Why Do People Believe In This?

[Grailhunter]

No offense but I don't think that there was any information at all. At least in the Bible. I don't have any reason to believe that she had romantic feelings for Him or vice versa. Somebody just made it up and other people believed it but it's not in the Bible so I don't believe it.

Her reaction to seeing Christ after He resurrected was like no one else. The Apostles did not react in a positive manner. Still no love letters...LOL

 

[April_Rose]

Her reaction to seeing Christ after He resurrected was like no one else. The Apostles did not react in a positive manner. Still no love letters...LOL

Again,.. where is this written in the Bible?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Hey Paul!
A lot of people would like to have their cake and eat it to. I think it is human nature.
They don't want Yahweh having sex with Miriam....but they want Yeshua to be the Son of God. They would be insulted if someone said that Christ was a zap! Created Being. Or if Yahweh transported Yeshua....Scotty probably did it...Yahweh just ordered him to.

The Bible gives all the terms for a near normal process...but they hate that...it is near to a mental thing...mental conditioning--mental quagmire, it is a very serious condition. Christians believes sex is dirty, nasty, and sinful, so of course they have issues with God doing it. The mental issue with sex got to a point of a complete break down of all other morals. If sex is dirty, nasty, and sinful...then it is of the devil. In a male dominate religion...society if sex tempts good men to perdition...then the instrument that the devil uses against men is WOMEN. Of course the next step is witches...for near to a thousand years the Church was torturing and cutting off those parts of the female body that tempted good men. 2 or 3 million. So as far as I am concerned the whole thing against procreation is a form of insanity.

I do not believe in the one God thing...what happened here, did Christ impregnate Miriam with Himself? Did God give all authority to Himself. Did god so loved the world that He gave Himself? Was Yahweh crucified?...non-sense! The silliness of this goes on and on. I believe in the Trinity as three Gods united. Yahweh--Yeshua--"Holy Spirit" LOL no name. I believe sexual morality is a matter of respect for God and ourselves and each other. God created attraction...God created desire, God created sexual stimulation, and God created the process of sexual union and impregnation and Satan was not even consulted.

The humorous side of this is that, the only thing they can agree on, is that God could not have had sex with Miriam. They cannot agree on how they think it happened. LOL That is so funny! For one, the Bible is not going to support much of anything they would suggest...all the terms are there and it progressed as conception, a pregnancy and a delivery. The Church thought that the female genitalia was so nasty that they could not stand the imagery of Yahweh touching the female genitalia, or Christ passing through the genitals. So they came up with the belief that she was a virgin before she was impregnated, after she conceived, and after she delivered Christ. Beamed Him in and beamed Him out I guess! They referred to her as the Virgin Mary...even though that term does not occur in the Bible. The Church even opposed paintings of Christ suckling His mothers breasts...those dirty nasty breasts! He would never touch them! People are weird!

So I go with what is described in the Bible. Not that I believe that the whole thing was exactly how we would do it, but something close. Close enough that Christ is the real Son of God delivered by a woman. God came up with the terms and relationship of Father and Son, and you cannot have a son without sex. God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Gave His only begotten self for those "one God" believers.

Delivered by a woman...the plan was to deliver the Savior of the world by a woman. As far as I am concerned, it was the first indication of how important women would be to Christ, His ministry, and to Christianity. God touched a woman. It certainly was not a testimonial that sex is of the devil.

I appreciate your very interesting post!
Mormonism teaches that God the Father is some kind of humanoid rather than the Bible description of Him being a Spirit who has "been seen of no man". It all goes along with the crazy teaching that a man and a woman can have a celestial marriage, go to another planet and be the gods of it, populating that planet and then starting the process all over again. All this teaching, which some Mormons faithfully believe, looks like a L. Ron Hubbard science fantasy novel!

 

[Grailhunter]

I appreciate your very interesting post!
Mormonism teaches that God the Father is some kind of humanoid rather than the Bible description of Him being a Spirit who has "been seen of no man". It all goes along with the crazy teaching that a man and a woman can have a celestial marriage, go to another planet and be the gods of it, populating that planet and then starting the process all over again. All this teaching, which some Mormons faithfully believe, looks like a L. Ron Hubbard science fantasy novel!

There is a lot of stuff out there, only limited by the imagination. Ancient alien astronauts and chariots of the gods, draconian reptilians from who knows where. LOL

And as far as God...God is God and there is no one like Him and He has no limits....not even sex. LOL

 

[Grailhunter]

Again,.. where is this written in the Bible?

