I figured that. But I didn't understand your reasoning. Again, care to elaborate?
Why Do Christians Pray “Thy Kingdom Come”?
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Going back through the posts, you agreed with everything except you thought Isa 2:2,3 was future, whereas I believe it is happening now. Perhaps you realize that when the Kingdom comes all governments will be removed from the earth, if you do then reading the parallel account penned at Micah chap 4 will drive the point home to you as verse 3 and 5 shows that Kings of the earth will still be here as well as those worshipping false gods during the fulfillment of the gathering, and educating of Jehovah's people.
And what do you do with verse 4? "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Is this happening now?
Again, is the "mountain of Jehovah" established now? Where it is?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Christ brought His spiritual Kingdom. He said it was at hand and it opened up at Pentecost and has been growing since. So "AS IT IS IN HEAVEN" so shall it will be "ON EARTH" soon.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Very good point Berean, yes sir, Christians have beaten their swords into plowshares so to speak. We do not take arms against others. That is just as figurative as the mountain sir, there is no literal mountain, nor a literal house of the God of Jacob. People from all over the earth are gathered into their own congregations just like the first century only covering a much larger terrain. Like the first century Christians who were governed by the governing body located in Jerusalem, we today are governed by the governing body assigned by Christ called the faithful and discreet slave in Mat 24:45-47 to feed his sheep until his return.
Well Robert, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I don't believe there was a first century governing body. But we can discuss that at another time we don't want to derail this topic.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
For we walk by faith not by sight.
Faith is believing that whatever God said, will come to pass.
Right now we are in the place where everything is covered in darkness. Evil and chaos is everywhere.
God sent light to the earth to divide order from chaos.
In the midst of this God planted a garden and put man in it to tend it, keep it, have dominion over it, and multiply upon it.
This garden became overwhelmed with thorns and thistles and every evil bird roosted in it.
Because man had left off tending the garden for his own desires. He wanted his own garden.
So darkness crept in more and more, and God took a hose to it and washed out all the evil and began again.
Noah was now the keeper of the garden. And he was supposed to be the keeper of faith because it was by faith that God saved him and his family.
But time went on and man falls. We got towers being built, kingdoms rising and falling, until it gets so bad that God sets fire to Sodom and Gomorrah. Because that infestation needs to be burned out like a bad cancer.
Only Lot survived and his daughters. And as time goes on you see a patch of light here and more darkness creeping in there, all the way till we get to the end. And the whole world would of been destroyed through darkness and chaos, but God sent the light again to brighten it.
These little lights been burning bright all over the earth for over 2000 years now. Some flames have burned out and are resting, some flames are very bright and you can pick them out in certain places. Other flames are barely flickering but still holding on.
These little lights, they're tending the garden. They are plucking out thorns and casting out evil birds, and doing their best to multiply and spread that which God made good all over the earth.
The darkness is trying so hard right now to put out those flames. They trying to cover them up, hide them in dungeons, crush them.
But still the work goes on in the garden. A little church here, a forum there. Spreading the good news, that God is coming back for his garden.
And not only his garden but the whole earth. And the darkness which covered the face of the deep will be no more.
And just like Abraham who had faith and saw the promise afar off. We too must keep faith that that promise is nearer, even at the door.
Just because we can't "see it" doesn't make it so.
That's why we walk by faith and not by sight, because we believe what God said.
And God saw everything that he had made and it was very good.
Jhn 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
It's dark out there... and it's always darkest before the dawn.
Believe and ye shall recieve.
Hugs
Faith is believing that whatever God said, will come to pass.
Right now we are in the place where everything is covered in darkness. Evil and chaos is everywhere.
God sent light to the earth to divide order from chaos.
In the midst of this God planted a garden and put man in it to tend it, keep it, have dominion over it, and multiply upon it.
This garden became overwhelmed with thorns and thistles and every evil bird roosted in it.
Because man had left off tending the garden for his own desires. He wanted his own garden.
So darkness crept in more and more, and God took a hose to it and washed out all the evil and began again.
Noah was now the keeper of the garden. And he was supposed to be the keeper of faith because it was by faith that God saved him and his family.
But time went on and man falls. We got towers being built, kingdoms rising and falling, until it gets so bad that God sets fire to Sodom and Gomorrah. Because that infestation needs to be burned out like a bad cancer.
Only Lot survived and his daughters. And as time goes on you see a patch of light here and more darkness creeping in there, all the way till we get to the end. And the whole world would of been destroyed through darkness and chaos, but God sent the light again to brighten it.
These little lights been burning bright all over the earth for over 2000 years now. Some flames have burned out and are resting, some flames are very bright and you can pick them out in certain places. Other flames are barely flickering but still holding on.
These little lights, they're tending the garden. They are plucking out thorns and casting out evil birds, and doing their best to multiply and spread that which God made good all over the earth.
The darkness is trying so hard right now to put out those flames. They trying to cover them up, hide them in dungeons, crush them.
But still the work goes on in the garden. A little church here, a forum there. Spreading the good news, that God is coming back for his garden.
And not only his garden but the whole earth. And the darkness which covered the face of the deep will be no more.
