Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

[GISMYS_7]

Anyone that "thinks" they are saved no matter what they believe or not believe because they think they are the elect are in big trouble.

 

[ScottA]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

The “Reformed/Calvinists” teach, that God has from eternity past, before the foundation of the world, “elected” some to eternal life, while damning the rest of the human race to eternal punishment. These “elect” have been “chosen” in Jesus Christ, and they WILL come to faith in the Lord. God has so “Enabled” their “will”, that they cannot “reject” His “Saving Grace”, and WILL be saved.

IF, this teaching is Biblical, then why do we read, for example, in the context of salvation, Paul say in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, “Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we PERSUADE men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences” (verse 11)? The word “persuade” means, “to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action. To plead with”. IF, the “men” here means only the “elect”, who WILL come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ, then WHY do these need to be PLEADED with? Not only so, but Paul goes on to say, “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were PLEADING (παρακᾰλέω, invite, appeal to, encourage, exhort) through us: we implore (δέομαι, long for, beg) you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God” (verse 20).

It is ABSURD that those who have been PREDESTINED before the foundation of the world, to be the ELECT of God, who WILL come to Jesus for salvation, because God has to DETERMINED it, should be PLEADED with, and APPEALED to, and EXHORTED, and BEGGED, to be “RECONCILED” with God.

In Luke 13:24, Jesus Himself says, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”. The Greek verb used here, “ἀγωνίζομαι”, for CONTENDING, FIGHTING, STRUGGLE. Or, as the Christian Standard Bible reads, “Make every effort”.

This language shows beyond any doubt, to those who don’t have a theological bent, that both Paul and Jesus Christ are speaking to the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and NOT only the ELECT! The ELECT have no FREE WILL of their own, and really have NO SAY in whether they are saved or not, as God has already DETERMINED this for them, even before the world was Created. So we are told by the “Reformed/Calvinists”.

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

These issues of the Word are like facts on the head of a pin:

They are expanded over time for revelation and understanding, not for literal/worldly translation.

Knowing that God is above the world and His ways higher than the would-be timelines that would appear to be here-- we should be able to conclude that with God there is actually no "before the foundation of the world", but rather that these things simply "are", because we are created in His timeless likeness--not as the world perceives, but as "I am."

Therefore, do not be confounded by the words as the world is confounded, but see all things as He sees, as in His likeness.

What then can be said of any of these issues? A thousand errors confused by word, but one truth in Spirit.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Know WHY the "elect" are the elect =because God knows they will choose to believe.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Is Jesus the Word of God or is the written text we know as the Bible the word of God?

OR: Are THEY Both The "Logos" (Word) Of God? ie:

The Living Word Of God, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!
and:
The Written Word Of God, The Scriptures!

GRACE And Peace...

 

[farouk]

OR: Are THEY Both The "Logos" (Word) Of God? ie:

The Living Word Of God, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!
and:
The Written Word Of God, The Scriptures!

GRACE And Peace...

The central theme of the written Word of God is the living and eternal Word Himself.... :)

 

[quietthinker]

The God of the Bible is Sovereign, which means that He can and does as He pleases, and is accountable to no one. He can destroy a complete nation should He choose to, as in the rebellion of Korah in Numbers 16, where we read, "the earth to open her mouth and swallow him and all that appertained to them" (32). And in everything that God does, He is 100% Just and Justified in His Actions!

Pslam 135:5-6,

"For I know that the Lord is great, And our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places"

Daniel 4:34-35,

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:.And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?”

AMEN!

In other words, he is arbitrary?

 

[Enoch111]

In other words, he is arbitrary?

God's ways are not our ways, neither are His thoughts our thoughts. So the less said the better.

 

[quietthinker]

OR: Are THEY Both The "Logos" (Word) Of God? ie:

The Living Word Of God, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!
and:
The Written Word Of God, The Scriptures!

GRACE And Peace...

Some of the things written in OT scriptures hardly reflect the behaviour of a God of love as manifested in the incarnation
So, how do we understand two obviously different attitudes?

 

[quietthinker]

God's ways are not our ways, neither are His thoughts our thoughts. So the less said the better.

nahhh, that answer doesn't wash Enoch.
Using that argument to justify the obviously contradictory sets you up to justify any atrocity.....and whats more, it's banging the pot Satan has been banging for a long time.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Some of the things written in OT scriptures hardly reflect the behaviour of a God of love as manifested in the incarnation
So, how do we understand two obviously different attitudes?

Guess I will have to defer that to the Great Statement in post # 27

 

[GISMYS_7]

Do we little men really dare question the love. fairness, goodness, perfection of Almighty God??? NOT VERY SMART!!!

 

[quietthinker]

Do we little men really dare question the love. fairness, goodness, perfection of Almighty God??? NOT VERY SMART!!!

Do we little men have the right to straight answers when it comes to the truth of God's character ?

 

[GISMYS_7]

What little men doubt the charter of Almighty God??