LOL Surely you remember that He has to reminder that she cannot touch him. You want a verse?

John 20:15 - 17
Jesus *said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Thinking that He was the gardener, she *said to Him, “Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you put Him, and I will take Him away.” 16 Jesus *said to her, “Mary!” She turned and *said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher). 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

 

[Paul Christensen]

There is a lot of stuff out there, only limited by the imagination. Ancient alien astronauts and chariots of the gods. LOL

My mother was into UFOs and all that stuff. I think she had "Chariots of the Gods" on her bookshelf. When I was 14, I got sick and was in bed for three weeks. I read many of the books on mum's bookcase, and, believe me, she was into some crazy stuff!

 

[Grailhunter]

My mother was into UFOs and all that stuff. I think she had "Chariots of the Gods" on her bookshelf. When I was 14, I got sick and was in bed for three weeks. I read many of the books on mum's bookcase, and, believe me, she was into some crazy stuff!

Believers...even Christians...It is one thing to be in the state of faith....a wonderful thing.
But if you have had a divine experience(s)...that is a different level.
UFO's ask the pilots....fighter pilots off the east coast. And I have seen them but there is a whole lot of things that are automatically read into them. I have seen some things that I cannot explain...so they are unidentified objects flying in the air...UFO.
I have never seen a Bigfoot...I live in an area where there are a lot of sightings. I am good with saying they do not exist. But if I do see one, I am not going to try to convince him that he does not exist.
The ability to consider things that are not normal...everyone is different with that. Try going out to the vortexes of Oregon...you will get a taste of it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Believers...even Christians...It is one thing to be in the state of faith....a wonderful thing.
But if you have had a divine experience(s)...that is a different level.
UFO's ask the pilots....fighter pilots off the east coast. And I have seen them but there is a whole lot of things that are automatically read into them. I have seen some things that I cannot explain...so they are unidentified objects flying in the air...UFO.
I have never seen a Bigfoot...I live in an area where there are a lot of sightings. I am good with saying they do not exist. But if I do see one, I am not going to try to convince him that he does not exist.
The ability to consider things that are not normal...everyone is different with that. Try going out to the vortexes of Oregon...you will get a taste of it.

I have some crazy dreams at times, so I think I got a taste of it!

 

[Grailhunter]

I have some crazy dreams at times, so I think I got a taste of it!

Dreams are another matter. Significant dreams are in the storyline of the Bible. From that people conclude different things. Dreamology.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

(Actual practicing "Mormon" here)

Mormon doctrine states that the Father had sex with Mary and impregnated her, resulting in the birth of Jesus. Interesting. According to this doctrine, I would guess that Mormons would reject the virgin birth of Christ, because if the Father had sex with Mary, then she would no longer be a virgin.

(I just like putting a spanner in the works in a thread like this. )

Actually, LDS Christians believe that Jesus Christ was conceived within the virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, as described in Luke.

There are different branches of Mormanism, and there certainly is teaching supporting the Father having sex with Mary. Perhaps you are referring to a branch of Mormanism that doesn't teach that.

99.9% of the time when somebody uses the term "Mormon" they are referring to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Again, which believe that Mary was a virgin and Christ conceived by the Holy Spirit.
The groups that have broken away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, such as Warren Jeff's group, are COMPLETELY separate: radically different beliefs, different scriptures, different practices, and consider the other to be excommunicate apostates.

I appreciate your very interesting post!
Mormonism teaches that God the Father is some kind of humanoid rather than the Bible description of Him being a Spirit who has "been seen of no man". It all goes along with the crazy teaching that a man and a woman can have a celestial marriage, go to another planet and be the gods of it, populating that planet and then starting the process all over again. All this teaching, which some Mormons faithfully believe, looks like a L. Ron Hubbard science fantasy novel!

That's completely distorted as to no longer resemble actual LDS Christian beliefs.

I can understand that the public "face" of the LDS church wouldn't want prospective "recruits" to know some of the secret doctrines of the church. Many central doctrines are not taught to Mormon missionaries because if prospective converts knew some of the very way-out doctrines, they would be spooked right away from it.