And just like Abraham who had faith and saw the promise afar off. We too must keep faith that that promise is nearer, even at the door.
Just because we can't "see it" doesn't make it so.
That's why we walk by faith and not by sight, because we believe what God said.
And God saw everything that he had made and it was very good.
Jhn 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
It's dark out there... and it's always darkest before the dawn.
Believe and ye shall recieve.
Hugs
Davy
Well-Known Member
Davy
Well-Known Member
Firstly, I agree 100% with the OP. Christ's LITERAL PHYSICAL Kingdom is still yet to come.
However, there is a 'temporary' kingdom on earth today under Jesus Christ. I'm not going to go too deep about it, because it's just going to confuse folks. When I say a 'temporary kingdom' I mean that literally, in the physical sense. But it is NOT Christ's future prophesied Kingdom still yet to come on earth, which will only happen when Jesus literally returns in the future.
Thing about it, Christ's enemies well know about this 'temporary kingdom' under Christ on earth today, and for centuries have been trying to destroy it. They just have not been able to. So Christ's enemies instead have been busy deceiving it to help work towards Lucifer's eventual plan of his being setup in Jerusalem as "king of the world" by deceived Jews.
In Genesis 49:10, Jacob gave a prophecy for the 'last days' to his son Judah, the king tribe. He said the royal sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh (Jesus) come, and to Him shall the gathering of the people be.
That means one of the tribe of Judah, of the house of David, is to remain on the throne of Israel, on earth, until ALL generations, all the way up to Christ Jesus' future 2nd coming. It means the throne of David is STILL somewhere manifested on this earth, and that is the throne Jesus is to inherit when He returns.
We know that throne ended in Jerusalem with Zedekiah, king of Judah, during the destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, in the days of Jeremiah the prophet. And Zedekiah's son heirs all perished then, ending the throne in Jerusalem, and never setup up there again to this day. Yet Jeremiah escaped that captivity along with the "king's daughters", per the Book of Jeremiah.
However, there is a 'temporary' kingdom on earth today under Jesus Christ. I'm not going to go too deep about it, because it's just going to confuse folks. When I say a 'temporary kingdom' I mean that literally, in the physical sense. But it is NOT Christ's future prophesied Kingdom still yet to come on earth, which will only happen when Jesus literally returns in the future.
Thing about it, Christ's enemies well know about this 'temporary kingdom' under Christ on earth today, and for centuries have been trying to destroy it. They just have not been able to. So Christ's enemies instead have been busy deceiving it to help work towards Lucifer's eventual plan of his being setup in Jerusalem as "king of the world" by deceived Jews.
In Genesis 49:10, Jacob gave a prophecy for the 'last days' to his son Judah, the king tribe. He said the royal sceptre will not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh (Jesus) come, and to Him shall the gathering of the people be.
That means one of the tribe of Judah, of the house of David, is to remain on the throne of Israel, on earth, until ALL generations, all the way up to Christ Jesus' future 2nd coming. It means the throne of David is STILL somewhere manifested on this earth, and that is the throne Jesus is to inherit when He returns.
We know that throne ended in Jerusalem with Zedekiah, king of Judah, during the destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, in the days of Jeremiah the prophet. And Zedekiah's son heirs all perished then, ending the throne in Jerusalem, and never setup up there again to this day. Yet Jeremiah escaped that captivity along with the "king's daughters", per the Book of Jeremiah.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Yes! The true disciples of Jesus Christ have done exactly what those prophetic words in Isaiah said...they have already laid down their weapons and refuse to "learn war anymore". Whilst Christendom continues to fight with their clergy's sanction, it is appalling to see so-called "Christians" putting their patriotism before their obedience to Christ who plainly told us...
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". (Matthew 5:43-44)
I heard President Putin quoting scripture the other day, and we know that he is in the pocket of the Russian Orthodox church. Then we see the US President who also claims to be "Christian" providing war weapons to Ukraine and supporting the killing of "Christians" in another nation. If these are all "Christians" where is their obedience to Christ?
Luke 6:44-46...
"For each tree is known by its own fruit. For people do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil person out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.
46 “Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?"
Isn't it a good way to tell who the real "Christians" are? What is the fruitage on both sides? Anything but Christian! Its all talk.
Isaiah 2:2...
"Now it will come about that
In the last days The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
Absolutely and people of all nations are "streaming" to it."
This is taking place in the "last days" which the world of mankind is experiencing right now. This is the time when true Christians will stand out from the false Christians who are shedding innocent blood.
"So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you offer many prayers,
I will not be listening.
Your hands are covered with blood." (Isaiah 1:15)
Do those in Christendom wonder why their prayers for peace go unanswered?
Davy
Well-Known Member
The Communists probably would sure love you for that FALSE message.
In Luke 22, Jesus told His disciples that were getting ready to go on the open road to preach The Gospel to go buy a sword for those who didn't have one.
This means He gave His servants a God-given right to bear arms to defend themselves; it cannot be taken away by man. This also means the event of His telling His disciples to love their enemies and turn the other cheek was NOT about physical defense, but about those who decry for preaching The Gospel. In the middle east it was common to smack on the cheek or somewhere on the head as an attempt to shame the victim. Jesus said offer those the other cheek also. But for a murderer coming at you with a knife trying to kill you, BREAK OUT YOUR SWORD PATRIOT, and prepare to defend thyself, and thy loved ones, AND thy nation!
