, Old or New Testaments. Your reply has nothing to do with the quote.
. Why don't you guys form a team of archeologists and find her body. Nobody could find her body in the 1st century, and sceptics like you are forced to make false claims, as if the Apostles were deceiving liars and hid her body so they could invent false traditions.
So Mary's role in God's plan of salvation is merely a historical event??? The decrease of John the Baptist being the same principle as being chosen to be the mother of the Messiah is absurd Bible twisting.
Yet you are unable to find a scripture that specifically points to the decrease of Mary's role. Using John the Baptist as a comparative is a non-sequitur fallacy. The whole point of all Mariology is so that the Messiah becomes the main "subject", that you refuse to see. Her soul magnifies the Lord, how is that merely a historical event and not a perpetual one???
"Keeping parishioners in fear" has no basis in reality, it's fundie nonsense (one of your false traditions). Sorry you are so cold to the realities of inhumane conditions suffered by millions, to you it's more important to mock the Pope's authentic concern for humanity out of blindness and prejudice.
Every Bible reader in the world knows there are good traditions and bad traditions. Your private war on all "tradition" is not biblical; your constant insults on tradition amount to cheap straw man fallacies.
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Moriah's Song
Well-Known Member
IDOLATRY OF THE RCC:
1Co 10:14...Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols.
1Co 12:2...You know that when you were heathen, you were led astray to dumb idols, however you may have been moved.
2Co 6:16...What agreement has the temple of God with idols?
1Jo 5:21...Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
Luk 4:8...And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"
Rom 11:8...as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."
1Co 3:19...For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness,"
1Co 12:2...You know that when you were heathen, you were led astray to dumb idols, however you may have been moved.
2Co 6:16...What agreement has the temple of God with idols?
1Jo 5:21...Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
Luk 4:8...And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"
Rom 11:8...as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."
1Co 3:19...For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness,"
MAN MADE TRADITONS
Mar 7:4...and when they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they purify themselves; and there are many other traditions which they observe, the washing of cups and pots and vessels of bronze.)
SOLA SCTIPTURE
Exo 24:12...The LORD said to Moses, "Come up to me on the mountain, and wait there; and I will give you the tables of stone, with the law and the commandment, which I have written for their instruction."
Jhn 1:1...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Rom 3:4...By no means! Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written, "That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and prevail when thou art judged."
Jhn 1:1...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Rom 3:4...By no means! Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written, "That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and prevail when thou art judged."
1Co 4:6...I have applied all this to myself and Apol'los for your benefit, brethren, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written,
1Co 10:11...Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come.
2Co 3:2...You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on your hearts, to be known and read by all men;
Jhn 20:31...but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name
1Co 10:11...Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come.
2Co 3:2...You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on your hearts, to be known and read by all men;
Jhn 20:31...but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name
1Ti 4:13...Till I come, attend to the public reading of scripture to preaching, to teaching.
2Ti 3:16...All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Pe 1:20...First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
Heb 13:22...I appeal to you, brethren, bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly.
2Th 2:15...So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
1Co 11:2...I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
Rom 15:4...For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that by steadfastness and by the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.
Act 24:14...But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets
Rev 1:3...Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.
Luk 4:17...and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
Luk 24:44...Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled."
Jhn 6:45...It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.
Act 15:15...And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written
Deu 30:10...if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul
2Ti 3:16...All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Pe 1:20...First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
Heb 13:22...I appeal to you, brethren, bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly.
2Th 2:15...So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
1Co 11:2...I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.
Rom 15:4...For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that by steadfastness and by the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.
Act 24:14...But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets
Rev 1:3...Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.
Luk 4:17...and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
Luk 24:44...Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled."
Jhn 6:45...It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.
Act 15:15...And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written
Deu 30:10...if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul
SSCRIPTURE ALONE! Only God's Word prevails in the end!
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
1 Kings 2: 17-20
. . . If the kings of Judah had wives for queens, like other nations, then we would have no analogy, but the fact that it might be so unusual, makes it all the more stunning. That the kings in the ancestral line of Jesus had mothers for queens is all the more appropriate that Jesus continue this “unusual practice” and make his mother the queen according to the same pattern of his predecessors.
One CANNOT deny that Solomon, the Son of David who sat on the throne of his father David -- Solomon DID have his mother for a queen. And he DID set up the throne for her at his right hand. If it is unusual, it only makes my case all the stronger.
One CANNOT deny that Jesus sits on the throne of his father Solomon. Jesus is the ultimate Son of David who sits on the throne of David (and Solomon) and it would not be unbiblical or irrational or astounding to think that Jesus would do for his mother what Solomon did for his. . . . but Moriah's Song calls it blasphemy.
Note the off topic derailer often employed when anti-Catholics are debunked:
CCC2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.
That's your man made tradition. Paul is quoting from Psalm 50:4 and Psalm 51:4. None of these verses support the written word alone theory.
Going Beyond
So tradition isn't a dirty word after all.
. . . If the kings of Judah had wives for queens, like other nations, then we would have no analogy, but the fact that it might be so unusual, makes it all the more stunning. That the kings in the ancestral line of Jesus had mothers for queens is all the more appropriate that Jesus continue this “unusual practice” and make his mother the queen according to the same pattern of his predecessors.
One CANNOT deny that Solomon, the Son of David who sat on the throne of his father David -- Solomon DID have his mother for a queen. And he DID set up the throne for her at his right hand. If it is unusual, it only makes my case all the stronger.
One CANNOT deny that Jesus sits on the throne of his father Solomon. Jesus is the ultimate Son of David who sits on the throne of David (and Solomon) and it would not be unbiblical or irrational or astounding to think that Jesus would do for his mother what Solomon did for his. . . . but Moriah's Song calls it blasphemy.
Note the off topic derailer often employed when anti-Catholics are debunked:
CCC2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon." Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast" refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.
Try reading all the way to verse 10 (Mark 7:1-10) if that's possible. "your traditions" does not mean the traditions that Jesus kept all His life. It does not mean the traditions that Paul tells us to keep. Jesus excoriated the Jews for inventing their own traditions: giving everything to the Temple just to look holy at the expense of their parents. Verse 10 makes this abundantly clear. They made void the 4th commandment, the word of God.
The tables of stone were placed in the Ark of the Covenant. The Word Made Flesh is incarnated in the womb of Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.
That refers to the Person of Jesus, not a book. Nowhere in Scripture does "Word of God" mean the written word alone. Use any bible search engine you like.
Romans 3:4 doesn't say: "That thou mayest be justified in thy written words alone."
That's your man made tradition. Paul is quoting from Psalm 50:4 and Psalm 51:4. None of these verses support the written word alone theory.
Sola scriptura is the Reformation version of the emperor’s new clothes. In their attempt to evade the biblical and historical evidence of the Church’s magisterial authority the Reformers insisted on seeing in the Bible a doctrine which simply isn’t there.
Going Beyond
So tradition isn't a dirty word after all.
Then prove, using scripture alone, that the Magisterium and Tradition are not necessary for sound teaching. Good luck with that...
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