Of course it would come up in the official literature of the LDS church. One has to have been converted to Mormanism and has been promoted to higher levels before being introduced into some of the deeper teachings of the church. I think these "deeper" doctrines are part of the central Temple faction of the church. Because Joseph Smith was heavily into the Masons, the structure of the church is very similar to Masonic levels of higher orders. In fact, inside the Temple in Salt Lake City, where the public cannot enter, Masonic symbols are prevalent.

I have now derailed the thread! I hope the OP doesn't mind his thread going in such a weird direction!

I'm sorry, but that's a complete fiction invented by "anti-cultists" . You're way better than that junk Paul. Disagree with beliefs all you want, but disagree with ACTUAL beliefs and not the fiction sold in "anti-cult" books. Nobody believes that fiction except for the poor chump whom bought the "anti cult" book (literally or figuratively).

That explains why @Grailhunter might believe that then as I didn't realize that it was a Mormon belief and for the record I don't find this thread has really gone off topic.

@Grailhunter isn't a "Mormon" or more correctly, member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. With all due respect to him, a lot of the things he posts I, as an LDS Christian, PASSIONATLY disagree with.

 

[Grailhunter]

(Actual practicing "Mormon" here)

Actually, LDS Christians believe that Jesus Christ was conceived within the virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, as described in Luke.

99.9% of the time when somebody uses the term "Mormon" they are referring to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Again, which believe that Mary was a virgin and Christ conceived by the Holy Spirit.
The groups that have broken away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, such as Warren Jeff's group, are COMPLETELY separate: radically different beliefs, different scriptures, different practices, and consider the other to be excommunicate apostates.

That's completely distorted as to no longer resemble actual LDS Christian beliefs.


I'm sorry, but that's a complete fiction invented by "anti-cultists" . You're way better than that junk Paul. Disagree with beliefs all you want, but disagree with ACTUAL beliefs and not the fiction sold in "anti-cult" books. Nobody believes that fiction except for the poor chump whom bought the "anti cult" book (literally or figuratively).

@Grailhunter isn't a "Mormon" or more correctly, member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. With all due respect to him, a lot of the things he posts I, as an LDS Christian, PASSIONATLY disagree with.

I my not be a member of the Mormon church...LDS...But I am a lover of Mormons...LOL. And I know just enough about their theology to stick my foot in my mouth...so I do not get into that much. I have read their primary books and had a black guy throw one at me when I was on submarines...Good friend of mine...

As with any clandestine organization ... that leaves people an open door to write their book about something they know little about.
If you want to know the most important things about Mormons...go hang with them. You make a friend with a Mormon and you have a friend for life. I have friends now that I knew when they were young travelling missionaries and they used my house as a safe haven against weather or whatever.

I love Mormons and I love Catholics but I am not interested in the leadership side of the Church.

 

[Paul Christensen]

(Actual practicing "Mormon" here)

Actually, LDS Christians believe that Jesus Christ was conceived within the virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, as described in Luke.

99.9% of the time when somebody uses the term "Mormon" they are referring to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Again, which believe that Mary was a virgin and Christ conceived by the Holy Spirit.
The groups that have broken away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, such as Warren Jeff's group, are COMPLETELY separate: radically different beliefs, different scriptures, different practices, and consider the other to be excommunicate apostates.

That's completely distorted as to no longer resemble actual LDS Christian beliefs.


I'm sorry, but that's a complete fiction invented by "anti-cultists" . You're way better than that junk Paul. Disagree with beliefs all you want, but disagree with ACTUAL beliefs and not the fiction sold in "anti-cult" books. Nobody believes that fiction except for the poor chump whom bought the "anti cult" book (literally or figuratively).

@Grailhunter isn't a "Mormon" or more correctly, member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. With all due respect to him, a lot of the things he posts I, as an LDS Christian, PASSIONATLY disagree with.

The information I received from the "anti-cult" book about the LDS church was from the writings of the founders and from prominent presidents of the church themselves, rather than from the opinion of the author. Also the Father/Mary sex, celestial marriages and populating other planets as "gods" are included in a booklet published by the LDS church to educate children in the doctrines of the church. Before you start demanding proof, your fingers are as good as mine for using Google to find those documents.

So, what you are saying is that the modern LDS church has departed from the teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and that it no longer complies with the Salt Lake City Temple rituals?

 

[Paul Christensen]

(Actual practicing "Mormon" here)

Actually, LDS Christians believe that Jesus Christ was conceived within the virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, as described in Luke.