And you know what? One of the BIGGEST battles is coming up for those of us that are to be delivered up to give a Witness for Christ against the coming world 'beast' system. It won't be with literal weapons, but by The Holy Spirit (Matthew 13). Jesus said don't premeditate what we will say in that hour, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to speak. The whole world will hear it, as those trials likely will be televised by the world beast system to all nations. God's Word by The Holy Spirit is the GREATEST WEAPON against Satan and his host.
So don't even start thinking the war is over before the final battle hasn't even yet begun.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
so what happened when Peter used his sword?
And what happened to the one that sold his garment to buy one?
2 swords right? Peter and the one who ran away naked as a bluejay.
And what happened to the one that sold his garment to buy one?
2 swords right? Peter and the one who ran away naked as a bluejay.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
12 apostles and 2 swords.....against an armed mob......does that sound like a showdown to you?
Why would Jesus tell his disciples that 2 swords were enough? Enough for what?
And when Peter used his sword to wound the High Priests servant, why did Jesus rebuke him and heal the man?
There is a story right there.....the swords were not to be used, but to demonstrate that though they were armed, they would not resort to violence.
There was no need.....it was all fulfilling prophesy. Jesus told Peter to put his sword away, that "whoever lives by the sword will die by the sword".
Substitute the word "gun" for sword and you have described the obsessive gun violence seen in the USA. Christians do not need to resort to violence....we have put down our weapons and refused to "learn war anymore" just as Isaiah foretold.
That sounds a little strange from a Berean. The Bible does not teach Universalism, and that is what this sounds like. "Bringing divine wrath and judgment to all" who love not the truth and have not obeyed the Gospel, is what we find in Scripture.
Getting back to "thy Kingdom come" we know that a day will come when all the kingdoms of this world will be destroyed by Christ, and that He will then establish the Kingdom of God on earth. It will be a literal, visible, physical and spiritual Kingdom.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
See above, post #35. Why did Jesus tell them to buy swords? Why was 2 "enough" when they were facing an armed mob? It was not to use them in violence because they did not need to defend him. Did he not tell Peter that he had twelve legions of angels if he needed them? (Matthew 26:52-53)
Sorry, but your justification isn't valid.
Nonsense.....Jesus' disciples were not armed for the whole of Jesus' earthly ministry. So your declaration is empty....Jesus never once advocated armed violence for his disciples. You cannot "love your enemies" with a weapon. And if you are arrested, you are to offer no resistance....Just as Jesus and the apostles demonstrated.
What did he tell his disciples?...
"For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 16:25) If you disobey Christ to save your own life....you will lose out on everlasting life. Why do you think the first Christians were martyred?
A slap across the face is an insult in most cultures....but it was not to be a provocation for violence under any circumstances.
Hebrews 10:34-36...
"But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, 33 partly by being made a public spectacle through insults and distress, and partly by becoming companions with those who were so treated. 34 For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better and lasting possession."
No one resorted to violence.
Romans 12:17-21...
"Never repay evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all people. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all people. 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
Argue with the scriptures....never are we to repay evil for evil....we are to overcome the evil with the good. That is the mark of a true Christian.
Do you really believe that God is not in full control of our situation, and is watching to see who demonstrates their faith as instructed. Will we pass the test? The patriots won't.
Yes, just like the first century Christians had to endure the hardship and persecution brought upon them by satan's minions.....
The wars of the nations are just that....they are nothing to do with us or God because as 1 John 5:19 says..."We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one."
Satan is the ruler of this world and God is giving him and those who disobey the Christ.....enough rope.....
If you understand the context in which this was stated as well as what those words actually mean, you will not make the mistake of thinking that Christ will NOT establish Kingdom on earth. Just reading John 18:36 should make it clear that what Jesus was saying is that His Kingdom is TOTALLY UNLIKE any worldly kingdom. "Not from hence" or "not from here" means that it not an earthly kingdom but originates in Heaven, therefore it has divine authority. It is God the Father who hands over the Kingdom of God to Christ, so that He will be King of kings and Lord of lords.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
I understand Be, they are not spoken of often, in fact only once I think. From the time God selected a covenanted people He put in place governing people, and it never changed. At the beginning it was Moses, then became prophets, priests, kings, and during Jesus' day the Sanhedrin was the highest authority on earth. When Jesus instituted the new covenant, the faithful apostles were placed over the Christian congregation. Perhaps you remember there was a dividing issue over circumcision? Paul had to go to Jerusalem to them to get a ruling on it, so we can see by this example, there were those who governed the congregations. The account is recorded for us in Acts 15 beginning in verse 22. After the death of the apostles, we went into a period of apostasy, where Christianity basically went by the wayside sir, but after Jesus was enthroned as King, we entered into the last days, and God's people started being regathered Isa 2:2,3 and Jesus assigned a faithful slave to shepherd his sheep Mat 24:45-47. They are the ones who govern us today.