 

[amadeus]

Do we little men really dare question the love. fairness, goodness, perfection of Almighty God??? NOT VERY SMART!!!

Do we not hear His voice rather than the voice of strangers? To do otherwise is really not very smart? Who is it that hears His voice? Who is it that follows His lead?

 

[quietthinker]

What little men doubt the charter of Almighty God??

Little men are persuaded by either of two views ie, God is arbitrary and selfish and he has the sovereign right to be because he is God or, he is a self sacrificing God in whom is no selfishness whatsoever even to the point of allowing his creatures to murder him....yes, a vulnerable God because he loves way beyond our narrow fallen human view.

 

[Enoch111]

nahhh, that answer doesn't wash Enoch.
Using that argument to justify the obviously contradictory sets you up to justify any atrocity.....and whats more, it's banging the pot Satan has been banging for a long time.

Satan has nothing to do with this matter. The Bible is a factual record of the history of Israel as well as how God deals with wickedness and idolatry. Once we get a grasp of the absolute holiness and righteousness of God, we see that sin and idolatry are totally abhorrent to Him and He deals with them as only God can. What you may regard as an atrocity God sees as divine justice. But as we know from Scripture God gives evildoers several opportunities to repent before he unleashes His wrath. The best example are the Ten Plagues of Egypt. You could call them atrocities if you were a hypocritical bleeding heart liberal. But they were expressions of God's wrath against evil and against the unrepentant heart of Pharaoh.

The interesting thing about liberals (not saying you are one) is that they love "virtue signaling" but when push comes to shove, it is all about the hatred in their hearts for God, for righteousness, and for justice. As we can now see, the so-called "liberals" are the real monsters in the world. Take clueless Justin "Fidelito" Trudeau in Canada (where I live) as an example. Because his stupid and delusional policies about COVID were opposed by law-abiding patriotic citizens (ordinary working class salt-of the-earth people), he called them every vile name, and just about tore up the Constitution of Canada in order to establish Trudeau Tyranny. And it ain't over.

 

[quietthinker]

Satan has nothing to do with this matter. The Bible is a factual record of the history of Israel as well as how God deals with wickedness and idolatry. Once we get a grasp of the absolute holiness and righteousness of God, we see that sin and idolatry are totally abhorrent to Him and He deals with them as only God can. What you may regard as an atrocity God sees as divine justice. But as we know from Scripture God gives evildoers several opportunities to repent before he unleashes His wrath. The best example are the Ten Plagues of Egypt. You could call them atrocities if you were a hypocritical bleeding heart liberal. But they were expressions of God's wrath against evil and against the unrepentant heart of Pharaoh.

The interesting thing about liberals (not saying you are one) is that they love "virtue signaling" but when push comes to shove, it is all about the hatred in their hearts for God, for righteousness, and for justice. As we can now see, the so-called "liberals" are the real monsters in the world. Take clueless Justin "Fidelito" Trudeau in Canada (where I live) as an example. Because his stupid and delusional policies about COVID were opposed by law-abiding patriotic citizens (ordinary working class salt-of the-earth people), he called them every vile name, and just about tore up the Constitution of Canada in order to establish Trudeau Tyranny. And it ain't over.

I see you confusing worldly politics with the character of God Enoch, when the two have nothing in common.

 

[ScottA]

How do you reconcile commands for genocide in certain OT writings and the revelation of God in Jesus ?

It is as He has said:

• We are mere creations, clay.

• What potter keeps all his creations, good and evil?

• And who would find contradiction in keeping some, and destroying the rest?

...However...like Geppetto-- the One He loves He makes into a real boy ;)

 

[quietthinker]

It is as He has said:

• We are mere creations, clay.

• What potter keeps all his creations, good and evil?

• And who would find contradiction in keeping some, and destroying the rest?

...However...like Geppetto-- the One He loves He makes into a real boy ;)

That's no reconciliation Scott. It's an attempted justification for contradiction.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This means that the Gospel Message is not really Good News, because sinner need, over time, to be CONVINCED that it is Good News! WHY would God contniue to CONVINCE sinners, that His Way of salvation is right, and that they need it? Paul says in Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes—the Jew first and also the Gentile". The Gospel is the POWER of God, and CONVICTS and CONVERTS.

Did you get it right away, the first day someone told you about Jesus? It is the Good News. It means that we don't have to die in our sins. It means that there is a solution to our hopeless situation. It took my Father a lifetime to see the Light. Hundreds of experiences, lessons, ups and downs, years of rejecting and resisting the truth. Then finally in his last years he repented.
Rom. 1:16 is true of someone who is already saved!
The Gospel is the power of God. Faith comes by the word. Again did you read through the whole Bible in a few days and say,"Yep, got it, I believe!" Good for you if that is so.
Something happens on that special day we believe, but it took us our whole lives to get there. People hand out tracks on the street, a short Gospel message. It is possible that someone who is ready and has been prepared fpr that divine appointment to receive that and be transformed right there on the spot.