99.9% of the time when somebody uses the term "Mormon" they are referring to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Again, which believe that Mary was a virgin and Christ conceived by the Holy Spirit.
The groups that have broken away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, such as Warren Jeff's group, are COMPLETELY separate: radically different beliefs, different scriptures, different practices, and consider the other to be excommunicate apostates.

That's completely distorted as to no longer resemble actual LDS Christian beliefs.


I'm sorry, but that's a complete fiction invented by "anti-cultists" . You're way better than that junk Paul. Disagree with beliefs all you want, but disagree with ACTUAL beliefs and not the fiction sold in "anti-cult" books. Nobody believes that fiction except for the poor chump whom bought the "anti cult" book (literally or figuratively).

@Grailhunter isn't a "Mormon" or more correctly, member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. With all due respect to him, a lot of the things he posts I, as an LDS Christian, PASSIONATLY disagree with.

I was wondering whether you would pop up in response to my comments about Mormonism. I have always enjoyed it when you have entered a discussion.

Dave Hunt wrote a very interesting book about Mormonism (the "anti-cult" book I was referring to). Why don't you either get a copy of the book, or watch his Youtube video to see what he says and who he quotes as the basis of his views, and then comment on them? It would be a very interesting and stimulating discussion.

I think that the last time we had a discussion, and mentioned Dave Hunt, you said that his quotes were taken out of context and were made to say something different to what was actually said. I am not sure whether you said that you had read Dave Hunt's book or not. I think we can have a discussion without us trying to convert each other.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The information I received from the "anti-cult" book about the LDS church was from the writings of the founders and from prominent presidents of the church themselves, rather than from the opinion of the author. Also the Father/Mary sex, celestial marriages and populating other planets as "gods" are included in a booklet published by the LDS church to educate children in the doctrines of the church. Before you start demanding proof, your fingers are as good as mine for using Google to find those documents.

So, what you are saying is that the modern LDS church has departed from the teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and that it no longer complies with the Salt Lake City Temple rituals?

I was wondering whether you would pop up in response to my comments about Mormonism. I have always enjoyed it when you have entered a discussion.

Dave Hunt wrote a very interesting book about Mormonism (the "anti-cult" book I was referring to). Why don't you either get a copy of the book, or watch his Youtube video to see what he says and who he quotes as the basis of his views, and then comment on them? It would be a very interesting and stimulating discussion.

I think that the last time we had a discussion, and mentioned Dave Hunt, you said that his quotes were taken out of context and were made to say something different to what was actually said. I am not sure whether you said that you had read Dave Hunt's book or not. I think we can have a discussion without us trying to convert each other.

There's MUCH more to actual real theological study than the ridiculous straw man of "well Joseph Smith said this one thing one time so that must be Mormon doctrine" . Joseph Smith, like all men, was a sinner. LDS Christians don't hold him or anyone else up to automatic infallibility at all.

Those are critically important fact that's conveniently missing from David Hunt's work (and yes I have read it) and others. Where in the author cherry-picks obscure non-authoritative quotes, twists it beyond recognition, completely ignores everything else, and tries to sell that straw man. It's ludicrous hate-filled junk that no Christian (LDS or otherwise) needs. Disagree all you want, but do so over REAL differences.

 

[Grailhunter]

I was wondering whether you would pop up in response to my comments about Mormonism. I have always enjoyed it when you have entered a discussion.

Dave Hunt wrote a very interesting book about Mormonism (the "anti-cult" book I was referring to). Why don't you either get a copy of the book, or watch his Youtube video to see what he says and who he quotes as the basis of his views, and then comment on them? It would be a very interesting and stimulating discussion.

I think that the last time we had a discussion, and mentioned Dave Hunt, you said that his quotes were taken out of context and were made to say something different to what was actually said. I am not sure whether you said that you had read Dave Hunt's book or not. I think we can have a discussion without us trying to convert each other.

Paul,
I am counting on you to be smart.
What do you think the definition of a cult is?
Professional intervention services....what religions do you keep them busy?
Do you think that the twelve Apostles considered themselves Christians?

 

[April_Rose]

LOL Surely you remember that He has to reminder that she cannot touch him. You want a verse?

John 20:15 - 17
Jesus *said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” Thinking that He was the gardener, she *said to Him, “Sir, if you have carried Him away, tell me where you put Him, and I will take Him away.” 16 Jesus *said to her, “Mary!” She turned and *said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher). 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

Fair enough.

 

[Paul Christensen]

There's MUCH more to actual real theological study than the ridiculous straw man of "well Joseph Smith said this one thing one time so that must be Mormon doctrine" . Joseph Smith, like all men, was a sinner. LDS Christians don't hold him or anyone else up to automatic infallibility at all.

Those are critically important fact that's conveniently missing from David Hunt's work (and yes I have read it) and others. Where in the author cherry-picks obscure non-authoritative quotes, twists it beyond recognition, completely ignores everything else, and tries to sell that straw man. It's ludicrous hate-filled junk that no Christian (LDS or otherwise) needs. Disagree all you want, but do so over REAL differences.

What would interest me are the actual quotes that Dave Hunt included which you think are non-authoritative and twisted. I am not intending to shoot you down, rather to open it up for discussion.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What would interest me are the actual quotes that Dave Hunt included which you think are non-authoritative and twisted. I am not intending to shoot you down, rather to open it up for discussion.

Everything he's written?
Or do you want one of the many many examples?

And should we move this to PM to avoid further thread-jacking?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Paul,
I am counting on you to be smart.
What do you think the definition of a cult is?
Professional intervention services....what religions do you keep them busy?
Do you think that the twelve Apostles considered themselves Christians?

I'm going to assume that your questions are not loaded in the sense that you have your own answers already.

My definition of a cult is a religious organisation built on a personality (such as Kenny Copeland) or a teaching from a person (such as Ellen White's books). This is distinct from a heresy, which is a false teaching from an individual within the established orthodox church. It is interesting that the Jewish religious authorities considered the early Christian church as a cult, but considered Jesus as a heretic who should be stoned. The English and American Puritans would have viewed the RCC, as well as the Quakers as cults. But the New England Presbyterians considered Charles Finney's teaching as heresy in the way he invited sinners to use their power of choice to decide for Christ instead of the Presbyterian way of waiting for the Holy Spirit to do it.

My friend Jane Doe22 would not consider the LDS church as a cult, but as the true church in the same way as the RCCs would consider their church as exclusively true.

So, according to my way of thinking, any church that considers it the exclusively true church while every other church is false, could very well be defined as a cult. I spent nine years in a city Charismatic church that considered itself part of the true body of Christ and that other churches in the city should align themselves with it if they are to be considered as part of the true bride of Christ. Looking back, I would now consider that church as being cultish in its attitude. This is the same attitude as many Pentecostals who consider Pentecostalism as the "full gospel" while non-Pentecostal churches are "dead" as far as Holy Spirit involvement is concerned. That, in my mind, is cultish. Now, don't get me wrong. I have a Pentecostal theology, but I am not a Pentecostalist. I consider the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit as Bible and available to any church that desires to embrace them.

I can't really answer your next question, because I haven't done any research on it. I know that when I left the Pentecostalist movement, it took me a couple of years to be "de-programmed" and to fully accept other evangelical churches as being just as part of the body of Christ as the Pentecostal ones. As part of my work as District Court Victim Advisor, I was to attend monthly counselling appointments to ensure that the role wasn't affecting me mentally and emotionally. I had a good Christian professional counsellor, and she and I had great sessions which were very helpful. I think that those who were having to be "de-programmed" after leaving a cultish movement would benefit from professional intervention counselling services.

In the early stages of the church, the term "Christian" was unknown. I think the first definition used was "The Way". I think that the word "Christian" was coined as a derogatory term used by pagans who saw that believers were passionately aligned to Christ. As with many initial derogatory definitions, the church took on the name to identify it as the type of church that it is. It is the same with the word "Methodist". That was a derogatory term used by the established church for the followers of Wesley, but the denomination took the name on board to identify it. So I think that the Apostles would have described themselves as the followers of the Way of Christ to initially distinguish themselves from Judaism.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Everything he's written?
Or do you want one of the many many examples?

And should we move this to PM to avoid further thread-jacking?

As the OP has said in response to my apology for hijacking her thread, she doesn't mind at all; so as long as she doesn't mind, we can keep going on this one. If she decides that the thread has run its course, or good discussion has turned into a useless debate, then she has the freedom to lock the thread from further comments.

Let's start with just a couple of examples. One way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. Long posts with multiple points just weary me just by reading them and frustrating to try and respond to. But just a couple of points at a time keeps the discussion going, and allows others to join in. But remember this, I would not support any others getting out their silver pistols just to shoot you down for what you believe. That is called kicking the person instead of the ball. And kicking other players in a football match gets a red card and sent off!